*spin-off* Importance of Backward Compatibility Discussion

[Nesh]

Ars Technica has coverage of a study that purports to quantify the impact of backwards compatibility in new hardware:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/...kward-compatibility-could-cost-sony-sales.ars

I always thought that one of the reasons why 3DS can pick up much more sales growth and success in Japan (and I expect worldwide) than the PS Vita is the fact that lots of legacy from previous Nintendo portables are carried over automatically.

Lets just take a look at how many owners the DS has. We are talking about millions of which many carried from the Game Boy and Game Boy Advance heritage. Many of these millions DS owners are probably more likely to be 3DS owners than PS Vita owners because they have a library of games that can be played also on the new portable.
The PS Vita on the other hand needs an extra process and extra cost to be able to play your old PSP games and not for all your games. It is of no extra process and extra cost only for the games you purchased digitally from PSN.

 

[TheChefO]

Ars Technica has coverage of a study that purports to quantify the impact of backwards compatibility in new hardware:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/...kward-compatibility-could-cost-sony-sales.ars

What does this study of portable backwards compatibility have to do with consoles!?! This is the console forum!

/sarcasm?

____________

Interesting study. It doesn't take into account the new paradigm of online communities and cross console game playing which ties more people into a game and console environment. This makes BC significantly more important than ever before. Especially with the popularity of the online networks.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Ars Technica has coverage of a study that purports to quantify the impact of backwards compatibility in new hardware:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/...kward-compatibility-could-cost-sony-sales.ars

It's good that someone tried it, but I am extremely dubious that they can create a mathematical model of a system's lifetime sales and quantify how BC affects it. They can present the same reasons that people raise here, but how you attach a figure to those, I don't know. It's not like there are a lot of handhelds that could be compared to test for accuracy comparing numbers crunched through their formula with real-world numbers.

 

[JPT]

How many played their old PS2 games on the PS3? I certainly did not and I suspect it will not be different with the PS3 to PS4 jump. Heck I do not even play most of the PS3 games I have anymore.

Only thing that will bother me, probably more psychologically than anything else, is to see my PS3 titles in PSN/SEN download list when accessing it with the PS4. But if they do not list incompatible software, I most likely will not care at all.

But in general, I think BC will become more important with Digital Download titles and a quicker iteration on hardware ala Apple's iPads etc. If they keep releasing new hardware every year, then its important to do BC.
If as, Sony and MS, a new console comes along every 5-8 years, not a big issue, in my book.

 

[BoardBonobo]

I would be happy if BC was supported via an add on module. That way Sony can concentrate on packing in as much hardware as they want in the console without any need for BC. I've played Time Splitters, Killzone, and a few others again this gen (I kept an original fat for that purpose).

 

[hoho]

I would be happy if BC was supported via an add on module.

Can this module be roughly in the size of ps3 slim? If yes then why not just buy one? They will quite likely make it smaller in next few years.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It could be much smaller. You woudln't need optical drive or PSU as it'd run off the PS4. You could have a thinnish box that sits underneath PS4, perhaps. The major issue would be cooling. It could be sold at cost as the purpose would be to help PS4 adoption, so would add maybe $100 to the price of a PS4 for those who want BC. It's definitely what I'd do.

 

[hoho]

Yes, they could reuse PS4 optical and storage but how much more expensive would that make the base model? Providing decently fast HDD+BD drive access outside the box won't be easy or cheap.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yes, they could reuse PS4 optical and storage but how much more expensive would that make the base model? Providing decently fast HDD+BD drive access outside the box won't be easy or cheap.

Gigabit would be enough, surely. So would USB3. Latency may be aproblem but some IO cache in the BC unit should help.

 

[Jedi2016]

How many played their old PS2 games on the PS3? I certainly did not and I suspect it will not be different with the PS3 to PS4 jump.

I did. Up until my first system died and I had to replace it with one that didn't have BC.

No, it's done so they can sell HD remakes, so you have to buy all of your old games again. Case in point: Silent Hill. Except in that case, the new versions are actually worse than the old ones, which I still have. And since I actually would like to play them again, that means I have to go buy a PS2.

I heard another good example just yesterday of why BC is needed: Because launch lineups suck. You don't start getting your money's worth out of next-gen games for months, maybe years after the system launches (take the 3DS for example.. that one took a while to finally warm up. Wouldn't it have been nice to be able to play your old DS games on it? Oh, that's right... you could).

So when new hardware comes along, do you leave your old system hooked up, so you can continue to play all the games you've already got (leading to heaps of consoles going back decades)? Or do you just suddenly stop playing PS3 altogether, and sell all of your consoles and games on the same day you buy your PS4 and its one decent launch title?

