PS4 Pro Speculation (PS4K NEO Kaio-Ken-Kutaragi-Kaz Neo-san)

[liolio]

Maybe I misunderstand you but you are saying that supporting Neo would require as much dev effort again as the PS4 version? Eh?

I would think not, though it may more work than what some people think. To achieve perfect BC it is possible that the system is a little hackish, and so neo mode could have its perks moving away from then pretty clean and lean PS4 design.
I dislike that move from Sony but I'm really curious about how they plan to pull it out (software, hardware, business plan).

 

[McHuj]

The leak describes different profiles or modes which implies different config.ini type settings rather than differing code paths.

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Where is this leak? Is it something new?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Maybe I misunderstand you but you are saying that supporting Neo would require as much dev effort again as the PS4 version? Eh?

Not precisely, but a considerable amount. It means Neo assets, Neo development, Neo testing. It needs to be targeted as a new platform. If it is 'fire and forget', run like on PC with the settings tweaked in a few variables (ini file), devs will have no qualms targeting Neo. But if they need to write custom content for it, who's going to want to bother? Especially if it still runs PS4 titles.

How can that even work?! If it runs PS4 executables, it must surely be able to run the same only with settings elevated. If it doesn't, and games need to be rewritten...well, I can only conclude the requirement for a Neo path as decribed by 3dilletante is incorrect. That doesn't tally with a console you can put a PS4 disc in and play. If you can't do that, it's not a PS4 but a new platform, and suddenly we're looking at a very different proposition and the dumbest of moves by Sony.

 

[Cjail]

@Shifty Geezer

Are you saying that developers will ignore/semi-ignore PSNeo because it will mean more work?

 

[London Geezer]

"Neo assets" is very debatable at this point. Sure some devs might have higher quality assets to go with Neo, but as far as we know Sony is requiring them to just make the games run better and prettier on it - through better IQ, not assets.

 

[BRiT]

I think some devs will semi-ignore PS4Neo because of Sony mandates on what they can and can't use the excess performance for. As I said quite some time ago, it all depends on exactly what the Sony mandates are. Until then, everyone is just chasing their tails.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

@Shifty Geezer

Are you saying that developers will ignore/semi-ignore PSNeo because it will mean more work?

Yes, if what 3dilettente says. Consider the position as a developer. You're creating Game X on XB1, PS4 and PC. You've a combined audience of 100+ million users (queue huge discussion on how many console-power PCs are out there!). PS4N is going to sell...2 million at launch? So 2% of your potential market. Even just looking at console market you're looking at a tiny fraction of the install base. Why put in 10% extra work for 2% extra profits? Neo only made sense (to me) as a 'free' upgrade path, like getting a new GPU and running your old games faster. If that's not the case and it needs specific code, it's basically a true, new, half(arsed) generation. The software isn't compatible, you aren't playing your old games improved, you are only getting new games that target your new console, which isn't massively different from the old console. Which doesn't have the financial returns of a new gen because the cast majority of gamers are going to be happy to stick with PS4 Vanilla. So a generation without software targeting it, so no reason to buy it, so no install base to target software for.

It'd be the same as Sega releasing a new 4TF console into the current market, using the same tools as XB1, say - Is it easy to port to from existing development? Yes. Is it worth it? No.

As I say though, I'm skeptical. I can well imagine Sony doing something so stupid, but if true, it means PS4N can't run your existing PS4 library and that's incredibly unlikely. So you buy a lovely new conosle and are back to square one with your software. What do you do with your PS4? Sell it and not have any games to play, or keep it and have two consoles? It has to be that PS4N can run PS4 games, and that means development has to be the same as for PS4 with some specific targets to access Neoness beyond the PS4 side of things. It has to. Pleasepleasepleaseplease...

 

[Cjail]

The factors to consider are always the same.
Costs & Gains.
If the latter outweighs the former they will develop for PSNeo.

You picture a scenario in which costs always outweighs gains but it might not be the case.
Still many devs will have to spend more money/resources this gen anyway with Nintendo NX and PSNeo looks a better alternative compared to it because it will still have a better legacy with PS4.

 

[Rikimaru]

Most likely it's just another target platform. Devs would just need to compile neo specific executable.
And devs can not ignore Neo mode. It'll become mandatory for games from October onwards.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

You picture a scenario in which costs always outweighs gains but it might not be the case.

How so? There's more work. There's a smaller audience who'd otherwise buy a PS4 and be quite content with the PS4 version. How can the gains outweigh the costs?

