WiiGeePeeYou (Hollywood) what IS it ?

[darkblu]

I didn't say overclocked, I said running at higher frequencies. I have already stated what I feel the hardware to be in this thread and frankly I don't expect to be proven wrong.

i take it you're referring to this:

Well, consistent with the Wii being a Gamecube running at moderately higher clockspeeds

your feeling above about the hardware does not explain how a game like mp3 is possible on it. the closest amount of vertex work demonstrated on the cube that i have seen is running at unstable 30s. the previous mp's had nowhere near this amount of vertex work. so how much higher do you think those frequencies have been raised while supposedly keeping the same old cube parts - the rumored 1.5 times? - i don't think so. i'll say that again: unless all the best cube developers were underperfoming badly, or retro have decided their last metroid will run at halved framerates, i see absolutely no way how a 50% speed bump could produce the things we've already seen on the wii. call that my feeling, if you wish.

 

[ban25]

i take it you're referring to this:

your feeling above about the hardware does not explain how a game like mp3 is possible on it. the closest amount of vertex work demonstrated on the cube that i have seen is running at unstable 30s. the previous mp's had nowhere near this amount of vertex work. so how much higher do you think those frequencies have been raised while supposedly keeping the same old cube parts - the rumored 1.5 times? - i don't think so. i'll say that again: unless all the best cube developers were underperfoming badly, or retro have decided their last metroid will run at halved framerates, i see absolutely no way how a 50% speed bump could produce the things we've already seen on the wii. call that my feeling, if you wish.

That was not the post I was referring to, but another farther up where I discussed the memory configuration, CPU, GPU, etc. Bottom line, MP3 looks like it would be doable on the Xbox or another console in that same ballpark (like Wii).

If you want to make the case that Wii is something different, something completely contradictory to everything we've seen, then you should have more to offer than your opinion of MP3's graphics. I've already given you my opinion of them: I'm not impressed.

 

[darkblu]

That was not the post I was referring to, but another farther up where I discussed the memory configuration, CPU, GPU, etc.

could you refer me to it, please - i can't find a post of yours where you give your guess about supposed frequencies, except for expressing agreement with the rumored 1.5 bump.

Bottom line, MP3 looks like it would be doable on the Xbox or another console in that same ballpark (like Wii).

so where's the mp3-corresponding material on the other console in the same ballpack, xbox? - halo2? - do you know what its framerate is?

If you want to make the case that Wii is something different, something completely contradictory to everything we've seen, then you should have more to offer than your opinion of MP3's graphics.

mp3 is apparently the best visual showcase on the wii so far - what's wrong with taking it?

I've already given you my opinion of them: I'm not impressed.

well, i am. professionally at that. but the thing is, somebody being impressed/not impressed has nothing to do here - i've been giving you my quantitative observations. as in: i estimate the vertex workload in mp3 at way higher than 1.5x the previous metroids. that versus yours 'not impressed'. how about you step up and give out that mysterious frequency bump that you think wii constitutes? so that we can actually move on with this discussion.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I don't think the original Metroid Prime 2 would have worked on Xbox, not with that much geometry, texture-FX and regular-FX fanciness, and 60fps (most of the time, I know, portals chugged)...let alone Metroid 3. I'm sure the NV2a is more than capable of it if only it had the available bandwidth, which it doesn't. There's something to be said for ridiculous amounts of bandwidth and a beefy TMU (I like someone's "One TMU to rule them all" remark).

But regardless, Koei has more than shown that they've mastered 4th-gen Gamecube graphics and are ready for Wii:

OMG Wii must be a downgrade from Gamecube.

 

[sfried]

I don't think the original Metroid Prime 2 would have worked on Xbox, not with that much geometry, texture-FX and regular-FX fanciness, and 60fps (most of the time, I know, portals chugged)...let alone Metroid 3. I'm sure the NV2a is more than capable of it if only it had the available bandwidth, which it doesn't. There's something to be said for ridiculous amounts of bandwidth and a beefy TMU (I like someone's "One TMU to rule them all" remark).

But regardless, Koei has more than shown that they've mastered 4th-gen Gamecube graphics and are ready for Wii:

OMG Wii must be a downgrade from Gamecube.

Koei hasn't shown anything for GameCube, from what I understand.

And should we use a developer that has made nothing but Dynasty Warrior games (for other systems, nonetheless) to show technicall prowess?

 

[Guden Oden]

i've been giving you my quantitative observations. as in: i estimate the vertex workload in mp3 at way higher than 1.5x the previous metroids.

I don't know what you've seen from MP3 to give you that impression (I've purposefully kept away from looking at videos and screenies to avoid spoiling myself before I play the game), but I read quite some time ago that Retro had stated that MP3 Wii would look no different from the GC version. Meaning textures, levels etc would all be the same.

