LAIR Thread - * Rules: post #469

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Watch the videos from other games of this type and you'll see that Lair doesn't have more issues (are you this unfair too all console titles? Must have done quite a lot of flaming in the GoW threads for the game not even being close to crysis and having 2D grass).

I try to be objective no mather what machine or game. I can point out flaws in PC games to such as to aggressive LOD and more. But I mod the PC games I have to fit my hunger for graphical IQ with such things as changing LOD, draw distance, detail and more. My singleplayer BF2 has average 1.2 million/polygons per frame...

Oh and no need to put anything in bold as I got all the videos from the 3 gaming sites in HD.

Just trying to be helpful...

So you played the game? Let's stay with what actually can be seen in these videos. :)

It is very obvious by looking at the videos. The soldiers always walk slowly against the dragon in a frontal attack with the same posture for all soldiers. Some back of from the dragon with the same "sneak" walk speed. Imagine the soldiers throw themself to the side to evade, kneel and use the shield as full body cover. They all die the same way, lie down dead on the ground in the same posture, die in almost the same posture...

Napoleon would love to have people thinking like you in his army to divert the enemy's fire. ;)

Indeed, but then all of the worlds population would have spoken french by now...

Look at how fast the dragon moves, no way is that even possible especially because the dragon plows through the soldiers.

The dragon doesn't move fast all the time. And I actually watch the videos both in full speed and slow-motion. ;)

Must have done quite a lot of flaming in the GoW threads for the game not even being close to crysis and having 2D grass.

Crysis may be the graphically most advanced game but that doesn't mean other games are bad for that. If that was the case then I wouldn't be playing any other game on PC or console and be very pleased with the graphics. GoW is a pearl, looks great but shure it has it's flaws as all games do including Crysis. And some games have flaws that stand out quite a bit to.

But in the end isn't this a more technical forum to discuss games deeper?
 
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Maybe he is talking about something like "full 1080P" because this :

http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/16/


From beyond3d.com:
Since its launch last November, Sony's latest gaming platform has given early adopters trouble when attempting to play certain titles in 1080i/p. The console did not automatically upscale its video output to desired resolutions; it was up to either the game software to support these resolutions natively or the internal scalers of users' HDTVs. This forced many people, developers and owners alike, to question the very existence of scaling hardware in the PlayStation 3.

With the latest PlayStation 3 software development kit (SDK) update, Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. (SCEI) has finally exposed part of the built-in hardware scaler to developers.

Will this mean that most, if not all, future games will support output at 1080p/i resolutions? Moreover --and this is the question that owners of 1080i-only CRT HDTVs crave to see answered--does this mean that current PS3 games may eventually support the native HD resolution of their televisions? Well, the answer requires some good old-fashioned explanation, so let's start already!

Full Story: beyond3d.com
 
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Why is everyone assuming it is upscaling to 1080p, not downscaling from 1080p to 720p? The 'AA' gives a hint about what is going on, but still, negativity.
 
Crysis may be the graphically most advanced game but that doesn't mean other games are bad for that. If that was the case then I wouldn't be playing any other game on PC or console and be very pleased with the graphics. GoW is a pearl, looks great but shure it has it's flaws as all games do including Crysis. And some games have flaws that stand out quite a bit to.

But in the end isn't this a more technical forum to discuss games deeper?

I have to agree totally with this, but additionally I ll say that "technically more advanced" is less important than "artistically more advanced".

There are many games that technically are far better but its not very few times that we enjoy artistically more creative games than technically more advanced games.

ZOE2's smart use of what was available made the game look stanning, and diachronically may last longer visually. Same goes for Shadow of Colossus and ICO. These games are beautiful to watch and enjoy artistically. I will go as far as to say that due to great use of art I still enjoy Omega Boost as much as my PS2 games visually because of great use of art! The last stage of that game was and still is phenomenal! And its on PS1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jHwZFm4Vh4
DOOM3 does every effect possible technically better than any of these games. But visually it grows tiredsome soon.

And this is one of the things I dont like on PCs and one of the reasons XBOX which was a more powerful machine paled in comparison many times next to PS2's weaker hardware. Developers who push only the technical aspect of graphics on the most powerful hardware will never match the work of developers who exploit whats available from a limited and weaker hardware creatively.

This is were the talent of the developer truelly excels. Crytek and other PC developers may excite us with what they have achieved on superior hardware that is so expensive and powerful only few can buy, but for me the real work is on games such as Heavenly Sword, Gears of War, Uncharted, Mass Effect etc
 
"Run" is ambiguous as is "full". PGR3 runs in full 720p. The question is will Lair resolve a complete (pixel unique) 1080p framebuffer or will there be some sort of pixel skewing, scaling, or other techniques that result in the game rendering less than 2 megapixels.

