Hello again
- Thread starter Rys
- Start date
Two things I'd like to see:
1) verification - people working in the industry (specifically games, graphics) should be identifiable. I've seen a lot of times where layman, like me, will get in long drawn out arguments with actual game developers because they don't know who they're talking to. Not sure if there is capability for that in this forum, but we have user tags like moderator, supporter. Verification process could be annoying for mods. It would also be good to maybe have some tech threads that are read only for non-verified posters. Let the industry people have their tech talk as they're less likely to engage in the bad behaviours and the rest of us can be flies on the wall. Again, not sure what the capabilities of the forum are.
2)aggressive banning - two strike policy, not three. With a small mod staff, it's just not worth it to keep people around. It's a niche forum and the real value comes from more knowledgeable posters that are willing to answer questions etc. Maybe you could have an unmoderated games thread so people can argue about their favourite games etc, but the general policy for tech threads should be that people get banned aggressively for adding more noise than signal. B3D doesn't need to be a huge community. It just needs to serve a higher quality for its niche (in my opinion). If I get caught in bans, so be it.
I'll consider volunteering for mod. I've been around a long time. I'd probably have a quicker trigger than most, and I know in the past I engaged in some of the behaviours that should get a person banned. Not sure how good a candidate that makes me. I'm older now and just don't have those kinds of strong feelings about games or brands or tech anymore, and I do engage with the forum quite a bit.
For the users on this forum, I think some personal responsibility should be taken to improve the forum and an easy way to do that is to use the ignore feature. If someone gets on your nerves and you find yourself engaging too much, just put them on your ignore list. You're likely not going to miss them.
1) verification - people working in the industry (specifically games, graphics) should be identifiable. I've seen a lot of times where layman, like me, will get in long drawn out arguments with actual game developers because they don't know who they're talking to. Not sure if there is capability for that in this forum, but we have user tags like moderator, supporter. Verification process could be annoying for mods. It would also be good to maybe have some tech threads that are read only for non-verified posters. Let the industry people have their tech talk as they're less likely to engage in the bad behaviours and the rest of us can be flies on the wall. Again, not sure what the capabilities of the forum are.
2)aggressive banning - two strike policy, not three. With a small mod staff, it's just not worth it to keep people around. It's a niche forum and the real value comes from more knowledgeable posters that are willing to answer questions etc. Maybe you could have an unmoderated games thread so people can argue about their favourite games etc, but the general policy for tech threads should be that people get banned aggressively for adding more noise than signal. B3D doesn't need to be a huge community. It just needs to serve a higher quality for its niche (in my opinion). If I get caught in bans, so be it.
I'll consider volunteering for mod. I've been around a long time. I'd probably have a quicker trigger than most, and I know in the past I engaged in some of the behaviours that should get a person banned. Not sure how good a candidate that makes me. I'm older now and just don't have those kinds of strong feelings about games or brands or tech anymore, and I do engage with the forum quite a bit.
For the users on this forum, I think some personal responsibility should be taken to improve the forum and an easy way to do that is to use the ignore feature. If someone gets on your nerves and you find yourself engaging too much, just put them on your ignore list. You're likely not going to miss them.
Figure I'm in a pretty similar place. I've changed a lot and grown a lot over my 20 or so years here, but I still have the odd problem with being a drunken ass so not sure I'd make a great mod.
What I (and anyone else) can do though is speak out in a thread when it's going off the rails, use the report feature, and try to counter negativity with positivity.
The thought of this place going away makes me sad in the way few things do. It's not just that there are still good discussions to be had here, but it's also that this place is one of the last bastions of really enjoying something that I still have in my dull life. I'm sure there are other like me.
@Rys I think we don't always appreciate what you and the other mods have done for us. In the age of polarising algorithms and profit based bubbles of enthralled deluded audiences, it's great to have B3D still be here. We don't always treat the place right.
@BRiT I'm sorry that the burden of keeping us going has taken you to a worse place. Take a break and come back whenever you can and in whatever capacity you want and there are lots of us that will be glad to see you.
1) Can't members put that info in their profile if they want? I don't know if there are limitations for new accounts but for example Rys' says "Graphics @ AMD". Also some might not want this info out there for whatever reason.
The ignore feature can make threads confusing to read. I've only used it once when I felt it was absolutely necessary. The user eventually got banned and I didn't even notice
I don't think it's a good idea to force disclosure of what amounts to private information on anyone. I share mine because it's the right thing for me to do, but it might not be for anyone else (and might well prohibit them from taking part, especially in this day and age). Doing so will always be up to every user.
1) Can't members put that info in their profile if they want? I don't know if there are limitations for new accounts but for example Rys' says "Graphics @ AMD". Also some might not want this info out there for whatever reason.
