Xbox Business Update Podcast | Xbox Everywhere Direction Discussion

[iroboto]

There is plenty of exclusive software only on IOS.

And you haven't named a piece of software that people are dying to use on IOS, and is the sole reason they purchase IOS to use this one app.
The vast majority of people purchase Apple because they like the Apple ecosystem!

You don't need Xbox hardware to use game pass. I can use game pass on my tv if I want. I can use it on my phone. I can use it on my fridge most likely.

I can use game pass on my steam deck.

I can also subscribe and drop my subscription at any time. There is nothing to lock me in. If I want to play oblivion remastered I can go ahead and subscribe to game pass ultimate for a month and play it on my tv and then cancel it until a new game I want.

Having dedicated hardware creates a lock in effect that streaming simply doesn't have.

And that's great that you have this figured out for yourself. Equally another person could be in the same situation where they _value_ being able to be transient in their technology. That they have a console at home in a particular, setup, but can play the same games they own on a handheld, or a mobile, or a PC, in another location (added bonus for Play Anywhere titles which are numerous today).

So all you're saying is that you don't value that. You only value playing games in 1 particular setup. But if you ever leave that setup, you're not interested in being able to access that library, that's what you're saying. If you have a MacBook, and you don't own a console, and you want to play console games, your only option is Xbox. There are not options here for PS5 to feed its HDMI into your laptop. You have 2 options with playstation, and all of their options, including VR, all include having to buy an expensive console first. It's not for everyone, that's all I'm saying, but a great deal of many of you are making it only about the hardcore gamer group that has the time and money to build a specific setup for their entertainment, cost isn't a factor for many of you it seems.

What I'm failing to see here, for the consumer, is how having dedicated hardware creating a LOCK_IN is a good thing for you. It's NOT. I don't know why this argument keeps coming up. These companies are here to make a profit off of you, LOCK IN back in the day was a result of the hardware being too different to port. It's not a feasible excuse anymore in today's market.

And that's why I'm saying your perspective here is dated. You prefer being locked in even though it offers no advantages to be locked in.

At least if I buy my library on Xbox, at least I know I can take it with me wherever I go; console, handheld, PC, Mac, TV, streaming. I'm at least confident that I have some way to access my content however my future technology needs change over time.

 

[see colon]

The vast majority of people purchase Apple because they like the Apple ecosystem!

More than that, they've invested in it already. Changing platforms means starting their software library over.

 

[rntongo]

And you haven't named a piece of software that people are dying to use on IOS, and is the sole reason they purchase IOS to use this one app.
The vast majority of people purchase Apple because they like the Apple ecosystem!

Most mobile applications are developed for iOS first even up to today. I would say until Android introduced Jetpack Compose, iOS development was markedly better. Also because companies earn more from iOS than Android, you're likely to see this trend continue where startups have to at least first launch with the iOS application. You would call it some form of timed exclusivity.

 

[iroboto]

Most mobile applications are developed for iOS first even up to today. I would say until Android introduced Jetpack Compose, iOS development was markedly better. Also because companies earn more from iOS than Android, you're likely to see this trend continue where startups have to at least first launch with the iOS application. You would call it some form of timed exclusivity.

That's not why you buy into Apple ecosystem. It's not first party software. Apple has no contracts over the software release. Discoverability is the largest determining factor of release and if the App Store doesn't help your application get noticed, no one will buy it.

These are apples and oranges comparisons here.

You have both made the counterpoint that there is no value in owning an Xbox anymore because of lack of exclusives. I asked what the value of an exclusive to a consumer if you never intend to buy it, or play it, or anything of that matter. What is the value of timed exclusivity on IOS if you can't discover the millions of new apps on that store? You aren't buying them all. Most of these games are getting buried under the main apps anyway.

If you have a lifestyle, where you buy few titles, and don't game much at all with no social network on xbox, then switching over from Xbox to PS is a straight forward move, there is no change in your gaming requirements and you get access to a few more exclusives a year, which you may or may not buy. I do agree a lot of people in this particular configuration would consider moving. If you aren'y gaming much at all, there's very little additional cost to move over to PS for next generation and just buy a handful of titles and borrow the rest or buy them at significant discount. Yes, you'd probably benefit from now having access to a larger library, since you're just not really playing games and only choosing to play the 1 or so amazing titles that come out each year, and going back to that GaaS title when you're not playing them. That's fine, if you're in that bucket. I suspect a great deal of 35-45 year olds with families actually have that exact mentality.

