YAPCVC Debate (usability) *spyawn

[Prophecy2k]

As to PC versus console revenue. It's not accurate to use revenue as a gauge to determine whether one is better or worse than another for a publisher as revenue =/= profit generated. The more reliant a segment is on physical sales the less profit is generated per unit of revenue. Thus lower revenue can reflect a healthier segment than one with higher revenue. For example, a purely digital sales (greater than 80% on PC while lower than 20% on consoles) is basically guaranteed to be at least 70% margins. A software title sold physically is likely to average around 20-30% margins for the publisher. For new titles. For older discounted titles that might drop as low as 5% (physical media and distribution costs do not go down when the MSRP is reduced unlike a purely digital product).

Regards,
SB

It's not a question of accuracy but of relevance. And I would argue that looking at the Console vs. PC markets for AAA games from the perspective of revenue is indeed just as relevant from this perspective. Sales revenue is a direct indication of unit sales, and from the perspective of a AAA game publisher, the larger the unit sales the more potential there is for profit growth through further monetisation.

E.g. if Pub A sells 2,000,000 digital unit of Game X on PC with a 70% margin, but sells 8,000,000 physical units on consoles with a 20-40% margin, then the console market in absolute terms is likely to get more focus, regardless of whether the profits generated between both are only at the lowest around 15% more on consoles. Main reason being is that the potential for further profit growth is greater on consoles, as an effort to convert those physical buyers to digital buyers will net further profits for the same sales volumes, as well as the console segment providing 4 times the number of users that you can further monetise through subs and DLC.

What you're failing to recognise in your very simplistic comparison is that those console revenue figures not only include digital sales of full games (which you're right currently make-up around 20-25%, however that ratio is growing steadily), but DLC which sells many orders of magnitude more units on consoles than PC.

Also, average console games sales are front loaded with physical boxed products, with a higher unit price. With steam sales and bundles on the PC side, the average PC game unit price is much likely significantly lower (PC gamers don't buy games for $60 a pop). So looking only at percentage margins isn't giving the full picture, as the pub could in effect be earning considerably more per console game sale at the average unit price than on PC, despite significantly higher % margins on PC game unit prices.

 

[joker454]

If you don't choose your words deliberately to antagonise, you have a fabulously natural gift for it!

Hah you are such a pessimist! No really, there is a certain amount of fear with older people. Take a more extreme example, take a tablet and try having your grandma use it. Often they will be like "no no" or "no thanks", they just fear it and don't want to even touch it without even knowing what it's all about. Now do the same to a young kid and they will grab the tablet out of your hands before you even finish your sentence. The younger crowd have no fear of tech, whereas older people do. There are many people out there, even on this forum, that will not even consider gaming on a pc because they fear it. That's not meant to humiliate them, it just is what it is, it's well known that younger people are less technophobe and will run to such devices and learn to use them with the greatest of ease.

There was a girl I filmed a few weeks ago that was a hardcore Steam gamer, she was just 18 and yet built her own pc and has finished games like Fallout, Skyrim, etc multiple times, she would fit in on this forum very well. I actually thought of making a Youtube video of her showing people how to build a gaming pc and how utterly simply pc gaming really is. I figured if an 18 year old porn star could do it, then the older guys out there maybe would lose their fear and try it for themselves rather than immediately dismissing it. But then I decided against it as it occurred to me that maybe some guys would be humiliated by having such a young girl show them up especially when it comes to tech stuff. Hence I figured the comments section would get ugly so I decided against the idea. I'm glad I did now especially after seeing how easily you got offended after such a simple post I made!

Even as I've been toying with switching to PC gaming the past year, believing it to finally have evolved to be some incredibly easy experience, I've come across issues that only a PC can have (how's about your input device suddenly stops working because Windows has forgotten how to use its USB driver? Or a recent game (Rogue Legacy) that runs at 30 fps and slow motion until you swap to windowed and back to full screen and have to do that every time you start a new level?).

You probably want to avoid consoles then, their games ship incomplete with lots of bugs, crashes, lock ups, controller disconnects, visual bugs, missing features, etc, they are quite the mess from what I read.

 

[Davros]

I figured if an 18 year old porn star could do it,

/Davros has decided that Joker needs an assistant

 

[Shifty Geezer]

There are many people out there, even on this forum...

