MS announced a few, but I'm aware of other games and what they are doing.
Is 60fps the new thing for next-gen?
- Thread starter Arwin
- Start date
MS announced a few, but I'm aware of other games and what they are doing.
ArcticCircle
Newcomer
Probably 2 main reasons.
The multiplayer success of CoD. Even if person don't even know what 60 fps mean, they can feel it once they play the game. They might even say that they don't "notice" any visual difference between 30 and 60 fps and yet somehow CoD just feels bit better then the rest of similar multiplayer games.
Second reason is probably the fact that most games are still developed for the last gen consoles. Thus easiest way to mark a buck is quick and dirty port... PC style. Add higher resolution textures, 1080p and 60 fps.
For PC gamers like me it would be better if developers would start to target 720p and 30 fps as soon as possible. Then we can enjoy quick and dirty ports with 120 fps and 4k when the generation is nearly over
The multiplayer success of CoD. Even if person don't even know what 60 fps mean, they can feel it once they play the game. They might even say that they don't "notice" any visual difference between 30 and 60 fps and yet somehow CoD just feels bit better then the rest of similar multiplayer games.
Second reason is probably the fact that most games are still developed for the last gen consoles. Thus easiest way to mark a buck is quick and dirty port... PC style. Add higher resolution textures, 1080p and 60 fps.
For PC gamers like me it would be better if developers would start to target 720p and 30 fps as soon as possible. Then we can enjoy quick and dirty ports with 120 fps and 4k when the generation is nearly over
I've told you all several times
Almost all the leading engines were already feature complete on PS3/X360, but hardware limitations have held the image quality back. Now with the new systems, these limitations are removed and suddenly everything looks a lot better - without any new features.
Also, the engines were already close to completion, so there isn't much to add. The only difference between realtime and offline is that games have to use approximations, donwscaled versions and fake replacements for most of the stuff, with practically no AA.
Almost all the leading engines were already feature complete on PS3/X360, but hardware limitations have held the image quality back. Now with the new systems, these limitations are removed and suddenly everything looks a lot better - without any new features.
Also, the engines were already close to completion, so there isn't much to add. The only difference between realtime and offline is that games have to use approximations, donwscaled versions and fake replacements for most of the stuff, with practically no AA.
For now by far the biggest improvements seem to come from (in about this order):
- better lighting
- far better textures
- physics effects (which also show up graphically)
- animations
Infamous 2 was never a bad looker, but Second Son looks quite amazingly much better, imho.
- better lighting
- far better textures
- physics effects (which also show up graphically)
- animations
Infamous 2 was never a bad looker, but Second Son looks quite amazingly much better, imho.
arijoytunir
Regular
its interesting that many devs mentioned 60fps but not 1080p . may be those games are running at 720p 60fps.
I'd take that over 1080p 30fps. As long as there's good AA.
hesido
Regular
Same here. Benefits of resolution is view distance / display size dependent and the IQ gains are limited at a distance, I can't say the same for 60fps.
Yes, many last generation console games were CPU bound. Those simple in-order PPC cores were quite bad for general purpose game logic code (AI, script execution, flash based UI, etc). I read some driving game post mortem (Forza maybe?), and they used 1/3 of CPU cores just for audio processing. It was hard to find enough free CPU cycles to push 60 frames per second on last generation consoles (every rendered frame needs scene setup, animation update, visibility determination, and lots of draw calls / GPU state setup among other things). Basically 60 fps requires almost double CPU cycles compared to 30 fps. It's not only a GPU cost. On PC you barely notice the CPU cost, because the modern PC CPUs are overpowered compared to the 7 year old console CPUs.
We have been always pushing 60 fps gaming. It's good to see so many developers targeting 60 fps now.
I do recall Halo Reach utilizing 50-80% of one thread... Realtime Worlds said they budgeted 10% CPU time for Crackdown 2 (I assume that's 10% of 33ms* 5 or 6 threads, so roughly the same). Can't remember where the Forza number came from.
I don't know what I will first notice, all I know is that we are going to experience and see...2x the polygons, 2x the pixels, 2x the framerate, 2.5x the resolution... and when you take into account these consoles are 10x more powerful is certainly doable. Easy as pie.
Of course there will be like 1000x the particles -sparks and smoke-, and better shadows.
This is a good example of how many sparks -and even much more than that- the new consoles can process hands down in real time.
A big leap if you ask me: http://i.minus.com/i1tsiPxANDaJN.gif
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hesido
Regular
I think the majority here also know about it, but:
Why hasn't this taken off?:
http://and.intercon.ru/releases/talks/rtfrucvg/
It's basically, frame up-scaling, a post-process where intermediary frames are generated, to my surprise, without added latency.
This is the work of Dmitry "AND" Andreev, when he was at LucasArts, the code never made it into a final game, now LucasArts is gone he seems to be working at Microsoft. However, I strongly urge you to download the example videos. The results seem to be outstanding.
The technique trades in motion-blur for upscaling, so if a game uses motion blur, this basically comes free, and it manages to work under 2ms on old gen consoles!
It has the potential to interpolate reflections, for example. People have noticed 30fps reflections on Forza5 60fps videos. Using this technique, they still could render the game at 60fps with low input latency, and interpolate the 30fps reflection map to work at 60fps. The technique even does 15fps -> 60fps conversions and it works good for camera pans and rotation and camera motion, so it could really aid in increasing game's performance as those extra effects do not need to match the game's native frame rate.
One future possible use he mentioned was to render environment at 30 or 15fps, decoupled from on screen characters for example.
So this technique, while it doesn't provide the low input latency of 60fps, it doesn't add further latency (I'm still trying to get my head around it), could provide 60fps smooth motion with 30fps visuals. It could provide visual consistency for lower refresh rate effects on 60fps native games (like the reflections in Forza).. I'm quite sad this didn't take off, and it'd be nice to hear your thoughts.
Why hasn't this taken off?:
http://and.intercon.ru/releases/talks/rtfrucvg/
It's basically, frame up-scaling, a post-process where intermediary frames are generated, to my surprise, without added latency.
This is the work of Dmitry "AND" Andreev, when he was at LucasArts, the code never made it into a final game, now LucasArts is gone he seems to be working at Microsoft. However, I strongly urge you to download the example videos. The results seem to be outstanding.
The technique trades in motion-blur for upscaling, so if a game uses motion blur, this basically comes free, and it manages to work under 2ms on old gen consoles!
It has the potential to interpolate reflections, for example. People have noticed 30fps reflections on Forza5 60fps videos. Using this technique, they still could render the game at 60fps with low input latency, and interpolate the 30fps reflection map to work at 60fps. The technique even does 15fps -> 60fps conversions and it works good for camera pans and rotation and camera motion, so it could really aid in increasing game's performance as those extra effects do not need to match the game's native frame rate.
One future possible use he mentioned was to render environment at 30 or 15fps, decoupled from on screen characters for example.
So this technique, while it doesn't provide the low input latency of 60fps, it doesn't add further latency (I'm still trying to get my head around it), could provide 60fps smooth motion with 30fps visuals. It could provide visual consistency for lower refresh rate effects on 60fps native games (like the reflections in Forza).. I'm quite sad this didn't take off, and it'd be nice to hear your thoughts.
hesido
Regular
In the presentation it is clearly mentioned that this method doesn't need to wait for the next frame and creates no additional latency, and the fact that TV's do not have access to all the data that the game engine has (motion vectors, camera movement, object positions) results in better results with fewer computations compared to a TV, which has to do a lot of work trying to guess which part of the frame moved. If you download the example AVI, you'll appreciate the quality of the implementation.
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