So if vertex work is indeed <1.5x previous MPs, then Retro's been doing some serious optimization work to their engine code.

 

[ban25]

well, i am. professionally at that. but the thing is, somebody being impressed/not impressed has nothing to do here - i've been giving you my quantitative observations. as in: i estimate the vertex workload in mp3 at way higher than 1.5x the previous metroids. that versus yours 'not impressed'. how about you step up and give out that mysterious frequency bump that you think wii constitutes? so that we can actually move on with this discussion.

Seriously, if all you are doing is looking at a game and then making some vague estimate as to how much more complex the graphics are...come on. How do you know Metroid Prime represents the full capabilities of the original Gamecube? How do you know where the bottlenecks were in that game? Here are what I feel are the two biggest bottlenecks for both the Gamecube and the Wii:

1: Memory
2: GPU

But if you want to believe there's more in the box than there actually is, then far be it from me to persuade you otherwise.

 

[swaaye]

I don't think the original Metroid Prime 2 would have worked on Xbox, not with that much geometry, texture-FX and regular-FX fanciness, and 60fps (most of the time, I know, portals chugged)...let alone Metroid 3. I'm sure the NV2a is more than capable of it if only it had the available bandwidth, which it doesn't. There's something to be said for ridiculous amounts of bandwidth and a beefy TMU (I like someone's "One TMU to rule them all" remark).

I'm pretty sure I remember ERP saying Xbox was simply faster overall, and greatly moreso in some cases. Cube was very efficient, but it wasn't magic. Xbox was way ahead on brute force and it did add up. The vertex shaders in Xbox were a massive advantage I believe.

By the way, those interviews quoted up above remind me of crap spewed by Atari's PR guys back in the Jaguar days. You can't go on anything those people say. Really, only this forum can answer your questions about what the hardware really is capable of.

 

[Guden Oden]

While the xbox ought to be technically superior overall, the cube should have had the edge on rasterization, particulary where transparencies are involved...

 

[pc999]

I dont think we should start trying too guess if games are or not possible in GC and XB in a completely exact reproduction, because the HW is from the ground up designed to diferent porposses namely the GC one is made to be effecient, good at high fremerates and maybe better texturing (and as Factor5 shows do some great fxs), the XB is made to be a good showcase of fxs (more than GC) but not very efficient or good at high fremerates. This is probably show in this and this, indeed both look great IMO but (althought they share some) D3 does have more fxs yet RS does have much better fremerate and a cleaner image. Personally I think that if Retro is working on the XB their engine would be much more close of the H2 engine and if Bungie worked on the GC it their engine would be much closer to MP2 one, not because it is just what they want but also because it is what the HW allows them to do.

I wouldn't say that after 4 yrs of no visual changes. Through the life of a console, the development evironment changes. Nintendo, MS, Sony, provide devs with updated documentation. Hollywood doesn't have DX as an API with libraries dedicated to software rendering, providing devs with algorithms necessary to perform many shader based effects , particularly at the beginning of development on a new console.

Basically what I'm saying, is any effect created on Wii will have to come by way of dev effort or Nintendo providing the documentation on how to perform whatever effects are possible. Also, I don't expect Hollywood to match R300 in every feature, I didn't mean a carbon copy.

The devkits should have included Hollywood from the start, if there weren't architectural changes. I'll see if I can find a link to the article where, Retro comments saying the CPU/GPU are new architectures.

I am not sure if there is a lack of documentation about the GC, IIRC on the Gamasutra article those Factor5 guys point a lot of time to the SDK samples.

Found this pic posted on GAF, its a image from a magazine scan. Its BWii showcasing bump mapped vehicles or what is called "normal mapping", or polybump mapping. Its obviously comes from what should be considered an updated build. I would presume if anybody has documentation right now on how to perform this effect is Nintendo at the moment.

http://www.cubed3.com/media/2006/September/jb/scanonm9.JPG

I hope its not a violation.

Is there any Bump-Mapping besides in the tires/ground, isnt that just emboss?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

but a 80mhz speed increase is suppose to get the kind of performance gains ati insinuated with the top of the iceberg comment. Same could be said for the CPU.

I'll take actual screenshots over PR blurb. Pr comments are worthless in trying to find out about a product.

I know it's a bad comparison but people need to think how about stupid the OC argument is compared to what devs have said about wii (that are actually making games) and how hardware works in general.

I'll reiterate, I don't think anyone's taking the OC idea literally. The 'OC' concept is one of the same hardware but with more bits and a higher clock. eg. If we look at PS2>>PS3, RSX is not the same architecture as the GS. Totally different. Now if RSX was GS but with 64 pielines and clocked at 1 GHz, it'd be an 'overclocked' GS - same component, just more of it. It'd run faster, but still be limited by a lack of features. Taking that to Wii, is the GPU something different, or something the same, just expanded on? Has Hollywood got feature upgrades, or are they the samew features as GC, just able to do more of them?

