The Game Technology discussion thread *Read first post before posting*

[jlippo]

Interesting, really curious to see this in action, or at least explained in more detail. If anyone implements mlaa on pc they hopefully will offer the option turn turn it off as I don't want it on until they offer at least a sub pixel solution, but ideally also a solution that leaves texture detail alone as well. But sraa sounds promising. Bold statement though in Nebula's link where they claim it's equal to a high level of super sampling. We'll see. Their quick blurb doesn't mention though if it leaves texture detail alone and only works on real edges, that could be a bummer but I guess we'll see on that as well. I'm crossing my fingers and hoping we have a new post process aa standard here that doesn't muck with textures and add edge shimmer.

SRAA needs higher resolution normal and z-buffer, so it is pretty clear that they are going for 'proper' sub sample edge detection. (thus no texture blurring.)
I do not see how they would archive a quality similar of SSAA, but MSAA like quality is certainly possible.

Currently this sounds quite close to CSAA for deferred renderers, basically first render image, find coverage and blend accordingly.

 

[assurdum]

SRAA needs higher resolution normal and z-buffer, so it is pretty clear that they are going for 'proper' sub sample edge detection. (thus no texture blurring.)
I do not see how they would archive a quality similar of SSAA, but MSAA like quality is certainly possible.

Currently this sounds quite close to CSAA for deferred renderers, basically first render image, find coverage and blend accordingly.

Is it possible to do something of similar on the ps3 mlaa to solve shimmering & subpixels artifacts?

 

[jlippo]

Is it possible to do something of similar on the ps3 mlaa to solve shimmering & subpixels artifacts?

I do not see why not, but it would mean rendering several buffers with higher resolution and I'm not sure that developers want to do that.

 

[assurdum]

I do not see why not, but it would mean rendering several buffers with higher resolution and I'm not sure that developers want to do that.

This is my question: higher resolution only for cover the thin edges, how much expensive could be on the ps3 hardware? Too much?

 

[AlNom]

This is my question: higher resolution only for cover the thin edges, how much expensive could be on the ps3 hardware? Too much?

Well, the normals have to be written by shader code. Depth is depth output. The rendertargets need to be the same size per pass. You'll be limited by ROPs, ALUs and memory bandwidth for starters. It's supersampling.

 

[Gitaroo]

quick question, the MLAA is optimized for 720p @ 60 Hz correct? Is it cheaper to use it on a 30 hz game?

 

[corduroygt]

quick question, the MLAA is optimized for 720p @ 60 Hz correct? Is it cheaper to use it on a 30 hz game?

I believe it's optimized for 720p, but not optimized for a specific frame rate. Each frame takes about 20ms combined SPU time to process for the worst case, and 4ms in time. So, if you have the spu cycles and rendering time available, it'll work for either refresh rate. Obviously 30fps will be less demanding than 60fps.

 

[assurdum]

Well, the normals have to be written by shader code. Depth is depth output. The rendertargets need to be the same size per pass. You'll be limited by ROPs, ALUs and memory bandwidth for starters. It's supersampling.

Ok. I'd like to see some improvement on the mlaa use on the ps3, because the shimmering and thin edge become a weird problem sometimes (see kz3); maybe will see something in the next SMS game but I don't know if the 'maximum' result possible it has been yet achieved...

 

[AlNom]

Ok. I'd like to see some improvement on the mlaa use on the ps3, because the shimmering and thin edge become a weird problem sometimes (see kz3); maybe will see something in the next SMS game but I don't know if the 'maximum' result possible it has been yet achieved...

IIRC they were doing the shaders per sample (perhaps with edge detect to minimize shader redundancy, so proper lighting on MSAA'd edges) when they were still using quincunx/2 samples per pixel in Killzone 2, so I would think their only options would be to use higher precision render targets or to supersample since we're dealing with other parts of the G-Buffer that can produce aliasing. In which case, we'd be back to square one.