The ignore feature can make threads confusing to read. I've only used it once when I felt it was absolutely necessary. The user eventually got banned and I didn't even notice
Good points.
Yah, they could put it in their profile. I think having it "official" would make people take more notice. I wouldn't expect the tag on the profile to actually say which company they work for, just that they've been vetted. The tag could literally just say something like "Industry verified". I can also see why some people would forgo the verification because of company policy or just privacy. At the same time, if you're not forthcoming with your experience you can't expect people on a forum to take your word at face value. To them they're just interacting with another forum goer. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Some people should really be able to get hints from the technical depth people go into with their posts.
In terms of the ignore, there are times where I'll see discussions that are choppy because I have someone on ignore. But then if I click to reveal the posts to pick up the missing contexts, I usually find I would have been better off ignoring.
Overall, I just would like to see more developers come back to B3D, especially now that many of them are looking for an alternative to twitter. B3D could be that place, or part of it. I think finding ways to make life easier for the mods so developers feel it's a safer place to come back to would be good for all of us.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Just to chime in on this one part of an overall great post on the state of things and your feelings about it. I'll chime in and say I hope Brit finds it within himself to come back to the forum despite all the negativity that I saw directed at him personally prior to his taking a step back and away from the forum. HIs absence has been notable and at least for me, it has been missed ... as I have missed all of the wonderful moderators we've had over the years that no longer post or contribute to the forum.
I can't help but point out how important this is. A few years ago I started to realize I spent an absolutely inordinate amount of time responding to posts from people trying to get the last word in. I'm pretty sure by that point both of us realized that neither of us was going to change the other's mind. That's the point where I realized that I was also contributing to "last-post-itis" and it wasn't healthy. At some point I realized that just walking away and allowing the other person to have the last post wasn't indicative of me conceding the point. It just meant that we were at loggerheads. Since then, I've made an effort to just walk away from a sub-thread of a conversation at some point as sometimes it devolved into just trying to understand where the other's arguments were coming from and what their intentions were (honest confusion or deliberate misterpretation? Doesn't matter, walk away).
I'm definitely at a better place in my head after I started to do that, and I recommend others to do the same.
I also thought about this long and hard, however, a couple things that pull me away from it.
- In the past I used to be the head of successful "first accomplishment" (first to kill a new boss, for example) guilds in various MMORPGs as well as a respected and highly regarded squad in a top down shooter back in the day (SubSpace). How is that relevant? Well, as head of a "good" and well functioning guild you are basically a moderator and mediator. I remember the headaches with attempting to moderate the direction of the guild while also mediating between guild members. It always got to a point where eventually the dissonance became too much and drew away from the enjoyment of the game to a point where I'd eventually pull away and even just quit playing the MMORPG entirely despite how I loved many of my guildmates and felt it was a family.
- I like the freedom of occasionally being free to have an un-moderator like outburst from time to time. Along with that is a fear that my own predjudices would color how I would or would not moderate a post (either choosing not to moderate an errant post or moderating a post just because I was in a bad mood and disagreed it with).
- Also, I just don't have the time that I used to have. Hence why I also don't post as frequently.
IE - at some point the group becomes larger than just a small group of like minded friends and at that point clashes between different personalities, ideaologies, feelings, language, etc. start to cause disruptions that if left un-moderated become sores in the social fabric of the group eventually leading to rampant toxicity that is at first subversive (just person to person in whispers) that eventually breaks out into full blown public disruptions.
It's a lot to handle, and until one has been in a position of having to deal with it, I can understand how it would be difficult for someone to truly appreciate the scale and need for quality moderation (won't even go into bad moderation which is often a reflection of bad leadership, thankfully not something I've ever seen here at B3D). Nor, how said person might not be able to truly understand how hard being a good moderator can be.
My hats off to the moderation team and Rhys. I wish you all the best and wish you all the best of luck because I've grown to love this forum and was sad when it was closed and even sadder thinking about it being forever gone. Here's knocking on wood hoping that the more confrontational members of the forum learn to tone down not only their contrariness but also learn to use less confrontational language which contrary to what they believe is just going to push people away from your stance ... IE - using confrontational language will never get anyone to agree with the point you are trying to make unless they already agree with it.
Regards,
SB
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If someone is pretending to be someone they're not that should be an easy ban IMO.
As for ignoring or getting the last word, this is something I had to consciously practice a while back. It's pretty normal now for me to bow out if things are heading down the wrong path. Like to think I do a pretty good job of not responding to nonsense as well, though this was also something I had to work on. It goes against my nature.
Brit if you read this you're missed.