 

[iroboto]

I thought leaked documentation already suggested it ran ps4 games? Developers were not tasked with providing Neo code for released titles (but they can patch it in later to their desire). And all future titles had to be Neo and Ps4


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[BRiT]

Had to run on ps4 and ps4neo hardware. I didnt see direct mention of games must be running on ps4neo with improvements.

 

[milk]

I'd imagine with ps4 development being very low level, and devs not havimg expected a Kaio Ken to come along, ps4 engines probably have a lot of hard coded stuff for the very speciffic ps4 hardware configuration. Why would they have bothered to abstract that away if the hardware is always the same. So the first wave of games released with neo support will need to do a lot of refactoring. At that, the quickiest way to just get shippable results is to fork the rendering code path and change some of the hard coded values around. Games to be launched later down the line, have the time to use a more elegant solution.

 

[bgroovy]

I thought leaked documentation already suggested it ran ps4 games? Developers were not tasked with providing Neo code for released titles (but they can patch it in later to their desire). And all future titles had to be Neo and Ps4


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It does. All existing games will run on Neo without modifications.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Which is as it should be through hardware compatibility. I suppose the next question is how Neo upgrades are to be included and how much effort that is, to determine if devs will bother.

 

[iroboto]

Which is as it should be through hardware compatibility. I suppose the next question is how Neo upgrades are to be included and how much effort that is, to determine if devs will bother.

I think I just understood what you guys are getting at. You're asking whether Neo is forward compatible with the next generation.

So while Neo and PS4 work in tandem, no guarantee that will be the case for Sonys next generation? Am I understanding this right now ?

 

[manux]

Do we even know if there is significant difference between neo and ps4 hardware? Maybe the whole 4k thing is just for videos and up scaled games?

What would make sense to me is that neo would be exactly same chip as is in ps4. Shrink it to 16nm and up the clocks. Whatever chips don't work with the higher clocks could go to regular ps4. Huge win on costs. This would also allow all existing content to work. Issues running titles on neo would be minor things related to higher clocks. Malfunctioning games could be configured on title to title basis by just lowering neo clocks to ps4 level.

 

[BRiT]

Do we even know if there is significant difference between neo and ps4 hardware? Maybe the whole 4k thing is just for videos and up scaled games?

What would make sense to me is that neo would be exactly same chip as is in ps4. Shrink it to 16nm and up the clocks. Whatever chips don't work with the higher clocks could go to regular ps4. Huge win on costs. This would also allow all existing content to work. Issues running titles on neo would be minor things related to higher clocks. Malfunctioning games could be configured on title to title basis by just lowering neo clocks to ps4 level.

All of that does nothing to make VR games playable with same image quality as nonVR games. Sony is pushing big into VR and as such needs major boost in hardware performance, more than just slight increase on CPU and GPU fronts.


Also, the alleged specs of 36 CU and improved cpu are believed to be true since they were dev leaks from official Sony materials.

So yes, we do know there is major diff in specs.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think I just understood what you guys are getting at. You're asking whether Neo is forward compatible with the next generation.

I'm asking if Neo is even compatible with PS4 based on what 3dilittente said here:

The rumored description I've seen includes a split in software, at least for the GPU side with standard PS4 code and Neo code, and mandates to require equivalent work in bug-fixing for both code versions. If it were fully forward-compatible, a shared bug between the Neo and PS4 versions would be fixed automatically since they would be running the same buggy instructions, not separate paths.

Neo should run PS4 code as is. If it doesn't we're looking at a very different product. Which may be forwards compatible - perhaps the incompatiblities with PS4 are an API abstraction to facilitate FC in future - but which throws a massive spanner in the running PS4 as a business.

 

[mrcorbo]

I'm asking if Neo is even compatible with PS4 based on what 3dilittente said here:

Neo should run PS4 code as is. If it doesn't we're looking at a very different product. Which may be forwards compatible - perhaps the incompatiblities with PS4 are an API abstraction to facilitate FC in future - but which throws a massive spanner in the running PS4 as a business.

I expect that pre-Neo-mandate games will run via a PS4 emulation mode and that post-Neo-mandate games will at a minimum have to be coded to be aware when they are running on a Neo and account for the spec differences themselves (no emulation). Thus the need for two code paths and need to QA and maintain each of them separately. Why no emulation for new titles? To guarantee to those buying the premium system that they will see *some* benefit in every game released going forward.