"Yes, but how many polygons?" An artist blog entry with interesting numbers

[Cloofoofoo]

Kingdom Hearts : Birth by Sleep - PSP

Gameplay stage - 17,903 triangles

gameplay stage - 12,114 triangles

Destiny island (cutscene stage?) - 34,559 triangles

Xemnas(cutscene model) - 5,096 triangles

Terra - xehanort (cutscene model ) - 3,055 triangles

Terra (gameplay model) - 1,641 triangles

Flood ( gameplay ) - 526 triangles

 

[xaeroxcore]

Kingdom Hearts : Birth by Sleep - PSP

Gameplay stage - 17,903 triangles

gameplay stage - 12,114 triangles

Destiny island (cutscene stage?) - 34,559 triangles

Xemnas(cutscene model) - 5,096 triangles

Terra - xehanort (cutscene model ) - 3,055 triangles

Terra (gameplay model) - 1,641 triangles

Flood ( gameplay ) - 526 triangles

Those numbers are impressive por PSP, specally on stages. In other hand, Terra´s gameplay model, with around 1.600 polys, proves how important is the art. It looks better than lotta DC games characters with more geometry. If only Square would had released something on DC

 

[Cloofoofoo]

Angels Present - Dreamcast

Map - 5,864 triangles

Map- 6,576 triangles

Main character ? - 744 triangles

character - 696 triangles

Regular enemy - 706 triangles

boss? - 1,055 triangles

 

[Cloofoofoo]

Final Fantasy Dissidia Duodecim - psp

Exdeath - 1,943 triangles

Sephiroth - 1,635 triangles

Squall - 1,976 triangles

orphan cradle - 11,691 triangles

rift - 7,544 triangles

 

[Cloofoofoo]

Langrisser Millennium - Dreamcast
( characters for some reason arent fully extracted, they are missing polygons so most likely they around 1500 if not slightly over. Gameplay wise its 4vs4)

Enemy? - 1,355 triangles

Playable character - 1,315 triangles

playable character - 1,282 triangles

Cutscene map - 5,792 triangles

Battlemap - 6,148 triangles

 

[davew]

Yep and it sticks out like a sore thumb, Shenmue is specially poor as every object has the same flat lighting and there's no shadows.

It's quite a poor looking game so I have no idea why it's graphics have always been hyped up as better than most of what PS2 could manage.

It took just 12 months to kill anything DC had graphically as it had Silent Hill 2, Devil May Cry, MGS2 and GT3..........those 4 games surpassed anything on DC by a good margin IMO.

While the proof is undeniable, I also think we have to look at the time frame as well. While I do not for a minute believe the DC can replicate PS2 level graphics, I do believe that development on the DC was a bit stuck in the in-between from PS1/Saturn era to what we got with later development with PS2/GameCube/Xbox.

While not nearly as powerful as the later machines, I think we saw only a handful of games displaying the Dreamcast's potential. Had development lasted more than 3 short years. Perhaps games the level of DOA2, TDLM, and others would have been more of the normal, then the rarity. Sure, not all games could be huge budget affairs, but for a machine that had a legitimate ability to put out 1-2 million pps, at 60 fps, a lot of games were simply higher resolution PS1/Saturn titles with some polygon count increases. At least that is what it appears to me.

 

[davis.anthony]

Sure, not all games could be huge budget affairs, but for a machine that had a legitimate ability to put out 1-2 million pps, at 60 fps, a lot of games were simply higher resolution PS1/Saturn titles with some polygon count increases.

There are more to graphics than just poly counts, DC just didn't have the RAM to do what the other machines did.

 

[xaeroxcore]

While the proof is undeniable, I also think we have to look at the time frame as well. While I do not for a minute believe the DC can replicate PS2 level graphics, I do believe that development on the DC was a bit stuck in the in-between from PS1/Saturn era to what we got with later development with PS2/GameCube/Xbox.

While not nearly as powerful as the later machines, I think we saw only a handful of games displaying the Dreamcast's potential. Had development lasted more than 3 short years. Perhaps games the level of DOA2, TDLM, and others would have been more of the normal, then the rarity. Sure, not all games could be huge budget affairs, but for a machine that had a legitimate ability to put out 1-2 million pps, at 60 fps, a lot of games were simply higher resolution PS1/Saturn titles with some polygon count increases. At least that is what it appears to me.

Totally agree. DOA 2, TDLM, IKaruga, Headhunter, Virtua Tennis 2, Sonic Adventure 2...Even Ferrari F355: Those games really took advantage of what DC could do, and showed that there was an improvement margin from a technical, art and graphical point of view...I´d add on that list that gundam federation vs zeon.... Just imagine more games that look that good.... We had lotta of transgenerational games and titles that may be pushed DC, but made with 32 bit era tools and art direction, like Shenmue, Skies of Arcadia, RE Code Veronica and Soul Calibur, and despite that, those games made history and are still highly praised.

 

[xaeroxcore]

There are more to graphics than just poly counts, DC just didn't have the RAM to do what the other machines did.