Basically, I'd hesitate to say there's anything they can solve by throwing more processes.

They're already doing a ton of post-fx on the SPEs so I'd wonder about feeding them even more work too...

 

[Cyan]

Same ,here , never wanted to play their mob/gangsta stuff (not my cup at all ),but i loved RDR .
BTW ,no need for any physics to make such water,as good looking it its.

I purchased RDR days ago and what can I say, colour me impressed. I can't be happier with it. The only thing that worries me is if I ever become extremely addicted to it -adding to RDR some great games I bought lately, believe it or not these last 3 years I barely played games- and can't get myself to a hospital if I get ill or if I find myself never speaking to a soul because it's like I don't know anyone & I have become a social hermit...

I kid, I kid. But the same reasons you mentioned why GTA never appealed to you is why I never tried that game. RDR, on the other hand is a lot more close to my tastes and preferences, beginning with the Far West setting and continuing with the story.

I haven't had the chance to take a look at the water physics, as I just completed one mission but everything looks right. The Euphoria engine reminds me of Oblivion, and it still fascinates me seeing a hill, mountain, fields in the distance and knowing I can get actually there.

 

[Ruskie]

"Epic Games Teasing the ‘Next-Generation’ of Graphics for GDC"

http://www.electronictheatre.co.uk/...asing-the-next-generation-of-graphics-for-gdc

Probably updated UE3 I would say,doubt they would show UE4,no need for that now.
There are things I expect from UE3 to be improved and I'm very surprised that they still are lacking in that department.I'm thinking about their motion blur and depth of field implantation,especially the later.It looks like bloomed fog and not depth of field

Bleszinski on his personal Twitter account“Graphics aren't good enough yet, dammit.”

 

[Neb]

There are things I expect from UE3 to be improved and I'm very surprised that they still are lacking in that department.I'm thinking about their motion blur and depth of field implantation,especially the later.It looks like bloomed fog and not depth of field

Try the UDK kit. The DOF is really good. Cant say about OBM never checked if present but ME1 and 2 had it nicely implemented.

Took screenshot of the UDK and the same testmap aswell as previous test map which is a map from UT3. The DOF sure smokes perfomance andforest was sluggish but I ran it with a 4890 and had the below tweaked to increase default graphics quality. Couldn't get DX10 to work thus no MSAA enabled (forcing doesn't work).

Spoiler

ImageReflectionTextureSize=2048 (default 1024)
bUseMaxQualityMode=True (default false)
CompositeDynamicLights=False (Default true but it means less quality for lights)
ShadowFilterQualityBias=4 (Default 0)
MaxAnisotropy=16 (Default 4)
MaxShadowResolution=2048 (Default ~1k)
MaxWholeSceneDominantShadowResolution=2048 (Default ~1.2k)
ShadowTexelsPerPixel=4 (Default ~1.27)
ShadowFilterRadius=2.5 (default 2)

All the below where false by default.
UseVsync=True
AllowSubsurfaceScattering=True
bEnableVSMShadows=True
bAllowHardwareShadowFiltering=True
bEnableForegroundSelfShadowing=True

To bad there was some garbage forech frame captured at bottom to fill it out to 1680x1050 when rendering viewport was 1680x908.

UT3 testmap (increased fog color intensity).
http://www.abload.de/img/udkut32kmzl.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/udkut33qmt2.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/udkut344m9a.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/udkut35fmle.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/udkut363muk.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/udkut3kmog.jpg

Forest DOF map.
http://www.abload.de/img/udkdof-36mku.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/udkdof-42m5e.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/udkdof-5bmim.jpg

Rain effect at forest DOF map.
http://www.abload.de/img/udkdof-2um38.jpg

Forest map.
http://www.abload.de/img/udkforest-72m18.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/udkforest-5wm13.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/udkforest-35m0z.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/udkforest-2umkw.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/udkforest-6vmrn.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/udkforest-4lmev.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/udkforest-1tmac.jpg

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1508520&postcount=52

 

[AlNom]

UE3 has OMB, but they don't make it in-your-face obvious, similar to Halo 3/Reach. They tend to keep that at the corners of the screen and very close to the camera, which somewhat simulates real life if you think about it. Objects at the center of your vision would have to be zipping by extremely quickly to be interpreted as blur. I mean, the game can't tell that you, the player, might be looking at another part of your monitor, which would be analogous to decoupling your focus from where your eyes are pointing!