 

[Npl]

ideally I would like some cheap "HD Remakes" or ports. ie. buy a small patch (< 5€) for Uncharted and play the game on PS4 with better resolution, without PS3-disc or preowned PSN purchase the full ported game would be more expensive of course.
that way you can finally get a measure on how much backwards compatibility is worth for the users, the cost of BC is transfered to those that want it and you will get some more sales from PS4 owners who never played the game.

but then I`m one of those who would like hardware BC aswell . still use my PS2 and Id love to have a crisper (perfect) image than the component cable can provide

 

[upnorthsox]

Yes, they could reuse PS4 optical and storage but how much more expensive would that make the base model? Providing decently fast HDD+BD drive access outside the box won't be easy or cheap.

It'd be a PCIe type connector, look at a Dell laptop docking port as an example. They can start with all units having one and if they don't sell many expansion units then they can drop it on a lower priced base unit.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

So when new hardware comes along, do you leave your old system hooked up, so you can continue to play all the games you've already got (leading to heaps of consoles going back decades)? Or do you just suddenly stop playing PS3 altogether, and sell all of your consoles and games on the same day you buy your PS4 and its one decent launch title?

Or, do you just not buy the new system until it can offer the game experience you want? I don't understand why anyone would buy a new console only to play old games. And whatever would be spent on providing BC would be better spent on creating a compelling launch lineup. A BC peripheral would mostly mitigate the costs of BC without impacting minimum SKU price for the larger majority who just don't care. Elevating your launch price by $100 (or losses) for a small proportion of users is definitely the worse choice. The only other option is hardware compatilibity in the new architecture which is likely to either gimp it relative to a clean architecture, or to affect costs.

 

[joker454]

Or, do you just not buy the new system until it can offer the game experience you want? I don't understand why anyone would buy a new console only to play old games.

Many like to use the money made selling the old console to fund the new one. If the new one doesn't play the old games, then many will delay the purchase of the new console altogether.

Having multiple consoles looks like a mess around the tv, some people don't like that, particularly families with kids.

Some people don't have enough inputs on their tv to support keeping legacy devices around.

Others will not be happy that the large digital library of games that they bought is now worthless unless they keep old fail happy console hardware around forever.

Fyi I'm also one that played ps2 games on my launch ps3. I also like that it if a ps2 game came out that I was curious to try later on that I still had that option without leaving dozens of systems hooked up, same as in the ps1/ps2 era. I'm curious though, have you guys asked non core gamers if bc is important to them? Because "does it play the old games" is the #1 thing brought up time and again when I do ask non core gamers.

 

[upnorthsox]

I played quite a few PS2 games on my fat PS3. That was mostly because I came from an xbox so I had never played them before. It was a nice option.

Likewise, if I go with an xbox3 next gen it would be nice to have BC so that I can play some of the 360 games I missed out on this gen.

 

[Barbarian]

Many like to use the money made selling the old console to fund the new one. If the new one doesn't play the old games, then many will delay the purchase of the new console altogether.

Why would a console manufacturer want to sell a console to a person that will play old games on it? They would want to sell it to someone who is going to buy as many launch titles as possible.
So the fact that maybe some launch purchases were delayed is not a big deal, since they will eventually materialize anyway.

Having multiple consoles looks like a mess around the tv, some people don't like that, particularly families with kids.

Sure, I have wife and kids and yet solved the "mess around the TV" years ago by buying a media cabinet, IR extender and Logitech Harmony. It's been working amazingly well. I can easily fit all current gen consoles in there.

Some people don't have enough inputs on their tv to support keeping legacy devices around.

Oh, give me a break. TV's and receivers these days have 4-6 HDMI inputs. It's not as big of a deal as it used to be with component cables.
Plus, nowadays people have multiple TVs around the house. You don't have to have all your consoles hooked to one TV. And I follow your posts, so I know you know that

 

[-tkf-]

Why would a console manufacturer want to sell a console to a person that will play old games on it? They would want to sell it to someone who is going to buy as many launch titles as possible.
So the fact that maybe some launch purchases were delayed is not a big deal, since they will eventually materialize anyway.

Sure, I have wife and kids and yet solved the "mess around the TV" years ago by buying a media cabinet, IR extender and Logitech Harmony. It's been working amazingly well. I can easily fit all current gen consoles in there.

