3 year warranty for all X360s.

Any more juvenile hyperbole that you want to dish out?

Some of you are so ridiculous. Not all problems are the same. You can have the best QA in the world and not be able to predict a problem that only shows up in appreciable quantity after a long time. And what electronics factory has a 4ppm failure rate?

What if, for example, the RoHS compliance was part of the problem? Before XB360, has anyone on the planet mass produced (i.e. millions sold) a compact CE product that has over 100W power consumption in the lead-free solder era?

There's no data on this stuff, and there's only a handful of companies capable of this kind of volume (Microsoft doesn't make the consoles themselves, genius). Firing people isn't going to solve anything.

The issue with the x360 was not the "extremly new design and the chalange and so on",but the dirty cheap and low quality components.Possibly with this components a simple dvd player will fail too:

http://www.xbox-scene.com/xbox1data/sep/EElFlyVlyluEAGwwQU.php

Asian Manufacturers About RRoD: Microsoft is too Cheap
>> From smarthouse.com.au:
Robbie Bach, president of Microsoft's entertainment and devices division, declined in an interview to say what specifically caused the failures or how high the failure rate has been, but Asian manufacturers of the Xbox 360 who have been pressured by Microsoft to lower costs by as much as 15% say that the problem is caused by poor Microsoft design and the Company buying low cost components in an effort to beat Sony.

Recently Microsoft adopted various strategies to be more cost competitive with its Xbox 360 game consoles, with moves including asking for a price reduction from Taiwan-based component makers and working with Lite-On IT for its add-on HD-DVD drive, according to sources in Taiwan.

One Asian manufacturer that SmartHouse spoke to on Friday said "Microsoft have known of this problem for a long time. They are trying to blame component manufacturers but it was a combination of bad design and them (Microsoft) wanting everything cheap. This is what caused the problem along with them wanting to beat Sony to market. A lot of manufacturers were pushed to deliver components without much testing of the components working together inside the console".
 
Anecdotal post-hoc assessments.

Lots of things are made in China without this sort of failure rate. You're just making empty allegations with no proof. Now that you and all these news sites know that there's a high defect rate, they can go ahead and blame whatever they want, and people like you will assume they're correct and have proved it.
 
Of course,impossible to break the faith of somebody.
So,if not the dirty cheap components, what is the possible root cause of the failures?

0-rrod
.1bad components
..2due to one supplier fault-not possible, easy to correct,short term issue
..2due to many supplier fault- possible , hard to correct,mid term issue
..3cost driven sourcing
..2due to the poor production system , hard to correct, long term issue
...3ten more yearand they will have the knowledge , but they will miss the customers
....4not customer centric thinking

.1bad design
..2bad bill of process, not possible easy to modify within a few month
..2bad product design,not possible to manufacture ,possible, hard to change,mid term problem
..2design system issue
...3not customer centric thinking
.1bad design and components


This is a quick failure tree for this issue.
the root cause is simple, :

"guys,if we will have 1 $ OI due the bad quality now, will will get the money and the customer will be on the second priority"
cost->volume->quality
In the history this thinking was the fate of many company.
 
Well to be clear, they're going to be making a profit *because* of the $1 billion charge, rather than in spite of it.
Okay, I misread the article.

I'm still shocked that the impact on Microsoft's stock was so insignificant. $1B is a lot of money! I guess the fact that it's a one-time charge for a $300B company takes the sting out of it a bit.
 
Of course,impossible to break the faith of somebody.
So,if not the dirty cheap components, what is the possible root cause of the failures?
How about something like this:
According to Micromart in the UK it's because of solder crack, thousands of places for a potential solder crack make it impossible to be completely repaired. Basically there's no other way except for replacing the motherboard itself.
Are "dirty cheap" components the cause of this? The fact is that you don't know where the problem is nor who is responsible. You are just assuming it, like you always do. You write a tree and assume it is exhaustive. You do some math and ignore all the assumptions you've made in doing so.
 
you know, if you have a part that cost 100$,and you have on other that cost 70$ and both of them nearly idnetifical, you can ask :"what is the diference between them?"
And if you will discover that in the plant of the high cost component the line have 4 assy station and 10 test staion,with a revork level of 30%,in the low cost 4 assy station and 1 test station with a rework level of 5%.Possibly in the low cost factory they fine tune the acceptance renge of the machins to be able to decrease the revork/scrap level.