Really? You think the audience of Beyond3D, a site dedicated to the technical aspects of computer graphics, and especially those contributing to this thread from their experience, are part of the mainstream consumers who don't get PCs and are freaked out by them? We're the guys who get to (have to) help the rest of the family with their computer and electronic support issues! We're the guys who grew up with computers, the first generation of the techno-literati. I would expect the vast majority on this board to be highly technological literate and mostly experienced to some degree. Given the population is self-selecting, there's little reason for a person who isn't part of that demographic to participate in discussions here.

You probably want to avoid consoles then, their games ship incomplete with lots of bugs, crashes, lock ups, controller disconnects, visual bugs, missing features, etc, they are quite the mess from what I read.

That's an issue with the game software (or firmware), which is solved by the developer creating fixes. The issues on PC can come from incompatibilities for which there are no clear solutions, no clear accountability (is it a fault of the game developer or the engine developer or the driver developer or the OS or some other service developer who's service is causing a conflict or another some hardware driver developer causing a conflict), and no rhyme nor reason.

Not to mention you seem to be exaggerating the situation on consoles. I've never heard of controller disconnects for example outside of hardware faults. Every controller is the same and every box is the same and so there are no variables to confuse things.

The two scenarios are very different and no-one who understands the two different properly would equate them.

 

[Cyan]

This is all very true.

I do think though as the youger generation get more and more tech savvy PCs will become more popular, also as older people like me (the original 8-bit gamers) get more time on their hands they might 'go back' to PC gaming. I remember the old days of playing with config files - Windows 3.1 where I'd have a boot menu I made you selected the game and it loaded the specific drivers and settings...and I'm not an overly technical person.

What made me go from PC to PS1 was I started a family and had less and less time to tinker - I'd find myself getting the PC running, overclocking to the max and then not having the time to play lol. Today I am still struggling to get time so consoles make perfect sence, but my youngest is now 13 so I can see a shift in my free time coming back over the next few years and as I love my graphics PCs are defintely an interesting option.

I bought a Wii & X360 just for a couple of exclusives so I can see me doing that next gen - having a powerful PC and just having consoles for the exclusives.

This is quite inspiring. Maybe someday I am going to have children with my current gf and there are certain guidelines there that make me think how thing could be. cheers!

 

[Silent_Buddha]

It's not a question of accuracy but of relevance. And I would argue that looking at the Console vs. PC markets for AAA games from the perspective of revenue is indeed just as relevant from this perspective. Sales revenue is a direct indication of unit sales, and from the perspective of a AAA game publisher, the larger the unit sales the more potential there is for profit growth through further monetisation.

E.g. if Pub A sells 2,000,000 digital unit of Game X on PC with a 70% margin, but sells 8,000,000 physical units on consoles with a 20-40% margin, then the console market in absolute terms is likely to get more focus, regardless of whether the profits generated between both are only at the lowest around 15% more on consoles. Main reason being is that the potential for further profit growth is greater on consoles, as an effort to convert those physical buyers to digital buyers will net further profits for the same sales volumes, as well as the console segment providing 4 times the number of users that you can further monetise through subs and DLC.

What you're failing to recognise in your very simplistic comparison is that those console revenue figures not only include digital sales of full games (which you're right currently make-up around 20-25%, however that ratio is growing steadily), but DLC which sells many orders of magnitude more units on consoles than PC.

Also, average console games sales are front loaded with physical boxed products, with a higher unit price. With steam sales and bundles on the PC side, the average PC game unit price is much likely significantly lower (PC gamers don't buy games for $60 a pop). So looking only at percentage margins isn't giving the full picture, as the pub could in effect be earning considerably more per console game sale at the average unit price than on PC, despite significantly higher % margins on PC game unit prices.

Revenue again =/= profit margin. As well revenue =/= unit sales.

In the last UBIsoft revenue breakdown, PS4 had equal revenue to PC. How much you want to bet PC had far far greater unit sales? Due in large part to each software sale generating revenue anywhere from 15%-100% of the equivalent PS4 title. Which means far greater unit sales. And at worst similar profit margins (per unit sale) while generally having higher profit margins (per unit sale).

