Are PCs holding back the console experience? (Witcher3 spawn)

[Deleted member 11852]

I see no dates or numbers in the dictionary definition:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/modern

Modern

Spoiler

modern |ˈmɒd(ə)n|
adjective relating to the present or recent times as opposed to the remote past -- characterized by or using the most up-to-date techniques -- contemporary.

So to be clear, because it seems putting two disassociated words together is creating a expression of language beyond some folk's comprehension; 'modern' as in video games that are most definitely not associated with the early days of video games, as may be evidences by the lack of an market of people gaming on oscilloscopes.

And neither are the black&white TVs where the first consoles connected to.

The first consoles were also connected to colour TVs. How is the technology of the television relevant?

What you claim as clearly defined (modern videogames) isn't defined at all. Videogames are very recent as a form of art, so any videogame could be considered modern.

Modern is defined, I apologise if combining it the commercial concept of a product marketing is simply too much. Modern, as term, should be applied relatively to the video games market. I hope that is cleater.

Other person could considered anything not made in 3D as not modern. Another one would say anything below DX9-level of shader effects as ancient.

I guess, using the definition of modern, you could look at those technologies emergence in video games and decide whether they are modern or not.

When I went to New York's Museum of Modern Arts (MOMA), they had the 21-year-old Sim City 2000 as an example of a videogame. Is that modern enough?

Given video games became a mass market in the 1970s and relative to 2015 where we are now, Sim City, a game released in 2000, could certainly be considered modern.

Unless he means consoles is where the current ('modern' as in 'right now') games are born?

Again, take the definition of the word modern then apply it relative to the video games industry. Because the term modern is entirely relative to that which it is applied.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Be more specific (and less arsey, please). Do you mean the past year, or three, or since PS2 (last quarter)? Does PS2 count as modern? It's pretty old in relative terms, yet the games of now mostly existed back then if not before. And what games exactly are being born in that modern era on consoles that aren't being (or weren't already) born on PC?

 

[homerdog]

Modern

Spoiler

modern |ˈmɒd(ə)n|
adjective relating to the present or recent times as opposed to the remote past -- characterized by or using the most up-to-date techniques -- contemporary.

Spoiler

vague
vāɡ/
adjective

1. of uncertain, indefinite, or unclear character or meaning.

 

[Arwin]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maze_War says hello from 1975. It's interesting to see the list of things that likely pioneered with versions of that game!

As for the rest, biggest limitation of consoles has historically been lack of Indy Development. Even today, something like Steam Early Access is great and even when you've been able to do something, it generally involved PC.

Consoles on the other hand made videogames a true easy access consumer device, hugely helping popularise the medium.

But really, the technical part is more interesting. Which was first in games - SPE or GPGPU?

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Modern video games. You play a lot of video games on oscilloscopes?

So, I guess you don't consider RPGs as modern video games? Those started on computers.

Platformers? Arcade machines, not consoles.

Flight simulators? Depending on your definition, either Arcade machines or PCs.

I dare say most modern video game genres came about either on arcade machines or PCs.

Consoles sought to provide an arcade video gaming system in the home.

PC video games started most genre's not covered by arcade gaming machines and eventually made their way onto consoles.

And of course, there's the whole part with people experimenting with creating games on mainframes which later saw introduction into the home via the Atari 2600. While not personal computers, those would still be computers.

If anything, Arcade's would be closest to the birthplace of modern video gaming. The Atari 2600 would have to share credit with computers for bringing video games into the home.

However, current video games are far more similar to PC games from the early 90's than they are to their NES, SNES, genesis, etc. counterparts. So modern MODERN home video gaming has more to do with the PC than consoles.

Regards,
SB

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Be more specific (and less arsey, please). Do you mean the past year, or three, or since PS2 (last quarter)? Does PS2 count as modern? It's pretty old in relative terms, yet the games of now mostly existed back then if not before. And what games exactly are being born in that modern era on consoles that aren't being (or weren't already) born on PC?

Apologies, that was indeed a bit arsey. For a game to be considered modern the genre needs to close to mainstream currently or very recently. So RPGs, third and first person shooters and sports games are all modern genres because lots of people still pay them. To use an analogy, automobiles, despite being around for over a hundred years, are a modern form of transportation. Horses are not because while some still use then, their relevance now and recently has diminished. Horses are not a mainstream form of transportation.

So, I guess you don't consider RPGs as modern video games? Those started on computers.

I guess you didn't read my post because I cite RPGs as an example of modern video games. But RPGs existed long before personal computers, Dungeons & Dragons was first published in 1974 and while the most well known it's not the oldest. D&D was influenced by Chainmail (1971) which was influenced by Siege of Bodenburg (1967).

Flight simulators? Depending on your definition, either Arcade machines or PCs. I dare say most modern video game genres came about either on arcade machines or PCs.