Yep, agreed. My suggestion is about finding a way to identify industry people to other users. Again, not about outing which company they work for, but just signifying they have real world experience so people would hopefully engage with them in a more respectful way.
Just to chime in on this one part of an overall great post on the state of things and your feelings about it. I'll chime in and say I hope Brit finds it within himself to come back to the forum despite all the negativity that I saw directed at him personally prior to his taking a step back and away from the forum. HIs absence has been notable and at least for me, it has been missed ... as I have missed all of the wonderful moderators we've had over the years that no longer post or contribute to the forum.
I can't help but point out how important this is. A few years ago I started to realize I spent an absolutely inordinate amount of time responding to posts from people trying to get the last word in. I'm pretty sure by that point both of us realized that neither of us was going to change the other's mind. That's the point where I realized that I was also contributing to "last-post-itis" and it wasn't healthy. At some point I realized that just walking away and allowing the other person to have the last post wasn't indicative of me conceding the point. It just meant that we were at loggerheads. Since then, I've made an effort to just walk away from a sub-thread of a conversation at some point as sometimes it devolved into just trying to understand where the other's arguments were coming from and what their intentions were (honest confusion or deliberate misterpretation? Doesn't matter, walk away).
I'm definitely at a better place in my head after I started to do that, and I recommend others to do the same.
I also thought about this long and hard, however, a couple things that pull me away from it.
Moderating of any sort, whether it be forums, a guild in an MMO, a local user's group, a club, or anything is an unappreciated and unloved role that is absolutely essential to keep things sane whenever things start to get "unsane." I've been on forums and been in guilds and been in clubs where there was no moderation, no guidance, no leadership, etc. and they have almost always been universally unpleasant experiences once the number of people within said group got larger than a small handful of people.
- In the past I used to be the head of successful "first accomplishment" (first to kill a new boss, for example) guilds in various MMORPGs as well as a respected and highly regarded squad in a top down shooter back in the day (SubSpace). How is that relevant? Well, as head of a "good" and well functioning guild you are basically a moderator and mediator. I remember the headaches with attempting to moderate the direction of the guild while also mediating between guild members. It always got to a point where eventually the dissonance became too much and drew away from the enjoyment of the game to a point where I'd eventually pull away and even just quit playing the MMORPG entirely despite how I loved many of my guildmates and felt it was a family.
- I like the freedom of occasionally being free to have an un-moderator like outburst from time to time. Along with that is a fear that my own predjudices would color how I would or would not moderate a post (either choosing not to moderate an errant post or moderating a post just because I was in a bad mood and disagreed it with).
- Also, I just don't have the time that I used to have. Hence why I also don't post as frequently.
IE - at some point the group becomes larger than just a small group of like minded friends and at that point clashes between different personalities, ideaologies, feelings, language, etc. start to cause disruptions that if left un-moderated become sores in the social fabric of the group eventually leading to rampant toxicity that is at first subersive (just person to person in whispers) that eventually breaks out into full blown public disruptions.
It's a lot to handle, and until one has been in a position of having to deal with it, I can understand how it would be difficult for someone to truly appreciate the scale and need for quality moderation (won't even go into bad moderation which is often a reflection of bad leadership, thankfully not something I've ever seen here at B3D). Nor, how said person might not be able to truly understand how hard being a good moderator can be.
My hats off to the moderation team and Rhys. I wish you all the best and wish you all the best of luck because I've grown to love this forum and was sad when it was closed and even sadder thinking about it being forever gone. Here's knocking on wood hoping that the more confrontational members of the forum learn to tone down not only their contrariness but also learn to use less confrontational language which contrary to what they believe is just going to push people away from your stance ... IE - using confrontational language will never get anyone to agree with the point you are trying to make unless they already agree with it.
Regards,
SB
I'm sure you have banging points that I should know about, but.... however ..... here's a beautiful song that I love to bits
I'm not sure that will make much difference with certain users. We have obvious representatives from big engine makers that have to constantly argue the idea that there are different tradeoffs and concepts on how to approach rendering modern games, but when the only possible option to a user is Raytracing because their beloved company has put all their resources and marketing into that tech, there simply is no other recourse for them. These users have parroted those ideals for years, because they have to financially, or are stuck in the world of us vs them, red vs blue, ying vs yang.
good times those. This was common on PC, people respected everyone -console gamers or not-, it was a time of discover and the PC and its unique games was fascinating. The best community. Then in early 2005 I went to a Game store to buy the most powerful console, the girl in the store told me: "Xbox".
Until then, I didn't know what a Xboxer, a Sonyer, and a Nintendo fan were. But I got into other forums and all hell got loose, it was comparisons/rivalry all day. I became a console fanboy but felt always bad xD , dunno why. It wasn't until PC and console games became similar that PC gamers vs console gamers became normal. It's tiring too.
