ZDNet/JAPAN: Ken Kutaragi, PS3 Route To Realization

Fafalada said:
And you also have the argument from viewpoint of PCEngine and co. - namely people that burn a lot of their own content who are used to stacking hundreds or even thousands of discs :p

A CD isn't flat. There's a tiny ridge around the spindle hole, if you make a pile consisting of thousands of discs (it would be several meters high btw so I wonder how that would even be possible), it would be the wobbliest stack anyone ever saw. A gust of air would topple it. A heavy person walking in the same room might actually do it. ;)

This argument doesn't hold water.


*G*
 
Joe DeFuria said:
Actually, if caddies fail, it likely won't be because of consumer rejection...it'll be because of cost.

CDs and DVDs already come in boxes that require more than just a simple injection-moulding step when manufactured.
So if done right I cant imagine disc cartridges being that much more expensive, if at all.
As said earlier both Minidiscs, floppydiscs, Zip-discs and almost all tapes are self contained.
 
It's the latter half of the first half of Toshiba's fiscal year 2004 (April/04 - March/05), a.k.a. Q3/04.

Nope.

The first half is quarter 1 and 2 of Toshiba's fiscal year.

So the latter half of the first half is around Quarter 2. Which means about a August mass production. Unless by Q3 and Q4 you mean of an actual year and not a fiscal year?
 
Grall,
acdrimg04.gif

You've never seen or heard about one of these? (boxes go at least up to hundred packs, and they can be stacked on top one another :p )
Or how about the sleeve bags that go up to 500 discs? :p
 
Faf,

How would you make a stack of those boxes that are "thousands" of discs high? I don't think the plastic in those boxes is designed for that kind of load. Besides, how would you get to the discs at the bottom of the pile, or even keep track of what is where, using such a primitive filing system?

Besides, how could ANYONE POSSIBLY amass that much data that you'd need to stack discs in piles that are several METERS TALL??? Even the most avid consumer of porn must have some difficulty in accomplishing that. Not to mention the time it would take to burn all those discs, and the money it would cost...

No, this is dumb. Those few people who can't stack thousands of BR discs due to a caddy surrounding the disc can keep on using recordable CDs or DVDs instead if they hate caddies that much (or get themselves a better filing system). The 99.999+% other percent of humanity will enjoy the extra protection a caddy offers with gusto. I can't even believe someone would seriously suggest something like this when like NOBODY would have this problem to begin with.


*G*
 
No need to latch on the most extreme like this - point I was making is merely that there are people out there that want to minimize physical space taken by the discs too (clearly gathering CDs is rather selfdefeating idea in that respect already, but then again there wasn't much choice before DVD-Rs).
I brought that reasoning up because the extra physical space taken by the caddy is the only negative point going for it that I can possibly see - anyone that can show me the contrary, feel free, but I don't see it at the moment.

Btw, if you really want extremes, yes I do personally know of people with over a thousand cd's collections... along with doezens, maybe hundreds of VHS tapes and god knows what else - but that's collectors for ya ;)
 
Paul said:
It's the latter half of the first half of Toshiba's fiscal year 2004 (April/04 - March/05), a.k.a. Q3/04.

Nope.

The first half is quarter 1 and 2 of Toshiba's fiscal year.

So the latter half of the first half is around Quarter 2. Which means about a August mass production. Unless by Q3 and Q4 you mean of an actual year and not a fiscal year?

I think he meant Q3 of the actual year 2004. This is actually an interesting time because TSMC may get it by then too. link How ironic, even with all of S/I/T's so-called advanced technology and advantage with the 65nm process, just another lowly foundry could match them.
 
We probably misunderstood each other than, since we were talking Fiscal years I thought he meant Q3/4 of the fiscal year not of the actual year.
 
THose spindles can hold upto 100 cds, they're not that high. You could easily take 10 and they shouldn't go much above a meter.
 
Paul said:
We probably misunderstood each other than, since we were talking Fiscal years I thought he meant Q3/4 of the fiscal year not of the actual year.
Yeah, seems like a misunderstanding, I was indeed talking about the calendar year 04 when saying "Q3/04". I didn't know/get you were talking fiscal years here, maybe I just missed it, but did you say so anywhere near the dates? (cause generally, when talking dates, quarters or years, I -and probably quite a few others- assume calendar years)

cu

incurable, thinking one calendar should fit all ;)
 
Fafalada said:
No need to latch on the most extreme like this - point I was making is merely that there are people out there that want to minimize physical space taken by the discs too

BR is a much more dense storage medium than CDs and somewhat more dense than DVDs, that would reduce the space occupied by the caddy to some extent.