 

[nightshade]

I mentioned this once before while talking about DoF in UE3, Mirror's Edge had a really nice implementation and to top it off, it was dynamic ie based on where the camera actually focused instead of simply switching between 2 focus point (one for close objects and other for far off stuff) as it was the case in Gears of war

 

[L. Scofield]

"Epic Games Teasing the ‘Next-Generation’ of Graphics for GDC"

http://www.electronictheatre.co.uk/...asing-the-next-generation-of-graphics-for-gdc

Probably updated UE3 I would say,doubt they would show UE4,no need for that now.
There are things I expect from UE3 to be improved and I'm very surprised that they still are lacking in that department.I'm thinking about their motion blur and depth of field implantation,especially the later.It looks like bloomed fog and not depth of field

Bleszinski on his personal Twitter account“Graphics aren't good enough yet, dammit.”

"Epic Games Teasing the ‘Next-Generation’ of Graphics for GDC"

http://www.electronictheatre.co.uk/...asing-the-next-generation-of-graphics-for-gdc

Probably updated UE3 I would say,doubt they would show UE4,no need for that now.
There are things I expect from UE3 to be improved and I'm very surprised that they still are lacking in that department.I'm thinking about their motion blur and depth of field implantation,especially the later.It looks like bloomed fog and not depth of field

Bleszinski on his personal Twitter account“Graphics aren't good enough yet, dammit.”

If it is UE4, I wonder how much of what we see will end up in the final version. Remember UE3's penumbra shadows?

 

[AlNom]

Well, I'm sure the feature remained in the engine. Whether or not it is feasible to use on a particular platform for a particular game is entirely different. And of course, it would have to fit with the style of the game as well. The dual-cubemap interpolation for shadows just doesn't seem particularly useful in a game like Unreal Tournament 3; but who knows if it they use it for recorded cut-scenes...

You'll note that their demo has a very limited environment as well.

 

[Ruskie]

Here Al,this is what I was talking about.

Gears 2

Spoiler

I always liked Black Ops and UC2 depth of field for example,they somehow look more natural and pleasing on the eye.

Spoiler

Although it seems like they "fixed" it in latest updates,dunno if thats PC only exclusive though...

Spoiler

 

[AlNom]

User preference then. They could strengthen the blur like they do in cut-scenes, so it's definitely a conscious decision to tone it down during gameplay, if you could even call it toning down. As I tried to convey earlier, blurring is a cheap operation, and it makes plenty of sense not to overdo it during gameplay. That said, the strength of the blur can be quite high when you get to the underground caverns, but it really depends on what you're looking at via the over-the-shoulder view since the blur strength appears to be based on the difference in depth between the target under the reticle and the environment beyond. With the regular view, I'd be hard pressed to understand why you'd want the background to be blurred out. I hardly see the world that way.

 

[jlippo]

If it is UE4, I wonder how much of what we see will end up in the final version. Remember UE3's penumbra shadows?

I'm pretty sure you can blend between 2 cubemaps projected by light in ue3.
I cannot wait to see their presentation.

 

[Tap In]

They are doing AA (MSAAx4) before post processing, and game is full of PP. So it's kinda similar to UE3 games

Too bad MSAAx4 is wasted...

well I appreciate the varied lighting (tracks are lit differently randomly each time you play)

why would they use this solution and how does PS3 use MLAA if MSAA is hosed and why can 360 not do that?