PS2 took 12 months to destroy graphically anything on DC, agree....But GCN and Xbox at launch, since day 1, destroyed anything PS2. Star Wars Rogue Squadron 2 and DOA 3 showed a technical level impossible to reach by any game released on PS2 in like, i dont´know...14 years?....And you know what? that fact didnt prevent PS2 to show some graphical marvels, that we even thought were impossible on it, like SH3, MGS 3, RE4...Same history could happen with DC if it would had stayed alive. I´d bet PSP level of graphic fidelity could have been reached by DC.

 

[Cloofoofoo]

There are more to graphics than just poly counts, DC just didn't have the RAM to do what the other machines did.

yes because port down like from ps2/xbox/x360 to stuff like psp didnt happen. Like lets say shadow of destiny , dead or alive paradise,tekken5 or outrun2 and so on. With alot of these running at locked 30 fps or beyond downgraded graphics and missing their framebuffer effects. Or even terrible dreamcast ports like powerstone with long load times and unstable frame rate and downgraded texture and lighting. Lets not forget crazy taxi psp which is also locked at 30 fps( originally 60 fps on dc and much higher texture resolution). OR even its own original "high quality" releases like metal gear solid peacewalker locked at 20 fps. ( and it isnt the only game locked at 20 fps)

You guys ignored what Ive been saying all along, it wasnt power but money. If the dreamcast printed them money they would have bent over backwards to down port things not mattering what would be downgraded, no questions asked. Judging how close psp performs to dc despite being 2005 and up , Id reckon dc would have been fine even against the much more powerful competition. Just LOOK at birth by sleep and duodecim, top psp games that are matched by dc graphics despite how shoddy the modeling was.

 

[Cloofoofoo]

Kamen Rider Climax Heroes OOO - psp

Rider Axel - 5,966 triangles

Rider Kabuto - 3,562 triangles

Adventure mode enemy - 2,493 triangles

Vs stage - 2,897 triangles

adventure mode stage - 1,494 triangles

 

[davis.anthony]

yes because port down like from ps2/xbox/x360 to stuff like psp didnt happen. Like lets say shadow of destiny , dead or alive paradise,tekken5 or outrun2 and so on. With alot of these running at locked 30 fps or beyond downgraded graphics and missing their framebuffer effects. Or even terrible dreamcast ports like powerstone with long load times and unstable frame rate and downgraded texture and lighting. Lets not forget crazy taxi psp which is also locked at 30 fps( originally 60 fps on dc and much higher texture resolution). OR even its own original "high quality" releases like metal gear solid peacewalker locked at 20 fps. ( and it isnt the only game locked at 20 fps)

You guys ignored what Ive been saying all along, it wasnt power but money. If the dreamcast printed them money they would have bent over backwards to down port things not mattering what would be downgraded, no questions asked. Judging how close psp performs to dc despite being 2005 and up , Id reckon dc would have been fine even against the much more powerful competition. Just LOOK at birth by sleep and duodecim, top psp games that are matched by dc graphics despite how shoddy the modeling was.

PSP had double the RAM of DC, so DC wouldn't be able to do what PSP did without major cutbacks.

There are also PSP games that graphically out-do pretty much every DC game.

Shenmue 2 is 20fps with no shadows and less detail then MGS on PSP.

 

[function]

PSP had double the RAM of DC, so DC wouldn't be able to do what PSP did without major cutbacks.

There are also PSP games that graphically out-do pretty much every DC game.

Shenmue 2 is 20fps with no shadows and less detail then MGS on PSP.

PSP didn't have double the ram of the Dreamcast though, it's actually less than 40% more iirc. (PSP also uses 4bpp texture compression, while DC uses 2bpp, which could make a difference in terms of memory footprint of games.)

Also, Shenmue 2 is not 20fps, it's 30fps. And it does have shadows on certain things. You're really doing the game a dis-service.

 

[Cloofoofoo]

PSP had double the RAM of DC, so DC wouldn't be able to do what PSP did without major cutbacks.

There are also PSP games that graphically out-do pretty much every DC game.

Shenmue 2 is 20fps with no shadows and less detail then MGS on PSP.

Psp doesnt have double the ram. Collectively has 8 megabytes more ram. 26 vs 34 . Psp cannot outdo the dreamcast in texture quality, you would be surprised how many 32x32, 64x64 textures has to rely on due to have no vram basically. Psp can do framebuffer effects alot better since its known dc is alot slower in transparency( unless its 1 bit transparency which almost as fast as opaque) . And i dont need to mention the fact 272p vs 480p. After going through alot of psp assets youd would be surprised in general how it really is par with dc. Polygon counts and maybe even lower at times.