Btw, if you really want extremes, yes I do personally know of people with over a thousand cd's collections...

I have to assume those guys don't store their CDs in one tall stack though. ;)

And Saem... I took a CD and measured it with a simple ruler. It seemed about 1mm thick, with a ridge around the spindle, which adds say another 1/10th. 100CDs would be 1.1dm thick. Add some more for the spindle itself, 1000 discs would be maybe 1.2 meters tall or something. We were talking about thousandS of discs though, so that's minimum 2000 discs. A silly idea I know, but it wasn't my silly idea. I'm just pointing out how silly it is to stack thousands of discs. ;)


*G*
 
Squeak said:
CDs and DVDs already come in boxes that require more than just a simple injection-moulding step when manufactured.

And you think Caddy DVDs wouldn't come with external packaging?

So if done right I cant imagine disc cartridges being that much more expensive, if at all.

Highly doubt it. How could it not be more expensive?

As said earlier both Minidiscs, floppydiscs, Zip-discs and almost all tapes are self contained.

And they're all more expensive to manufacture than non-self contained variants.

I'm NOT saying that a caddy-DVD isn't feasible...sure it is. It's just that it won't happen unless it really has to (for practical / handling reasons.)
 
Joe DeFuria said:
Squeak said:
CDs and DVDs already come in boxes that require more than just a simple injection-moulding step when manufactured.

And you think Caddy DVDs wouldn't come with external packaging?

Shrink-wrap would do it.

So if done right I cant imagine disc cartridges being that much more expensive, if at all.

Highly doubt it. How could it not be more expensive?

Equal amounts of material used, and equal manufacturing cost, equals equal price, no?

As said earlier both Minidiscs, floppydiscs, Zip-discs and almost all tapes are self contained.

And they're all more expensive to manufacture than non-self contained variants.

Non-self contained media still need a protective case when not used.

I'm NOT saying that a caddy-DVD isn't feasible...sure it is. It's just that it won't happen unless it really has to (for practical / handling reasons.)

It "has" to happen sometime, if something like double capacity is gained then it makes real good economic sense.
Look at Dreamcasts GD-ROM it gained almost a third in storage capacity by lowering the error correction margin.
 
As said earlier both Minidiscs, floppydiscs, Zip-discs and almost all tapes are self contained.

With all due respect, this is the most STUPID analogy I've ever heard. Do you know what is inside of a ZIP disk? floppy disk? VHS tape? cassette tape? :LOL: ;) :oops:

You think you can hold a circular flimsy flopping piece of magnetic film? You think threading magnetic tape is fun? :rolleyes:

*cough*
 
The thing that I would like to know about PS3 is what kind of Sound chip it will use. Or Perhaps Sony is planning on CELL doing all the synth ?
Just remember how PSP anounced 7.0. Another interesting thing to know would be what kind of ports it will have (although is too early for that). It would be cool that PS3 had a VGA out as someone pointed out.
 
PC-Engine said:
As said earlier both Minidiscs, floppydiscs, Zip-discs and almost all tapes are self contained.

With all due respect, this is the most STUPID analogy I've ever heard. Do you know what is inside of a ZIP disk? floppy disk? VHS tape? cassette tape? :LOL: ;) :oops:

As I see it we are not talking about if the disc has to be contained, but about the cost of containing it?

You think you can hold a circular flimsy flopping piece of magnetic film?

I probably could hold it, but it wouldn’t really be fit for magnetic writing or reading after. But naked magnetic discs actually has been attempted, see here and here.
Old 5½ and 8 inch floppys was only semi self-contained, you had to put them in an envelope after use. Sure they were less expensive than 3½ inch floppys for a long time, but look who "won".

You think threading magnetic tape is fun? :rolleyes:

No, but with practice it becomes routine.
 
CD-I and CDTV failed too, and one of the factors was the caddy. People are USED to using CDs and DVDs without caddies. Caddies are annoying.