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while Discord isn't B3D in any way, I think that over time it can be improved to make it a bit more organised, as it's now it's just a monolithic place and everything is in a single place.
Anyways, thanks @Rys , @BRiT , @Shifty Geezer whatever, for bringing B3D back, the place I love the most (honest).
I'm basically just happy we're back. As always, much appreciation for Rys and Shifty and Brit.
So I guess I might be part of the problem as I do send reports from time to time, and don't always try to keep to the most constructive tone in any given post.
Like on most forums I participate on, I lurk/absorb much more than I actually post, but when I do post it's most often either when I feel I genuinely have something relevant to add (great), but also sometimes when I'm fed up by some poster's negativity - or sometimes just the sheer volume of their output - and I want to let them know. I think I should just try to skip that step and proceed straight to 'ignore' more. Yeah, 'ignore' is weak sauce and we should all be more accepting of different opinions and all that, but really, it works wonders.
Anyway, I don't know the magic formula that makes a community mostly positive and appreciative (like, say, the Digital Foundry crowd) while others turn into a howling pit of bitterness (like MLID) but I am sure thankful for the thought/effort that goes into keeping this one on the better side. Onwards and upwards..
So I guess I might be part of the problem as I do send reports from time to time, and don't always try to keep to the most constructive tone in any given post.
Like on most forums I participate on, I lurk/absorb much more than I actually post, but when I do post it's most often either when I feel I genuinely have something relevant to add (great), but also sometimes when I'm fed up by some poster's negativity - or sometimes just the sheer volume of their output - and I want to let them know. I think I should just try to skip that step and proceed straight to 'ignore' more. Yeah, 'ignore' is weak sauce and we should all be more accepting of different opinions and all that, but really, it works wonders.
Anyway, I don't know the magic formula that makes a community mostly positive and appreciative (like, say, the Digital Foundry crowd) while others turn into a howling pit of bitterness (like MLID) but I am sure thankful for the thought/effort that goes into keeping this one on the better side. Onwards and upwards..
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The Discord is super barebones and wasn’t intended to grow. Fostering a good server is a set of time commitments and problems all of its own, so we’ll see how it goes and what kind of discussion shows up there. Happy to adapt, but it can’t replace the forums. Discoverability is bad, search engines can’t index it, etc.
We’ll adapt it to what people use and need it for, but my original intent for it was to be a sideband channel for more throwaway realtime chat, and a way for anyone to get hold of me in a hurry if the infrastructure is in trouble.
I think we should simply have a higher tier, or secret cadre, of members with voting rights. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Presently you might have a tricky situation, a mod discussion, some disagreement how to proceed, the issue escalates, etc. The person that wants to act doesn't because other don't agree with the course of action. The committee stalls at inaction, as is often the case.
The moment you have a couple dozen voting members who can downvote content in secret, you can just reject content that's downvoted enough. You needn't know who voted so there's no recriminations or ganging up. Heck, they don't even need to be made public. No member needs know who has voting rights. You just post. Those that aren't posting right would get content removed and warnings that the Order doesn't think they're up to snuff. Downvoted posts can still be present and a change in voting thresholds could adjust to hit to sweet spot and return silenced posts that weren't all that bad.
It just needs noteworthy, trustable active members to be given the downvote option. That'd be everyone in the industry so they can downvote noise generators polluting technical discussions, and those who clearly want genuine good-faith discussions.
You wouldn't even need to ask their permission! Just give some people the power. If they don't want it, they don't have to use it.
You could come up with a fancy 3D inspired analogy about stochastic sampling and ground truth etc. for this, I'm sure.
Edit: Florin mentions above "Ignore Poster". Just needs another "Reject Post" and "Reject Poster" option for senior members, a simple button they can press they get on with talk or work. Instead of writing, "I'm fed up with this," you can vote (if you are a senior member) 1) with actual power to your opinion and 2) without contributing to the noise about the post/posters instead of the topic.
There are clearly a lot of invested 'lurkers' who'd probably make ideal senior executive members/secret-police/fairy godvoters who could be left to drop votes here and there and do a lot of work in a very distributed manner.
To start with, should this happen, if the system were even doable, you could just accumulate votes and then have a mod/admin look at what should go, what shouldn't and fine-tune before rolling out. Heck, mods could just be notified of content with too many downvotes to start with, to handle the final decision making.
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Immediately, we're back to square one. You are bringing this fight here, to the bloody peace talk?! If you care more about that war than the very existence of B3D, please leave of your own volition.
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Industry being only game developers? Or are you also talking about individuals in tech development (AI, hardware, software, research)?
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