But if you are already playing heavily on the xbox ecosystem, you are likely to want to do this on the cheap, whether the games are exclusive or not is not relevant. If the games you want to play are on gamepass, and you are spending many hours playing these games, then there is an actual financial proposition at stake here for leaving. If you want to move to PC, or handheld, or just stick with TV or MacBook, there is no financial loss for continuing with Xbox. There will be a financial investment to move to playstation to play the same amount of variety of games you are playing today and in the end you are left with a console that can still only play games. I really don't care if gamepass is sticky or not. It's only a question if the value of gamepass is there for the user, it is a question on whether a game owned in the Xbox library can now be played anywhere, on multiple platforms, is valuable to them without needing to invest even more. The cost of transition is the stickiness, in trade off to have access to some first party titles that people don't even know if they want to purchase either in the future.

Whenever I read someone is willing to buy a 5Pro just to play GTA6 with marginal improvements, I will largely ignore your opinions because no one else is crazy enough to spend 1100 to play a single game. What that suggests to me is that money is no problem, and that people are more than willing to lock themselves into specific hardware for a very specific title is, plainly, non-sensical in a global environment where everyone has been complaining about the lack of quality of life that our salaries can now afford. Quite simply, they have enough money to sustain a lifestyle that very few people can.

Until a game comes along where they are absolutely COMMITTED to wanting to buy and play does that argument make sense. Otherwise, you're just _hoping_ based on past experience and whatever everyone else is saying, is that Sony's first party delivery will be forever incredible. Which as of PS5 generation, I think is false. How many flops have they had so far? I think many would agree this is the worst generation of first party output they've ever had.

I really don't care if Gamepass is sustainable as an argument, because that is a business problem for Microsoft that they need to handle, that's not a consumer issue. If they raise prices to the point that gamepass is no longer tenable for everyone, that's fine - cancel sub and go to a model where you're saving more money.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

This is why I say that the main customer for a new Xbox is the GP subscriber and there are about 30 million of them on Xbox and growing about 2 million per year at a minimum. My experience with these people, myself included, is that they want to keep GP and would likely buy the next Xbox if the value proposition is there. Let's face it, if GP wasn't great revenue for MS (the equivalent of a 20:1 1st party attach rate) then they wouldn't bother with a new system and just go completely 3rd party. After all, 4 of the top 10 sellers on PS this month are Xbox games.

They also believe that eventually the localized hardware is going away, but know that to keep their GP subscribers they have to do at least one more console generation. The cloud won't be ready to take over until at least 2035 when they can eventually get latency down to 8ms with 120 fps games, which is plenty fine for everyone but the most hardcore gamer.

The end game is a $29.99 per month cloud-based GP with amazing content, but you only need to buy a controller. The controller IS the console.

I can understand why some people disagree with that vision because they don't think it will work or they don't like the idea of not owning their games or not having much local hardware. I'm not in that camp. I think MS is on a 10 year march to that end goal right now. Fail or not, that's what colors their thinking.

 

[Cyan]

The Xbox ASUS hybrid portable has been leaked by the FCC.

https://videocardz.com/newz/asus-rog-ally-2-and-rog-ally-2-xbox-edition-gaming-handhelds-leaked

https://twitter.com/x/status/1920026324392910945

Doesnt look good to me but I bet it feels good in the hands.

can't wait to see the final version. And I also can't wait to return to Windows for gaming, so I hope they create a much more streamlined version for Windows, I don't need Windows to anything productive, there are other OSes for that. Also I'd love to have a desktop "Xbox PC" at some point.

The gaming experience in Windows is still the best by far. The other day I got NBA 2K25 and couldn't play it `cos I was using Linux. I had to ask for a refund. Same with Legends of Eisenwald.

 

[Nisaaru]

The vast majority of people purchase Apple because they like the Apple ecosystem!

Most people don't care about some "ecosystem" but buy a product because they enjoy the product itself, no real competition or because it's lifestyle/status.

For all the Apple products I have bought over the years I surely never ever bought one because of Appstore, iCloud and its closed ecosphere.