There are fine lines in there. e.g. Lost Planet's particle system is running at a quarter resolution I believe yet renders the game at full 720p. Is that a full 720p game? I would say absolutely yes. But the question is where does "full" begin and end and I don't put it past any PR departments to blur those lines, especially with the importance of check boxes and bulletpoints to the corporate PR and certain segments of fans.

to be honest im actually rendering 2 buffers at quarter resolution, the DOF + the glow buffer, visually u will hardly see a difference since both are blurred.
i do render particles at full ( perhaps native is a better term) resolution because visually there is a big difference with those ( i wish i could do 1/4 res though)

my definition is

the res is what it outputs/renders the meat + potatoes of the scene with, ie the solid polygons

thus pgr3 is NOT a 720p game, lost planet is (though i cant see how they can get away for 1/4res particles, ive tried it + for certain particles it looks crap)
 
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Yeah and tons of geometry,incredible animation in a old trailer...who knows ho will end the form of this game.Who knows....;)
Yeah, animation was great (if it wasn't scripted), but tons of geometry? I hardly call a few trees "tons of geometry". Lair is way, WAY beyond Uncharted in that department.
 
Yeah, animation was great (if it wasn't scripted), but tons of geometry? I hardly call a few trees "tons of geometry". Lair is way, WAY beyond Uncharted in that department.

yeah for tons of geometry is the amount of polygon for nathan,enemies and enviroment.It's the only game that reminds me to play with cgish graphics.And we don't know how the final game will be because if naughty dog hide so much this game it must be a reason.... and lair is completely totally kind of game.If the jungle of uncharted will be so large like environment's lair I would be bored to walk from point to another (remember jak and daxter....).Surely lair will have the most large environment in a game but this not exclude that uncharted will be unimpressive,specially if you think that naughty dog are the coders of this game :D
 
yeah for tons of geometry is the amount of polygon for nathan,enemies and enviroment.It's the only game that reminds me to play with cgish graphics.And we don't know how the final game will be because if naughty dog hide so much this game it must be a reason.... and lair is completely totally kind of game.If the jungle of uncharted will be so large like environment's lair I would be bored to walk from point to another (remember jak and daxter....).Surely lair will have the most large environment in a game but this not exclude that uncharted will be unimpressive,specially if you think that naughty dog are the coders of this game :D
Uncharted MIGHT be impressive SOMEDAY. But right now, is just too far below Lair when it comes to graphics.
 
I saw this game at TGS last year, where besides the excessive V-Sync issues it was having, it was, at the very least, graphically impressive.

It was kind of cool to fly around using the 6-Axis, but I didn't have enough time with it to form an opinion about the gameplay.

In any case I thought it looked very nice, and I think these new videos make it look even better, so it's definately a title worth keeping an eye on. IMHO.
 
thus pgr3 is NOT a 720p game, lost planet is (though i cant see how they can get away for 1/4res particles, ive tried it + for certain particles it looks crap)
They actually use 1/4 res only for particles very close to a player, thus having only minimal impact on fillrate when explosion hits next to player and maintaining good quality when there is transparent stuff further away.
 
not sure if this was posted, but Factor five says that resolution has little effect on this particular game, which is why it can run at 1080p.

http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/action/lair/news.html?sid=6169007&om_act=convert&om_clk=gumballs&tag=gumballs%3Bimg%3B1&page=2

For most of its history, Factor 5 has developed games exclusively for one platform at a time, which has naturally allowed the team to exploit more of that target platform's potential than if it were creating a game that ran on multiple systems. That tradition will continue on the PS3, with the developer's coding wizards performing a number of advanced tricks to raise Lair's visual caliber. We saw the game running at 720p resolution, but Eggebrecht said the final game will also have a 1080p option, and both modes are targeted to run at 30 frames per second, since resolution apparently has little impact on overall frame rate in this particular game.
 
Simple, really. From the intrinsic pixel sizes, it's clear that the three heads each needed a different level of zoom for them to appear to be all the same size in the 3-way comparison. However, a head that takes up just 10% of the screen is naturally going to have a different LOD than a head that takes up 25% of the screen, as the former would be farther from the camera than the latter.

The left-most head has the largest pixels and thus greatest zoom and lowest LOD. The middle head has the least zoom and highest LOD. The right head is in between the first two.