The screenshots to date support the latter theory.

 

[StefanS]

Koei hasn't shown anything for GameCube, from what I understand.

And should we use a developer that has made nothing but Dynasty Warrior games (for other systems, nonetheless) to show technicall prowess?

Sacarsm 1, sfried 0

 

[StefanS]

I don't know what you've seen from MP3 to give you that impression (I've purposefully kept away from looking at videos and screenies to avoid spoiling myself before I play the game), but I read quite some time ago that Retro had stated that MP3 Wii would look no different from the GC version. Meaning textures, levels etc would all be the same.

So if vertex work is indeed <1.5x previous MPs, then Retro's been doing some serious optimization work to their engine code.

They've certainly improved the textures and the poly-count. There seem to be more particles as well, etc. So it looks better than the GCN MPs, but it would be foolish to estimate by how much.

 

[Fafalada]

Inst the GDDR latency higher than the A-Ram on the GC?

Not with ARam at 81mhz it isn't.

oh, and of course, i have no doubts that even as it is, nv2a would cream a flipper@240MHz at dot products : )

Counting various "shader ops" and what not isn't very meaningful metric:

On pixel level, Flipper's dependant read has a single cycle 3x2 matrix transform (or, 2 Dot3s per clock) - last I checked NV2a had the same peak, hence Flipper@240Mhz would in fact, be faster at this particular er... "benchmark".

 

[Rolf N]

I don't know what you've seen from MP3 to give you that impression (I've purposefully kept away from looking at videos and screenies to avoid spoiling myself before I play the game), but I read quite some time ago that Retro had stated that MP3 Wii would look no different from the GC version. Meaning textures, levels etc would all be the same.

Err ... I think you might be confusing things here. There's not going to be a Gamecube version of Metroid Prime 3. It's only coming out for the Wii.

The game that's coming out for both systems, with the same graphics assets, is Zelda: Twilight Princess.

 

[StefanS]

Faf, I know Teasy has asked this before, but you might have overlooked it. Do you know from personal experience or an insider friend that the main ram is GDDR?

 

[Rolf N]

well, i am. professionally at that. but the thing is, somebody being impressed/not impressed has nothing to do here - i've been giving you my quantitative observations. as in: i estimate the vertex workload in mp3 at way higher than 1.5x the previous metroids. that versus yours 'not impressed'.

Your argument is based on vertex work being the performance bottleneck in Prime 2 (or games in general if you prefer). I don't think that's such a safe bet.

Geometry (and while we're at it: texture quality) in Gamecube games is IMO much more limited by the small memory than by Flipper's performance.

(that's not supposed to mean you're totally wrong; I expect at least a 3x jump in graphics performance myself, but your argument just isn't convincing IMO)

 

[thejeek]

Forgive my ignorance but, all other things being equal, does a larger texture need more memory bandwidth than a smaller one, given that the number of texture samples needed to render a fixed size triangle is presumably independant of texture size? Can IQ due to improved textures scale with memory size rather than GPU performance?

 

[fearsomepirate]

I think based on what we've seen so far, we ought to be estimating the leap as something analogous GF256 -> GF2. In other words, the architectural paradigm does not appear to have been thrown out and rebuilt from the ground up (as in GF2 -> GF3, or Voodoo2 -> GF2), but there are likely at least a few significant visual capabilities the new chip has that just aren't being utilized to their fullest right now. IMO that's the most balanced way to approach it. After all, we're still seing Gouraud shading and very little bump-mapping, but we're also seing significant draw distance, hardware lighting, haze/DOF, bloom, vertex increases, etc. So I'm gonna guess is that we're looking up a beefed-up, possibly more configurable T&L engine (maybe not a true vertex shader), a more richly-featured TMU, and possibly few other features bolted on that we don't know too much about yet.

Developers have never talked about Cube being a bottlenecked system. Quite to the contrary, they usually talk about how easy it is to make it do most of what it's designed to do. My impression has always been that it has a much lower performance peak than Xbox, but that its peak is much more easily attained without dumping your framerate or something.

 

[denis_carlin]

The Wii is a turbo charged GC, we can't pretend otherwise any longer.
It would be good to have some more details though...

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/733/733921p1.html

Julian Eggebrecht:
"From the technology perspective we are multi-platform as we always have been. We have updated the DivX toolset for the PS3, the Wii, and the Xbox 360 for example. And we do have extremely strong engines on the systems."

"The Wii technology for graphics is well-known; it's essentially a turbo-charged GameCube -- which for 640x480 resolution games is a very formidable chipset. The Wii PPC CPU is well known too, so especially if one has worked on the GameCube, you can just jump in and focus on the main thing -- the controller and all its myriad of details."