Oh, give me a break. TV's and receivers these days have 4-6 HDMI inputs. It's not as big of a deal as it used to be with component cables.
Plus, nowadays people have multiple TVs around the house. You don't have to have all your consoles hooked to one TV. And I follow your posts, so I know you know that

They want to sell as many launch consoles as possible, it´s the way the attract publishers to their platform. If BC helps (it does) they would weigh that up to cost it requires.

You solved the mess, i did not, hell lets just put a number on this, millions didn't solve the mess, until everything is wireless there is a mess. And since this generation isn't 100% wireless i would take a wild guess and say this problem isn't solved in the next 10-20 years.

And you are perfectly correct, most modern recievers/tv's have more than enough HDMI inputs, it's just those that usually are found in the kids bedroom, or wherever the console is placed are OLD and isn't modern in anyway. Yes anecdotal but not that uncommon. The old stuff usually moves to other rooms.

I have no idea about the impact of BC, i just know that it's a big deal of the Nintendo strategy, so at least the number one console maker chose this direction.

However, i am 100% sure we will see one of the first real tests of digital purchases if Microsoft/Sony drops BC from PSN/XBL purchased games. We will se stories of people that has games worth "thousands" of dollars in their library not being able to play it on the new console. And questions will be raised about the future of these library's.

 

[RobertR1]

I'd want my digital purchases to have BC support, especially my xbla games.

I want it follow the app store model. The apps get updated to the newer model.

 

[joker454]

Why would a console manufacturer want to sell a console to a person that will play old games on it? They would want to sell it to someone who is going to buy as many launch titles as possible.
So the fact that maybe some launch purchases were delayed is not a big deal, since they will eventually materialize anyway.

Because it's not all about just games and core gamers anymore. They want to keep people on their *platform* and spending money there. Having their old digital games still be playable is an excellent hook to keep people from defecting to a competing platform, which in turn means they will keep spending money elsewhere on that same playform on non gaming content.

Sure, I have wife and kids and yet solved the "mess around the TV" years ago by buying a media cabinet, IR extender and Logitech Harmony. It's been working amazingly well. I can easily fit all current gen consoles in there.

What's works for you isn't necesarily indicative of others. Heck I don't know any family friends that even would consider spending money on a Harmony remote, let alone have all these devices lying around. It's the reason, at least with all the families I know, why the built in tv apps are so popular because they don't want a million things hooked up nor do they want to have a mess of cables and remotes. Your mileage may vary as they say, but keep in mind that your experiences don't necessarily represent all.

Oh, give me a break. TV's and receivers these days have 4-6 HDMI inputs. It's not as big of a deal as it used to be with component cables.
Plus, nowadays people have multiple TVs around the house. You don't have to have all your consoles hooked to one TV. And I follow your posts, so I know you know that

Some do...some don't. I was merely giving out various reasons. A friend of mine that works at Zindagi has that exact issue. Even though he's made a small fortune in royalties over there, he still can't connect all the devices to his tv because his tv doesn't have enough inputs. So he keeps some disconnected. And that's with someone that could easily afford a new 80" tv if he wanted to. Now imagine the typical familes out there! Everyones situation will vary.

However, i am 100% sure we will see one of the first real tests of digital purchases if Microsoft/Sony drops BC from PSN/XBL purchased games. We will se stories of people that has games worth "thousands" of dollars in their library not being able to play it on the new console. And questions will be raised about the future of these library's.

Yes I'm curious to see this also. Personally I think the company that doesn't offer bc for their digital content next gen will be at a huge disadvantage. Not having bc for downloaded games (XBLA/PSN) will set a negative precedent for that company and will forever cast doubt on any future digital download purchases because people will then wonder if everything they buy will be rendered obsolete by said company again in the future. In the age of iOS I think some form of bc is expected.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

They want to sell as many launch consoles as possible, it´s the way the attract publishers to their platform.

Yes, but if the impact isn't large, it's not an issue. And if those early adopters aren't buying software because their playing last-gen games, that's no good to the publishers either. What use is 10 million launch day consoles if no-one's buying next-gen games? A platform that doesn't run old games is guaranteed to be selling new games to whoever buys it. Of no BC means no-one buys it, the platform is dead. But otherwise, it's a normal starting position. The platform is always made or broken on the quality of its software library. If there's nothing compelling, people wouldn't ever upgrade. If the launch software isn't any good, just delay 6 months until it is, rather than spend great wads of cash on implementing the limited feature of BC.

I'd want my digital purchases to have BC support, especially my xbla games. I want it follow the app store model. The apps get updated to the newer model.

That's the ideal, but that model didn't really exist before iPad apps; at least not regards consoles. So neither Live! nor PSN should be expected to carry over. Live! might. Next-gen downloads should definitely be part of a continuous platform though.