As consoles convert more and more to digital, there will be more profit margin. You got that correct. But one thing you missed is that as consoles convert more and more to digital we'll see more and more Steam like sales (which already exist to a limited extent on both PS4 and XBO now) with digital download titles being offered for 25-50% off the current MSRP. They can do that because even at those discounts, they'll quite likely still make more profit than they would with a full MSRP physical sale, hence generating more volume (similar to PC) but lower revenue (similar to PC) all while generating more profit (similar to PC). And without the huge up front investment (duplication, packaging, shipping, handling, etc.) that comes with physical sales.

And I was likely being generous with the 20% digital sales on consoles. There's been a few users who have posted that it's closer to 15%. So it's not quite up to the 20-25% and a long way until the 90%+ on PC. It'll get close eventually, but not for a few years yet. Perhaps by the end of the generation it'll be somewhere in the 50-75% range.

As to whether a publisher will focus on a segment more if it generates less profit. That's up for debate as we see more and more publishers increasing their PC development efforts while keeping their console development efforts the same (Square Enix, for example as well as Konami). Console development will still get the main focus just because there are more overall console game sales for the large publishers. But on a platform basis, PC can and does currently likely provide more profit and more unit sales but less revenue than any single console platform for some publishers.

Well, I shouldn't say consoles will get more development effort. Each of the 3 big ones PC, PS4, XBO will get relatively equal development effort. But graphics, etc. will be at console levels since that will make up more unit sales (PS4 + XBO combined and then PC as well).

Regards,
SB

 

[joker454]

Really? You think the audience of Beyond3D, a site dedicated to the technical aspects of computer graphics, and especially those contributing to this thread from their experience, are part of the mainstream consumers who don't get PCs and are freaked out by them?

Sure, why not. People change when they get older. Heck I used to build the stuff in the early 80s but now I have no patience for any of that anymore. Plus older people tend to be more resistant to change and more set in their ways. There's a reason advertising dollars tend to target younger crowds, because older folk are more likely to just keep doing what they do, stick to what they know.

That's an issue with the game software (or firmware), which is solved by the developer creating fixes. The issues on PC can come from incompatibilities for which there are no clear solutions, no clear accountability (is it a fault of the game developer or the engine developer or the driver developer or the OS or some other service developer who's service is causing a conflict or another some hardware driver developer causing a conflict), and no rhyme nor reason.

Not to mention you seem to be exaggerating the situation on consoles. I've never heard of controller disconnects for example outside of hardware faults. Every controller is the same and every box is the same and so there are no variables to confuse things.

You brought up your anecdotal evidence (which incidentally never happens to me) and I brought up a far wider google search on the topic. Seriously, just google "Ps4 controller disconnects" if you really think it's a non issue. The days of trouble free consoles are long gone.

 

[Cyan]

Sure, why not. People change when they get older. Heck I used to build the stuff in the early 80s but now I have no patience for any of that anymore. Plus older people tend to be more resistant to change and more set in their ways. There's a reason advertising dollars tend to target younger crowds, because older folk are more likely to just keep doing what they do, stick to what they know.

They say it's harder to teach an old dog new tricks. Experience says that this is a very reasonable saying.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Sure, why not. People change when they get older. Heck I used to build the stuff in the early 80s but now I have no patience for any of that anymore. Plus older people tend to be more resistant to change and more set in their ways.

My girlfriend is a psychologist and I ran this past her and she tells me it very unusual for people to develop irrational fears of things with which they are familiar due to age. This isn't a normal or healthy change. Not wanting too still use or do things you used too, because there is a more appealing alternative, is something else.

I was born in 1971 and my parents embraced technology early on. We had an Atari 2600 then a Commodore 64, then a series of Commodores Amigas. When I moved out on my own around the age of 21, I bought a Gateway PC (I'd seen Half-Life) and learned how it worked then built and upgraded my next two PCs and then moved to Macs mostly for professional reasons.

While I still game on PCs (OS X and Windows under Bootcamp and Parallels) I've mostly gamed on consoles since the PlayStation appeared because, for the most part, it's a hassle-free box. When I was younger I had lots of time and little money so spending hours finding the cheapest parts for my next upgrade then spending a few hours disassembling, fitting a new motherboard and/or CPU, and reassembling the PC was not an issue. Now? Well frankly we have plenty of money but time is limited and therefore precious. Like a lot of people in this situation you look to find ways to reduce spending time doing mundane things so you can spend time doing the things your enjoy. Rather than fix something yourself you'll pay somebody to do it.