Shenmue 1 or 2 are both 30 fps games. Are they rock solid no? No they dip when it tries to stream in alot of npcs fast. Peacewalker on the other hand is 20 fps locked. Period. Hate to break it to you but detail wise it actually slightly below shenmue, snake is around 1500 to 2000s triangles depending what he has on him( though ryo is 2k by default and around 3k with cutscene hands in part 2). And enemies range similar. Lighting wise they are both similar. Very static with only muzzle flare being more dynamic for mgsp, probably confusing the fact its using bloom and using some filter to change overall color for lighting. The reality is shenmue , birth by sleep and peacewalker push similar amount of detail on screen, with peacewalker being 10 fps lower than both.

Shemue 2 framerate

Mgs peacewalker

 

[davis.anthony]

PSP didn't have double the ram of the Dreamcast though, it's actually less than 40% more iirc. (PSP also uses 4bpp texture compression, while DC uses 2bpp, which could make a difference in terms of memory footprint of games.)

Also, Shenmue 2 is not 20fps, it's 30fps. And it does have shadows on certain things. You're really doing the game a dis-service.

The Digital Foundry Retro video clearly shows it's no where close to being classed as a 30fps game.

It's a 20fps game with periods of high 20's.

 

[davis.anthony]

Psp doesnt have double the ram. Collectively has 8 megabytes more ram. 26 vs 34 . Psp cannot outdo the dreamcast in texture quality, you would be surprised how many 32x32, 64x64 textures has to rely on due to have no vram basically. Psp can do framebuffer effects alot better since its known dc is alot slower in transparency( unless its 1 bit transparency which almost as fast as opaque) . And i dont need to mention the fact 272p vs 480p. After going through alot of psp assets youd would be surprised in general how it really is par with dc. Polygon counts and maybe even lower at times.

Shenmue 1 or 2 are both 30 fps games. Are they rock solid no? No they dip when it tries to stream in alot of npcs fast. Peacewalker on the other hand is 20 fps locked. Period. Hate to break it to you but detail wise it actually slightly below shenmue, snake is around 1500 to 2000s triangles depending what he has on him( though ryo is 2k by default and around 3k with cutscene hands in part 2). And enemies range similar. Lighting wise they are both similar. Very static with only muzzle flare being more dynamic for mgsp, probably confusing the fact its using bloom and using some filter to change overall color for lighting. The reality is shenmue , birth by sleep and peacewalker push similar amount of detail on screen, with peacewalker being 10 fps lower than both.

Shemue 2 framerate

You do realise you're comparing a handheld with a console right?

And even then still struggling to have a point.

And you keep talking about poly counts like they're everything

 

[Sonicfan]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but DC definitely out performs psp visually. The framebuffer effects help psp out very well though. Psp could never pull off the likes of shenmue 2 without some pretty hefty cutbacks in texture quality, resolution, and quite possibly poly counts/framerate. The thing people seem to forget is shenmue has full realtime time of day calculations, every npc is running their own ai, and has unique voices for each. DC is pulling way more than visuals off with that game!

 

[Cloofoofoo]

You do realise you're comparing a handheld with a console right?

And even then still struggling to have a point.

And you keep talking about poly counts like they're everything

Then maybe youre in the wrong topic, " yes but how many polygons"

Then what about the fact that despite it runs considerably higher resolution, much higher texture resolution and similar polygon counts and lighting conditions What else do you want? All this while having 8 mb less ram that is slower. Or what model rig complexity?
Both used hundred of bones per scenes or even characters, what metric other than ignoring anything you didnt like? Both dreamcast ports of powerstone and crazy taxi 1 and 2 run considerably worse while looking worse( either unstable or locked 30 fps framerate) . And before you say anything ps2 was able to brute force dc ports to run just as well in the beginning of its life.

 

[Cloofoofoo]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but DC definitely out performs psp visually. The framebuffer effects help psp out very well though. Psp could never pull off the likes of shenmue 2 without some pretty hefty cutbacks in texture quality, resolution, and quite possibly poly counts/framerate. The thing people seem to forget is shenmue has full realtime time of day calculations, every npc is running their own ai, and has unique voices for each. DC is pulling way more than visuals off with that game!

Funny you mentioned it but the porting devs( ported hd shenmue) were lamenting that shenmue had a modeled moon and furthermore it was correctly lit via the directional light on the scene to match the 80s calendar. And that the gambling mini games were actually affected by programmed weather physics. They thought such a waste of processing power was insane considering you cant actually perceive these things.

Theres alot of useless crap hapenning unseen in both shenmues.

 

[TapamN]

The Digital Foundry Retro video clearly shows it's no where close to being classed as a 30fps game.

It's a 20fps game with periods of high 20's.

More than 90% of the game is 30 FPS. There are a few areas that have problems, but those are seem to be caused by the lack of mipmapping, which can cause a huge penalty to GPU performance. I do homebrew dev for the Dreamcast, and I've seen rendering without mipmapping run slower than with mipmapping and 2x SSAA.

I've actually thought about trying to hack the Shenmue II to add support for compressed palettized textures, which are smaller than the compressed 16-bit textures the game uses, and convert some textures to 4bpp or 8bpp compressed to free up video RAM, then add mipmaps to all/most of map geometry. This would probably fix all slowdown.