Yes,the soldering was the point of cause.

Why?
because of the bed soldering material?Oh, c'mon.If they start to use the most expensive material in the soldering machine, the cost impact will be less than 10$.
So, can it be the root cause?
No.
So, what is the root cause?The bad design?the bad parts?both of them?
 
Like I said before, name me one other compact 150W electronics product produced in the millions that uses lead-free solder. I can't think of any. Can you?

It doesn't have to be cheap solder. It could simply be solder for which there is no extensive reliability data in this environment. The solution could be as simple as switching solder, and it may not even be more expensive but simply a different brand or formulation. However, nobody knows that in 2005 or even 2006.

If you have a reliability problem that typically takes 1-3 years to manifest (as suggested by the warranty extensions), you won't really know how widespread it is until maybe a year has gone by. Then when they get a potential solution, they don't know it solves the problem until they test it for a year or so. The 360 hasn't even been around for two years. Not all failures follow Weibull statistics, so it's not easy to predict these things.

This is exactly the sort of assumptions I'm talking about. You think the problem can't be solder because the solution is cheap. So what? That's completely irrelevant. Your "failure tree" is ridiculous.
 
So, the issue is this kind of problem take at least half year to solve, and usualy you will able to decrease the failure rate,but you can not eliminate it.
After it, of course every root cause analysis will be a jump to the solution kind of thing.

But usualy in this kind of situation the root cause is something like this:
http://money.cnn.com/2006/10/02/magazines/fortune/BP_leak_short.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2006100210

this is the reason why I am so brave to point the most possible root cause:"not customer centric company management"
 
If you have a reliability problem that typically takes 1-3 years to manifest (as suggested by the warranty extensions), you won't really know how widespread it is until maybe a year has gone by.
Absolutely. I think it bizarre that lots of people expect perfection, and can't possibly imagine things going wrong due to unforeseen circumstances. It's always either a conspiracy to be cheap, or total incompetence, whereas the truth could just as easily lie in the 'this is new and unexplored territory' and 'no-one really knows much about this area' and similar areas of possibility. Think how many bugs you get in software. The more complicated systems become, the more chance of errors appearing. XB360 is taking the known quantity of a gaming console and pushing it with other less-well understood aspects. There's likely to be problems as the machines being designed by fallible creators!

I'll give a classic example - the Millennium Bridge in London. Upon it's unveiling, to the architects' shock and horror, it started oscillating side-to-side. To Joe Public, it was a situation to scoff at the architects' incompetence to design even a bridge. Yet the truth is the situation of the bridge was one not anticipated by the architects, or ever heard of in the business. It was caused by a combination of the bridge's unique design and the human response to music. The public created a sympathetic oscillation in the footsteps. No-one could be expected to account for that in the design. Music when opening bridges had never been an issue before, so it would never be flagged as a problem subject. It wasn't anyone's fault. It wasn't anyone's incompetence. It was a result of human beings trying different things and encountering new situations. It was the result of humanity's finite capacities.

That's but one minuscule example in a history of zillions of errors and mistakes. Why expect MS to be perfect, when no-one else pulls it off (exploding lithium batteries, anyone?). For me, the only area of contempt that would be valid isn't in the existence of the problem, but in the fact it's been denied for so long. Yet even that can't necessarily be pegged as a fault of MS's, because we don't know that they were aware of a problem. That's a tough one to call. They must have known how many units were being returned, and seen it was high. Yet if it was that bad, you'd expect them to do something about it!