Ah..thanks, that makes much more sense. I wasn't aware the IGN shot was zoomed in so much.:smile:
 
Umm what's so incredible about using a particle emissions system?
A high density one would eat up fillrate like there's no tomorrow. Fillrate is a scarce ressource on RSX.

And please, please don't ever again say that the only recourse is fluid simulation (I'm guessing ur referring to fluid dynamics?). 2 points. The first is that fluid simulation is a completely useless term unless you specify the paramaters of what you are simulating, how finely, and what kind of simulation you are using (are you talking about a 100M molecule physics based sim?).
I wouldn't be using the the term fluid simulation (which is the correct term, by the way) if I wasn't refering to a complex fluid solver. Saying that it needs to be a complex is redudant, since you can tell a fluid animation solver from the good old textured large planes based stuff in a second. They're so obviously different in their implementations, their computational load and their visible look, that it goes without saying that they're not the same.

For those interested in the fluid simulation solvers, check Nick Foster's work and Ron Fedkiw's, for the academic and off-line side of stuff.

For the real-time solvers you can check :
http://graphics.cs.uiuc.edu/svn/kcrane/web/project_fluid.html
Keenan is the guy who worked the smoke box demo for the G80, he has the most impressive real time fluid simulation stuff going on at this time, that I'm aware of (and I keep myself up-to-date with these techs).

http://www.ss.iij4u.or.jp/~amada/fluid/
Old stuff, but interesting nonetheless.

Something worth of note is that I was dismissive about fire based on fluid solvers, saying that I didn't see one that was really impressive in real time, well after checking back Keenan stuff, I hav eto say that I either didn't pay attention the first time I saw it, or he did more work on it in the mean time, because it looks mighty fine now:

fire.png


Be sure to check the video.

The 2nd is that fluid dynamics are certainly not at all necessary to implement decent looking fire. Volumetric effects like smoke are done in the same way as good fire is (good by our standards) in games like Crysis and many others.
What do you call volumetric effects? Because a simple particle emssion is a volumetric effect. Old PS2 games, such as Silent Hill 2, claimed to use volumetric fog, which was technically true, if we go by the definition that volumetric means, in a broad sense, that it has something to do with volumes.

More complex volumetric fog/particle systems, which uses raytracing/raycasting, are interesting only when they're covering most of the screen/camera space (fog/rain), and seem out of place for creating fireballs.

From the old tech video I saw, Crysis just use a high density particle system, with the particles changing in time (from top to bottom), and it uses soft particles (an effect that blends the particles into the environment, which take care of the "card box passing throught the ground and object" effect).
And, in this case, after rewatching the effect again, I rest my case, it still doesn't look good. In other words, it suffers from the same issue Lair has, the fire textures do not look good, but where Crysis has to do deal with small entities, due to the high density of their particle system, and thus can't do much to the texture work on the flames without creating artifacts due to high frenquency textures, Lair, on the other hand, uses for their dragon's fireballs, more primitive, very large particles, therefore better/high frequency textures would look alright in this game.

It wouldn't scream "next-gen" effect, but it would sure look better than low resolution textures.
 
"For most of its history, Factor 5 has developed games exclusively for one platform at a time, which has naturally allowed the team to exploit more of that target platform's potential than if it were creating a game that ran on multiple systems. That tradition will continue on the PS3, with the developer's coding wizards performing a number of advanced tricks to raise Lair's visual caliber. We saw the game running at 720p resolution, but Eggebrecht said the final game will also have a 1080p option, and both modes are targeted to run at 30 frames per second, since resolution apparently has little impact on overall frame rate in this particular game."


They should focus on getting the game to run at 60fps instead of 1080p IMO. I'm disappointed to hear that Lair only run at 30fps.
 
Guys, let's put an end to the Uncharted off topic talk, please.

If some of you guys have divergent opinions on that game technology, that's fine. But let's try to keep the argumentation materials for a more appropriate thread, like a thread about it, for instance. ;)
 
They should focus on getting the game to run at 60fps instead of 1080p IMO. I'm disappointed to hear that Lair only run at 30fps.

Personally I think epic games that don't involve twitch gameplay look better at 30fps than 60, as it makes proceedings feel more like a movie than an episode of Eastenders.
 
They should focus on getting the game to run at 60fps instead of 1080p IMO. I'm disappointed to hear that Lair only run at 30fps.

1080p is probably much easier to do than 60fps with that type of game.
To get 60fps too much compromises have to be done to scale and/or graphics. One can only imagine how hard the whining and bitching would be in that case.
 
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