Because I game infrequently, I like that I don't have to think about updating the games and system software because the PS4 will do that when I'm not using it in low power mode. Resume/restore is a godsend for parents with young children. Some games work with the OSX/Windows sleep, many don't. Overtime I want to game on Windows I have a bunch of security fixes (and a restart or time), often a Steam client upgrade, plenty of Steam game updates.

 

[Persistantthug]

So how will they do schoolwork, CVs, anything on office etc? How will they do things that require PCs like video editing, photoshoping and DJing (etc)? Most households will require at least one of these things which a smartphone/console cannot do (or if they can it's an extremely limited version)...however a PC can do pretty much everything a console can.

Also, I'm pretty sure by device the question was as a 'home entertainment unit of choice' ie tablet, PC, console - smartphones while good for many things are not something I would ever consider using for surfing the web unless I had to.

I'm just trying to look at things from a practical perspective.

Except be as inexpensive.




That's a big deal btw.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

You brought up your anecdotal evidence (which incidentally never happens to me) and I brought up a far wider google search on the topic. Seriously, just google "Ps4 controller disconnects" if you really think it's a non issue. The days of trouble free consoles are long gone.

If you Google "PS4 controller disconnects" just as if you Google almost anything, you'll get some thousands of hits. 31,000 PS4 controller disconnects (without checking how many are actually DS4's disconnecting from PS4s - actually looking at the results it seems to be a dozen people having issues) by pure Google stats is 31,000/22,000,000 == 0.14%. You can't expect hardware to be problem free, and 0.14% is clearly not a software nor incompatibility fault.

"PC Controller disconnects" in Google has 14,900,000 hits. Lots of people using controllers on their PC including 'official' MS XB360 ones and having issues.

If you don't understand what 14,900,000 hits for "PC controller disconnects" vs 31,000 hits for "PS4 controller disconnects" means and how those two search result highlight exactly the difference between gaming on console and PC, you never will. You'll just have to persist with the view that because you personally never issues, PC doesn't have issues any worse than consoles and those with experience to the contrary are plain misguided.

 

[Nesh]

The good thing about consoles is that issues are easier to fix. Although there are some weird issues that may pop to a few who may not know how to fix. i.e the spitting disk issue on the PS4, can be fixed in a minute with a simple process, but the average joe may not even think about googling and finding the solution.

 

[goonergaz]

You brought up your anecdotal evidence (which incidentally never happens to me) and I brought up a far wider google search on the topic. Seriously, just google "Ps4 controller disconnects" if you really think it's a non issue. The days of trouble free consoles are long gone.

I have had a PS4 since day one, my daughter has had a PS4 for a year - both PS4s get extensive use and not once have we had an issue.

PCs however are a daily occurance, be it the internet not working - things just going slow or an outdated driver. And I don't want to even start talking about the pain I went through to install a DJ mixing deck - using the supplied disk only to find out that didn't work so I had to download the latest driver - still no joy, so I used another laptop and hey presto! lol

 

[goonergaz]

My girlfriend is a psychologist and I ran this past her and she tells me it very unusual for people to develop irrational fears of things with which they are familiar due to age. This isn't a normal or healthy change. Not wanting too still use or do things you used too, because there is a more appealing alternative, is something else.

I was born in 1971 and my parents embraced technology early on. We had an Atari 2600 then a Commodore 64, then a series of Commodores Amigas. When I moved out on my own around the age of 21, I bought a Gateway PC (I'd seen Half-Life) and learned how it worked then built and upgraded my next two PCs and then moved to Macs mostly for professional reasons.

While I still game on PCs (OS X and Windows under Bootcamp and Parallels) I've mostly gamed on consoles since the PlayStation appeared because, for the most part, it's a hassle-free box. When I was younger I had lots of time and little money so spending hours finding the cheapest parts for my next upgrade then spending a few hours disassembling, fitting a new motherboard and/or CPU, and reassembling the PC was not an issue. Now? Well frankly we have plenty of money but time is limited and therefore precious. Like a lot of people in this situation you look to find ways to reduce spending time doing mundane things so you can spend time doing the things your enjoy. Rather than fix something yourself you'll pay somebody to do it.