As it is, a fault exists, and MS's response, now they've got around to one, is probably as good as anyone could expect. It's going to cost them a lot of money, but they're doing it. You can buy an XB360 and be confident that you'll have it for 3 years, minus one or two periods without when they're replacing it. I suppose that might still be an issue, if they maintain the multiple replacement failure situation. If they actually sort that out, not returning broken items to customers, which we can expect as it's cheaper in the long run, there's not really an issue beyond the ordinary. Things do break. I've had a wireless router and two WiFi USB adaptors go on me within the year, and long-life fluorescent light-bulb die after only two-years a few weeks ago. My sis was down just yesterday so I could track down a fault with her computers - a duffered 2.5" HDD and an apparent mobo death in the tower. Things break. Always have done, always will do. The question then is how to deal with the breaks. A 3 year warranty, especially in a country known for being really cheap in that respect and effectively adding a 3rd party warranty to the price of goods (something we don't factor into prices when doing US<>Euro conversions, which we probably should do if we're to add cost of peace of mind to the cost of ownership), is as good a response as anyone could expect from a business.

For me, the whole issue can be laid to rest now. For months, the question was whether there was a real problem or not, and how to interpret the evidence. We questioned what might cause a fault and how it could be fixed. That's finished with. There is a problem. It's getting solved as best it can. What more debate is there to be had from RRoD? Seems to me all that's left is luzzing MS hate around and defending their reputation, which isn't constructive.
 
I'm confused. In fact, I'm doubly confused. First off, why the string of negative comments? Isn't this great news? Isn't MS replacing broken units for free? Could MS have handled their past mistakes in a better way? You just seem bitter for some reason, and I can't see why. I'm honestly curious.

Secondly, let us say that the apologists are settling on the 25% number, is that so surprising that it deserves a comment? Nobody had any facts to go on prior to this news, it's only now that people have enough information to deduce failure rates.

My problem is with people trying to pass this off as good news.

Really its only "good news" to hardcore gamers who already own a 360.

To the rest of the world it is bad news. Frankly having to make a press release admitting you made a $1 Billion dollar mistake is just about the worst possible news a company could make.

The PR damage of this has the potential to be even bigger than the financial damage to MS. A bunch of angry gamers complaining on message boards does not get mainstream attention. A company losing 1 billion dollars does. Now this dirty little secret is making headlines in print and making the rounds on pretty much every TV news outlet. Millions of potential customers who never heard about the RROD before, now know that the 360 a risky buy due to it's unreliability. This is not a good thing.

For a recent example of what poor reliability can have on a company's market share just look at what happened to Dell in the last couple years.

And about the 25% number people have been throwing around. We still do not fully understand the extent of the failure rate. We knew from a very high volume of anecdotal evidence that it is very high. But even when that was all we had, the apologists were sticking with the company line saying it was 3-5%. An now a 25% number shows up on FOX news (of all places) and people have been trying to pass it off as a) "not that bad" and b) a factual figure.

They simply should not have rushed their product out to market. The ship now, patch later mentality might work fine for MS's software but in the HW business it's a recipe for disaster. As consumers, we should not be so accepting of such tactics.
 
That's but one minuscule example in a history of zillions of errors and mistakes. Why expect MS to be perfect, when no-one else pulls it off (exploding lithium batteries, anyone?).

Using the battery example, the failure rate of Sony's the Li-Ion batteries was 1 in 200,000 even by the highest estimates. In reality, the real world failure rate was much lower than that.

Obviously the consequences for a battery failure were more dangerous than a 360 failing. But 1:200000 is quite different from 1:4 (25%) or even 1:100 (1%)

When you have a failure rate this high, it's pretty hard to say "oh no one is perfect, it's hard to catch these kinds of mistakes".
 
It doesn't have to be cheap solder. It could simply be solder for which there is no extensive reliability data in this environment. The solution could be as simple as switching solder, and it may not even be more expensive but simply a different brand or formulation. However, nobody knows that in 2005 or even 2006.

And remember what came in during this period: RoHS.
 
My problem is with people trying to pass this off as good news.

Really its only "good news" to hardcore gamers who already own a 360.