It's not my definition of modern, but I'm talking about video games/genres and you and Shifty are focussing on platforms which I do not see as relevent. Is the genre relevant now? Yes, then by the definition of the dictionary, it is indeed modern. Has it evolved some of the years, sure things do, but is it recognisably the same genre?

Are those first person shooters we played on PCs on PlayStation in the 1990s modern video games? Yes, those genres are alive and well, as are third person platform games like Tomb Raider and Mario.

 

[eastmen]

Seriously guys ? We know the birth of modern Video games was Oregon Trail and that was a pc port so you all die of dysentery !

 

[pjbliverpool]

Are those first person shooters we played on PCs on PlayStation in the 1990s modern video games? Yes, those genres are alive and well, as are third person platform games like Tomb Raider and Mario.

Maybe it's worth you specifying which console only games characterized this move to modern gaming.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Maybe it's worth you specifying which console only games characterized this move to modern gaming.

You really need me to list which game genres are selling well these days?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

You really need me to list which game genres are selling well these days?

I'd have thought those games originated on PC, or at least existed on PC before consoles.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I guess you didn't read my post because I cite RPGs as an example of modern video games. But RPGs existed long before personal computers, Dungeons & Dragons was first published in 1974 and while the most well known it's not the oldest. D&D was influenced by Chainmail (1971) which was influenced by Siege of Bodenburg (1967).

In which case very few modern video gaming genres owes its existence to consoles.

The vast majority of it would owe their existence to Video Arcade machines. Sports is about the only modern video game genre I can think of that would owe its existence to consoles. Possible. Except that Sports games existed on PC's either before they existed on consoles or simultaneously with consoles. Old tandy computers (like the TRS-80 which is a contemporary of the Atari 2600) were already running sports games.

Racing games existed before the home consoles (using your definition they existed back starting somewhere in the 1920's or 1930's, and possibly earlier that that, I believe with carnival machine racing games). SHMUPS before home consoles, although that's not really a AAA modern video gaming genre anymore. FPS existed on PC first. Flights sims on arcade or PC (the original Flight Simulator dated back to 1977 before Microsoft contracted them for a PC version in the 80's) first. Platformers obviously owe their existence to arcades. 3rd person action adventure (like Tomb Raider) may or may now owe its existence to consoles. 3rd person shooter/simulation (like Mechwarrior) is PC territory, although thinking about there are Arcade examples that are pretty old (like Battlezone from 1980). Adventure games is PC territory (of which Heavy Rain is a descendant).

It's actually quite hard to think of a modern gaming genre that owes its existence to consoles.

Regards,
SB

 

[Deleted member 11852]

The vast majority of it would owe their existence to Video Arcade machines. Sports is about the only modern video game genre I can think of that would owe its existence to consoles. Possible. Except that Sports games existed on PC's either before they existed on consoles or simultaneously with consoles.

The first sports video games I personally am aware of are Indy 500 and Video Olympics in the 2600 in 1977. These were swiftly followed by Basketball, Bowling, Mini Golf, Baseball and many more. There was Adventure in 1979 on 2600 which I believe was the first graphical user explorable open world game. It included combat, an inventory system and puzzles. How about space sim/combat games? You could argue Starship (1979) on 2600 was the forerunner but compared to Star Raiders (1982) on the 2600, which required an addition 12 keypad to control the ship, which had first person combat, required a tactical approach to conquer the galactic map while defending your star bases and had resource management. Star Raiders is much closer to the modern space sim genre and was 2 years before Elite.

Old tandy computers (like the TRS-80 which is a contemporary of the Atari 2600) were already running sports games.

You would need to name and date them.

Racing games existed before the home consoles (using your definition they existed back starting somewhere in the 1920's or 1930's, and possibly earlier that that, I believe with carnival machine racing games).

We're talking about video games. Most game concepts existed long before the transistor, and many before electricity.

FPS existed on PC first.

Nope. The first game universally recognised as first person shooter was Maze Runner (1974) and while it ran on a computer, it was most certainly were not any form of personal computer. Maze Runner first ran on a NASA Imlac PDS-1.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

This discussion could get long winded pretty quick.

Looking at Maze War, it seems to be a tile based maze explorer like Dungeon Master. That's a different game to the free-roam FPS which I would attribute to Wolfenstein 3D. IMO FPS as the modern game has to involve an element of aiming at your target by moving the first-person camera. It's not just a game with a first person perspective.

I think a lot of 'what came first' is going to come down to people's definitions of genre, and we're facing a discussion very much like the Chicken and Egg discussion.

 

[orangpelupa]

Origins of video game genre

 

[green.pixel]

I don't think there exists a genre which isn't represented today on various systems. Restricting it to just "mainstream" or "sells well" or AAA categories doesn't make much sense.