There is no physical reason why blu-ray requires a caddy. Caddies show up in first generation optical media (CD and DVD had them too) but disappear as manufacturing gets better.
 
...

CD-I and CDTV failed too, and one of the factors was the caddy.
Neither of them used caddies. In fact, the only console that was supposed to use caddy was PlayStation(SNES CD). Nintendo liked caddies because kids manhandled CD...
 
Neither of them used caddies. In fact, the only console that was supposed to use caddy was PlayStation(SNES CD). Nintendo liked caddies because kids manhandled CD...

Actually Deadmeat, there were at least 3 different SNES-CD designs. The final one, which had a 21 MHz 32-Bit co-processor, is the only design that had a caddy. It was the Nintendo Disc (ND) that had the lock-out chip in the disc. The Sony 'Play Station' (2 words) or PlayStation, was Sony's 16-bit CD-ROM addon for SFC/SNES, and there was an all-in-one 16-bit Sony PlayStation console that could play SuperFamicom/SNES carts and CDs.

The 32-Bit Nintendo Disc system that used caddies was a joint effort between Nintendo and Philips (possibly Sony also) but that was NOT the 16-bit Play Station/PlayStation CD-ROM. The Play Station/PlayStation 16-Bit CD-ROM was from the Nintendo-Sony agreement from 1988. The Nintendo Disc (ND) that used caddies came after 1991-1992. It was the final CD-ROM addon design. it was shown in 1993 shortly before it got cancelled (like the previous CD-ROMs for SNES) in favor of the SGI-Nintendo Project Reality.

The three publicly known SFC/SNES CD-ROM prototypes were:

1. 16-Bit Sony Play Station
2. 16-Bit Philips CD-ROM
3. 32-Bit Nintendo Disc

http://consoledatabase.retrofaction.com/consoleinfo/snescdrom/

In the mid-1980s, Sony Researcher Ken Kutaragi bought his daughter a Nintendo Famicom and was disappointed by the system's sound chip and use of cartridges rather than floppy disks. Having knowledge and research in this field, he independently approached Nintendo to see if they could use his research team's floppy disk technology. Nintendo chose not to, but were still interested in getting a Sony sound chip made for its upcoming 16-bit console.

Kutaragi did not have the authority to make deals on behalf of his company so he developed a sound chip in secret, only revealing it to his boss, the head of Research and Development at the time. Nintendo then wanted a joint press release with Sony to announce the use of Sony's chip in their new system. When the Sony senior executives found out that Kutaragi had been helping a rival company, they were quite angry. Sony's president, Norio Ogha, however, gave permission for Nintendo to use the chip as it would bring more profits into his company

In 1988, Nintendo contracted Sony to create a Super Disc drive for the upcoming Super Famicom (The 16-bit console mentioned above) in the tradition of the Famicom Disk System. When Nintendo began planning for the Super Famicom's 32-bit successor, they again got help from Kutaragi who suggested the use of CD-ROMs. At this time, most of Sony's executives were still reluctant to help a rival company and so Kutaragi asked Ogha to create a special group for the Nintendo project, much like he had previously done with the Sony Music Division. He approved, and so production soon began.

Previously, it was uncertain whether this project would be a standalone console or an add-on for the Super Famicom and whether it would be 16-bit or 32-bit. By 1991, they were certain of what the console was going to be. It would be a 16-bit add-on for the Super Famicom that sits underneath the system and uses CDs. This was to compete with the Sega Mega CD, which had been announced that same year and due for release in December.

Sony did, however, make a few versions of the system (by this time, called the PlayStation). One was the SNES-CD just mentioned, another was a standalone system that could play its own CD games and SNES games (Sony later developed this into their own PlayStation, but this original version is not the same as the PlayStation we know today), and there was also a chipset that could be re-manufactured by anyone that was licensed to do so.

Nintendo intended that the CD-ROMs would be encased in a custom plastic caddy complete with a SNES-style lockout chip (The Nintendo Disc (ND) as shown above) to ensure they had full control over the game licensing. But Sony wanted to put the lock-out chip inside the CD-ROM drive controller, which is inside the machine, and leave the games as normal CDs (i.e. no plastic caddy). There was nothing that Nintendo could do. Their original agreement with Sony from 1988 granted Sony the right to license all CD-based games for the system. And so, Sony quietly did, and announced the system at the Summer CES (Consumer Electronics Show) of 1991 in Chicago, proclaiming that they intended to broadly license it to the whole software industry. Nintendo CEO, Hiroshi Yamauchi, had no intention of losing control over this process and so he went and made an agreement with Sony's rival, Philips, to produce the system instead.