To the rest of the world it is bad news. Frankly having to make a press release admitting you made a $1 Billion dollar mistake is just about the worst possible news a company could make.

The PR damage of this has the potential to be even bigger than the financial damage to MS. A bunch of angry gamers complaining on message boards does not get mainstream attention. A company losing 1 billion dollars does. Now this dirty little secret is making headlines in print and making the rounds on pretty much every TV news outlet. Millions of potential customers who never heard about the RROD before, now know that the 360 a risky buy due to it's unreliability. This is not a good thing.

For a recent example of what poor reliability can have on a company's market share just look at what happened to Dell in the last couple years.

And about the 25% number people have been throwing around. We still do not fully understand the extent of the failure rate. We knew from a very high volume of anecdotal evidence that it is very high. But even when that was all we had, the apologists were sticking with the company line saying it was 3-5%. An now a 25% number shows up on FOX news (of all places) and people have been trying to pass it off as a) "not that bad" and b) a factual figure.

They simply should not have rushed their product out to market. The ship now, patch later mentality might work fine for MS's software but in the HW business it's a recipe for disaster. As consumers, we should not be so accepting of such tactics.

Read Shifty's post as it really should just be the last before this thread was closed. Everytime theres a widespread issue with hardware or software, it doesnt need to be a conspiracy or 'tactics' as you put it.

Rest assured, whatever price there is to be paid for poor engineering, poor testing, or poor response time, or just plain bad luck, Microsoft will be paying it.

Is this good news? The existence of a hardware issue that will impact millions of people who paid for the system is not good news. However, in the context of this board, we already knew about the problem. The 'bad news' part of this wasnt really news at all to us, so the Microsoft response is 'good news' because it restores faith in the company and the system we've invested in.

As for the financial impact, its already in the past for MS now and the stock price took a massive .07% hit by close on Friday. I think they, and the xbox brand, be ok so long as theyve really isolated and fixed the issue. IIRC, there have been consoles in the past with some severe hardware issues and in the end, the were only remembered for the games that were on them and their financial success.

I understand Sony has taken their lumps in the media recently, some deserved, I hope that people arent taking that frustration and transferring here as an opportunity to point and laugh at 360 owners. At the end, we're all gamers, we all work hard to enjoy these pricey toys and we all deserve to be treated fairly. Friday, Microsoft did step up to the plate and give those consumers all they could have asked for. In this day and age, as sad as it is, that is very good news.
 
As for the financial impact, its already in the past for MS now and the stock price took a massive .07% hit by close on Friday. I think they, and the xbox brand, be ok so long as theyve really isolated and fixed the issue. IIRC, there have been consoles in the past with some severe hardware issues and in the end, the were only remembered for the games that were on them and their financial success.
What other severe hardware issues in consoles reached the 20% over failure rate and had been officially denied for over a year?

The financial impact will affect future decisions such as a price drop.
 
My problem is with people trying to pass this off as good news.

Really its only "good news" to hardcore gamers who already own a 360.

Actually it's good news to anyone who was aware of the 360's reliability issues.

You can now buy a 360, without having to shell an extra $50 for extended warrantee, and have the peace of mind that whatever happens you won't have to pay a penny in the future.

You doom and gloom guys make me laugh, really!
 
I don't have a problem with 360 failures , the percentage of failures, or the compensations they(microsoft) are putting in place. What I do have a problem with was the downplaying of the situation when Microsoft obviously knew the actual failure rate of the systems in circulation.

Microsoft's actions and attitude was this: "Ok we were caught... here's what we'll do then" when it should have been: "We think there might be a problem, keep us posted and we'll do what we can to fix it".

I guess my point is, it shouldn't have taken a media disaster for Microsoft to come out and admit something is wrong. It is not an act of good will when you leave your customers wondering what is going on with the systems currently in consumer hands. I have never had any issues with mine(knock on wood), but like most well read consumers, I knew of the issue... not to mention 2 of my friends are on their 3rd 360s. So consumers in the know were left with the burden of estimating the chances that their system would fail based on unproven stories, pages of muck/trolling and word of mouth... all that with no reassurances from Microsoft! That is unacceptable if you ask me and isn't my idea of good customer service.