Because I game infrequently, I like that I don't have to think about updating the games and system software because the PS4 will do that when I'm not using it in low power mode. Resume/restore is a godsend for parents with young children. Some games work with the OSX/Windows sleep, many don't. Overtime I want to game on Windows I have a bunch of security fixes (and a restart or time), often a Steam client upgrade, plenty of Steam game updates.

Like me then - so, out of interest, do you think as you get 'time' back you'll go back to PC gaming?

Except be as inexpensive.

That's a big deal btw.

Of course, but it is as inexpensive. It's already been proven you can build a 'similar power PC for a similar price' - and consoles have costs like paying to play online and more expensive software.

 

[goonergaz]

If you Google "PS4 controller disconnects" just as if you Google almost anything, you'll get some thousands of hits. 31,000 PS4 controller disconnects (without checking how many are actually DS4's disconnecting from PS4s - actually looking at the results it seems to be a dozen people having issues) by pure Google stats is 31,000/22,000,000 == 0.14%. You can't expect hardware to be problem free, and 0.14% is clearly not a software nor incompatibility fault.

"PC Controller disconnects" in Google has 14,900,000 hits. Lots of people using controllers on their PC including 'official' MS XB360 ones and having issues.

If you don't understand what 14,900,000 hits for "PC controller disconnects" vs 31,000 hits for "PS4 controller disconnects" means and how those two search result highlight exactly the difference between gaming on console and PC, you never will. You'll just have to persist with the view that because you personally never issues, PC doesn't have issues any worse than consoles and those with experience to the contrary are plain misguided.

Maybe those PS4 controllers are disconnecting from PCs

 

[Deleted member 86764]

It's already been proven you can build a 'similar power PC for a similar price'

This is essentially the line that digitalfoundry keep pimping. I disagree completely though, why would I want to build a PC that's around the power of my PS4?? I wouldn't. If I were ever to build another PC, it'd need to outperform my PS4 by a significant margin.

 

[goonergaz]

It was just a comment to counter your initial arguement of a PC being more expensive. All I was saying was you can build a PC similar to PS4 performance that will do a magnitude of things more than a PS4 can do (which is why someone might want to). If you personally want to build a PC to outperform a PS4 by a significant margin then at least you can should you desire...unfortunately I can't get a PS5 until Sony make one in between 3-5 years.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Like me then - so, out of interest, do you think as you get 'time' back you'll go back to PC gaming?

Perhaps. PC gaming is generally reserved for things wher the PC is either the only options, like StarCraft, or where I prefer the platform implementation, like Diablo III. Plus things like Minecraft, 7 Dasy to Die and other cool stuff I just prefer the keyboard mouse interface.

I don't consider myself a PC or console gamer, I'm just a gamer with differnet platforms - PS3, PS4, Vita, Nintendo 3DS XL, iPad, iPhone, PC/Macs.

 

[mrcorbo]

Personally, I consider the PC's added complexity in initial set-up and the occasional configuration or compatibility issue are balanced out by the speed and ease, when the system is working properly, of getting into any particular game in my collection. An SSD that isn't bottlenecked by the system its attached to and effectively unlimited Hard Drive space mean that my typical gaming session starts with a couple of clicks and within a few seconds I'm in the game I want to play whether that was the last game I was playing or one I haven't played in a week. It is this latter experience and the fact that this experience is the norm these days with the complications being rarer that makes the PC gaming experience more pleasant for me overall.

 

[goonergaz]

Even when things are smooth with a PC there are also issues with the vast array of options one can have, to the point it's rare 2 people are playing the same setup - even if they had all the same hardware and game. A good example would be the chat options. When I played a bit more PC recently (towards the end of last gen - I always find that I gravitate towards PC as the consoles get 'long in the tooth' for the games that run badly on consoles)...anyway, when I did I would play one game with teamspeak and another with mumble. Another thing is when you play against people online, you have folk like me with their 'average' PC - running ok with a standard wireless mouse and keyboard vs Mr Uber 4k setup and his £500 keyboard and mouse running at 200FPS. OK, that was a bit extreme, but on BF4 my PC stats were awful, and whilst on PS4 I'm still relatively rubbish they are a massive improvement.

ps - please don't laugh at my stats! lol