The next day at a 9 am public press conference, Nintendo's Howard Lincoln announced that he had signed a deal with Philips, stating that Philips would offer superior workmanship since they invented CD-ROM technology. The real reason, of course, was to ensure full control over the game licensing. Sony tried to make Nintendo change their minds by threatening to sue them. Nintendo said they would do some negotiating, but this came a long time later on.

Nintendo and Philips were now developing a SNES CD-ROM system that is to be compatible with the upcoming Philips CD-i. Nintendo would have the full control over licensing that they wanted and the discs would be encased in the plastic caddies, as announced by Nintendo at CES 1992. Philips got a special license deal with Nintendo that allowed them to use some of Nintendo's characters in games they made. This system was to be released by Christmas 1992 (for a price of US$200), but this date was later changed to early 1993. Meanwhile at Sony, they were still working on their own PlayStation and announced it at the Tokyo International Electronics Show in October 1991. At this time, their system was still going to be compatible with SNES games as well as their own CD games and CD software, of which they announced a few educational titles at the time of announcing the console. As mentioned above, though, this PlayStation was not the same as the PlayStation we know today, in fact the PlayStation we know today is a completely rebuilt console.

As Nintendo had said, they were going to do some negotiating with Sony. They had to - Nintendo's top-selling system, the SNES, relied on the chip made by Sony and any falling-out between the two companies would jeopardise the further production of SNES consoles. It took a bit of persuading from Nintendo's licensees, but they finally did come to do some negotiating with Sony and came to an agreement in October 1992. The agreement was for a new SNES CD-ROM add-on, this time to be made by Nintendo, Sony and Philips and called the SNES Nintendo Disk Drive (a.k.a. Philips CD-ROM XA). The agreement allowed Nintendo to control game licenses and Sony could control the licenses for other software, like the educational programs planned for the PlayStation. It was also decided that the system would be 32-bit, not 16-bit and still compatible with the CD-i.

The new system's technical specifications were released in April/May 1993 and the release date was early 1994 (the announced price was US$299). The system was to be attached via the SNES expansion slot and worked by placing the "system cartridge" into the cartridge slot of the SNES. This cartridge contained a chip that handled the communication between the SNES ad the SNES CD-ROM's RAM by using a system called HANDS (Hyper Active Nintendo Data-transfer System).

None of these systems made it for a number of reasons. The various mix-ups and legal wrangling between the companies caused great delays in production. There were also development problems because of the SNES's slow CPU (remember that the SNES has a slower CPU than the Mega Drive and so it would have been harder to interface the SNES and SNES CD-ROM than it was for Sega with the Mega Drive and Mega CD), causing delays. And finally, when things seemed okay, the SNES's Super FX chip came into use and so the system had to be upgraded to better the chip. Nintendo didn't want to continue paying for development when they could build a new console in less time. And so there was no CD add-on released for the SNES and Nintendo never got to make a 32-bit console to compete with the other 32-bit consoles of the mid-1990s, but instead made the Nintendo 64.

In the end, Sony went on to create their own PlayStation - rebuilt from the ground up, Philips made the CD-i and, using the license they had obtained earlier, got 1 Mario and 3 Legend of Zelda games made for their system with no involvement from Nintendo. And there are a number of various systems around that never made it past prototype stage.
 
DemoCoder said:
CD-I and CDTV failed too, and one of the factors was the caddy. People are USED to using CDs and DVDs without caddies. Caddies are annoying.

There is no physical reason why blu-ray requires a caddy. Caddies show up in first generation optical media (CD and DVD had them too) but disappear as manufacturing gets better.

CDTV is a great machine for its time. It died because Commodore were forking morons at marketing, and because they did virtually nothing to get developers for the machine.

If every game had been sold in a cartridge/caddy then they wouldn’t have been a problem.

Ever tried asking a Dreamcast owner, if you could borrow one of his games, and then getting a lecture about being REALLY careful with the disc?
Then you’ll know why caddies will sooner, rather than later be a necessity.
 
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