That being said, it is a good thing they are owning up to this debacle and even better that they are showing some good will to their customers. Hey, it could be worse right? You know, like how things were 6 months ago with reoccurring red light stories... all the while Microsoft was blatantly saying to the press that it is an issue occurring in a negligible amount of systems. Well, their decision to extend the warranty three fold clearly states that the issue WAS greater than they were willing to admit... and that they knew it all along. Why did you wait, Microsoft?
 
I don't have a problem with 360 failures , the percentage of failures, or the compensations they(microsoft) are putting in place. What I do have a problem with was the downplaying of the situation when Microsoft obviously knew the actual failure rate of the systems in circulation.

Microsoft's actions and attitude was this: "Ok we were caught... here's what we'll do then" when it should have been: "We think there might be a problem, keep us posted and we'll do what we can to fix it".

I guess my point is, it shouldn't have taken a media disaster for Microsoft to come out and admit something is wrong. It is not an act of good will when you leave your customers wondering what is going on with the systems currently in consumer hands. I have never had any issues with mine(knock on wood), but like most well read consumers, I knew of the issue... not to mention 2 of my friends are on their 3rd 360s. So consumers in the know were left with the burden of estimating the chances that their system would fail based on unproven stories, pages of muck/trolling and word of mouth... all that with no reassurances from Microsoft! That is unacceptable if you ask me and isn't my idea of good customer service.

That being said, it is a good thing they are owning up to this debacle and even better that they are showing some good will to their customers. Hey, it could be worse right? You know, like how things were 6 months ago with reoccurring red light stories... all the while Microsoft was blatantly saying to the press that it is an issue occurring in a negligible amount of systems. Well, their decision to extend the warranty three fold clearly states that the issue WAS greater than they were willing to admit... and that they knew it all along. Why did you wait, Microsoft?


Wow, after reading through some of the posts in this thread I'm happy to see many will not have much to complain about now that MS has addressed this issue again. MS first addressed broken 360's shortly after launch by allowing any unit with problems to be exchanged no questions asked for a limited period of time(apologize for not having a link for proof). I remember because I took advantage of it just in case my launch unit took a dump.

Now MS has extended the warranty and will honor refunds to all who paid for repairs. Great gesture, simple as that, can we stop the hate and just move on?
 
Actually it's good news to anyone who was aware of the 360's reliability issues.

You can now buy a 360, without having to shell an extra $50 for extended warrantee, and have the peace of mind that whatever happens you won't have to pay a penny in the future.
I gotta side with inefficient on that point. You don't buy a warranty with the expectation of using it; you buy it as a precaution. The same holds true for the manufacturer's warranty. It's certainly good news for existing owners. Assuming they fixed the issue, kind of a wash for potential owners. And certainly having a reliablility issue associated with the hardware is not good PR. Then again, Apple had battery issues with their 1st or 2nd gen iPods, with battery replacements costing almost as much as a new unit. They made it through that PR mess OK.
 
i live in california i personally know around 18 xbox 360 console owners out of the 18, 1 DOA not launch console, 1RROD launch consle. mine works fine bought it a month after launch and play long hours on it. for me thats a 11% failure rate from sunch a small pool of people. i know alot of ps3 owners, none have crapped out on them. plus i still have the stigma of the older window programs green/black/blue screens. but my 98 and xp have been working well

im not saying sony knows what they are doing, ive had lots of headaches from sony products in the past; dvd player,sound system,cd player, ps2 launch all crap out on me and got no replacement becuase its past 90 days and all lasting less then a year. my dell and mac computers both have to be replaced as well as loads of headache going through support for my faulty sony batterys that just heat up. but hey my camera, ps1 and ps3 is working

all nintndo products work with the exception of my old nintendo got that replaced 4 times but i dont miss blowing into the console days

all company have probems and this 3 year is a god send to me, but its still not a excuse to bad QC
 
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