Seriously guys ? We know the birth of modern Video games was Oregon Trail and that was a pc port so you all die of dysentery !

What about Spacewar on DEC PDP-1 from 1962?

Not sure whether oscilloscope games count as computer or video games since they were made with discrete analog hardware rather than as a software program for a digital computer.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

An ASIC playing a game is still a computer game - there's no definition that a computer game has to be software loaded onto programmable hardware. It just needs to run on a computer (calculator with RAM blah blah). A video game, by definition, would have to run on a VDU of some sort. So I'd say the first analogue playthings were very much the first video games.

 

[Arwin]

Ok, going back to this topic, I noticed we had this exact topic 6 years ago. We even discussed it in Beyond3Ds podcast attempt! (which reminds me that, while I could probably do it better now with 6 years of listening to an average of 5 ours of podcast a week, really needs at least three people that have something to say and like to hear their own voice ). https://forum.beyond3d.com/index.php?threads/Beyond3D-Podcast-Episode-1---public-beta.46798/

 

[green.pixel]

The most important difference is that Spacewar had actual game design, and a brand-new one to boot, unlike the electronic/computer/video/whatever-called games that preceded it. I think that should be considered as a cut-off point for "modern" VG. That type of design (2D shooting + versus play) was most recently updated in 2005/2009 with Senko no Ronde.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

The first sports video games I personally am aware of are Indy 500 and Video Olympics in the 2600 in 1977. These were swiftly followed by Basketball, Bowling, Mini Golf, Baseball and many more. There was Adventure in 1979 on 2600 which I believe was the first graphical user explorable open world game. It included combat, an inventory system and puzzles. How about space sim/combat games? You could argue Starship (1979) on 2600 was the forerunner but compared to Star Raiders (1982) on the 2600, which required an addition 12 keypad to control the ship, which had first person combat, required a tactical approach to conquer the galactic map while defending your star bases and had resource management. Star Raiders is much closer to the modern space sim genre and was 2 years before Elite.

BTW - Starship was based on their own arcade game, Starship 1. So that wouldn't have had its roots on console either.

You would need to name and date them.

I would if I still had my TRS-80 which I owned at the same times as my Atari 2600. There was an Olympic decathlon game I played on it quite extensively. There was also a first person space combat game. I now it pre-dated Star Raiders, but can't remember if it pre-dated Starship (which I never played).

We're talking about video games. Most game concepts existed long before the transistor, and many before electricity.

And yet you countered my factual accounting of RPGs first appearing on PCs (possibly mainframes) by pointing out that Pen and Paper RPGs existed prior. Double standards here?

Nope. The first game universally recognised as first person shooter was Maze Runner (1974) and while it ran on a computer, it was most certainly were not any form of personal computer. Maze Runner first ran on a NASA Imlac PDS-1.

Either way, it's not a console. Which is my point. There aren't a lot of genre's that got their start on console. Sports are about the only one that might be possible. Maybe 3D action platformers, but I'm fairly sure some existed on PC or arcade machines prior to their introduction on consoles. But my memory isn't good enough to remember every obscure arcade game that was introduced in the 80's and early 90's, nor all the shareware games from the PC.

Regards,
SB

 

[Deleted member 11852]

BTW - Starship was based on their own arcade game, Starship 1. So that wouldn't have had its roots on console either.

So you're saying it appeared in the arcade, then on consoles then eventually PC.

I would if I still had my TRS-80 which I owned at the same times as my Atari 2600. There was an Olympic decathlon game I played on it quite extensively. There was also a first person space combat game. I now it pre-dated Star Raiders, but can't remember if it pre-dated Starship (which I never played).

This should be be easy enough to cite with some research. Most early video games, particularly those that were first in their genres, are well documented.

And yet you countered my factual accounting of RPGs first appearing on PCs (possibly mainframes) by pointing out that Pen and Paper RPGs existed prior. Double standards here?

In relation to RPGs you said "Those started on computers." which I took to be a definitive statement that they were an original genre started on PCs. Surprisingly there were RPGs on the 2600, not the first but Dragonstomper (1982) was one.

Either way, it's not a console. Which is my point.

So anything that first ran on anything other than is clearly defined as a console of personal computer counts as neither? Well that will certainly limit the field.

Looking at Maze War, it seems to be a tile based maze explorer like Dungeon Master. That's a different game to the free-roam FPS which I would attribute to Wolfenstein 3D. IMO FPS as the modern game has to involve an element of aiming at your target by moving the first-person camera. It's not just a game with a first person perspective.

You may want to debate that with John Carmack, he disagrees and has spoken about the history of first person shooters many times. I've never seen a definition of an FPS as having to be "free-roam" or indeed requiring 360 degree movement in one or two planes.

I think a lot of 'what came first' is going to come down to people's definitions of genre, and we're facing a discussion very much like the Chicken and Egg discussion.