 

[rntongo]

That's not why you buy into Apple ecosystem. It's not first party software. Apple has no contracts over the software release. Discoverability is the largest determining factor of release and if the App Store doesn't help your application get noticed, no one will buy it.

These are apples and oranges comparisons here.

You have both made the counterpoint that there is no value in owning an Xbox anymore because of lack of exclusives. I asked what the value of an exclusive to a consumer if you never intend to buy it, or play it, or anything of that matter. What is the value of timed exclusivity on IOS if you can't discover the millions of new apps on that store? You aren't buying them all. Most of these games are getting buried under the main apps anyway.

If you have a lifestyle, where you buy few titles, and don't game much at all with no social network on xbox, then switching over from Xbox to PS is a straight forward move, there is no change in your gaming requirements and you get access to a few more exclusives a year, which you may or may not buy. I do agree a lot of people in this particular configuration would consider moving. If you aren'y gaming much at all, there's very little additional cost to move over to PS for next generation and just buy a handful of titles and borrow the rest or buy them at significant discount. Yes, you'd probably benefit from now having access to a larger library, since you're just not really playing games and only choosing to play the 1 or so amazing titles that come out each year, and going back to that GaaS title when you're not playing them. That's fine, if you're in that bucket. I suspect a great deal of 35-45 year olds with families actually have that exact mentality.

But if you are already playing heavily on the xbox ecosystem, you are likely to want to do this on the cheap, whether the games are exclusive or not is not relevant. If the games you want to play are on gamepass, and you are spending many hours playing these games, then there is an actual financial proposition at stake here for leaving. If you want to move to PC, or handheld, or just stick with TV or MacBook, there is no financial loss for continuing with Xbox. There will be a financial investment to move to playstation to play the same amount of variety of games you are playing today and in the end you are left with a console that can still only play games. I really don't care if gamepass is sticky or not. It's only a question if the value of gamepass is there for the user, it is a question on whether a game owned in the Xbox library can now be played anywhere, on multiple platforms, is valuable to them without needing to invest even more. The cost of transition is the stickiness, in trade off to have access to some first party titles that people don't even know if they want to purchase either in the future.

Whenever I read someone is willing to buy a 5Pro just to play GTA6 with marginal improvements, I will largely ignore your opinions because no one else is crazy enough to spend 1100 to play a single game. What that suggests to me is that money is no problem, and that people are more than willing to lock themselves into specific hardware for a very specific title is, plainly, non-sensical in a global environment where everyone has been complaining about the lack of quality of life that our salaries can now afford. Quite simply, they have enough money to sustain a lifestyle that very few people can.

Until a game comes along where they are absolutely COMMITTED to wanting to buy and play does that argument make sense. Otherwise, you're just _hoping_ based on past experience and whatever everyone else is saying, is that Sony's first party delivery will be forever incredible. Which as of PS5 generation, I think is false. How many flops have they had so far? I think many would agree this is the worst generation of first party output they've ever had.

I really don't care if Gamepass is sustainable as an argument, because that is a business problem for Microsoft that they need to handle, that's not a consumer issue. If they raise prices to the point that gamepass is no longer tenable for everyone, that's fine - cancel sub and go to a model where you're saving more money.

You were asking @eastmen for an example of software exclusivity on iOS, you said you wanted just one. Most of the popular applications we use were iOS exclusives. Instagram, Hinge, Uber, Snapchat,etc. Its still true today, most startups will first develop exclusively on iOS before they release on Android for a myriad of reasons. I have seen this first hand because its expensive to have two separate teams working on iOS and Android clients. Unless you're a large already established corporation with a lot of money, you're likely going to first develop exclusively on iOS, going with React Native to build Multiplatform is also something that doesnt work well. In some cases its suitable for large corporations or startups or small organizations with applications that dont need to utilize native libraries but these are niche apps that arent as well built. But once you buy into iOS you're guaranteed to always be first to try the latest hit app. Back to @eastmen's point, software exclusivity plays a huge role in drawing and keeping people into an ecosystem. If I can play all Xbox games on Playstation yet Playstation has exclusives then I will obviously get a Playstation to experience both or just the exclusives from Sony. He's right imho

 

[rntongo]

This is why I say that the main customer for a new Xbox is the GP subscriber and there are about 30 million of them on Xbox and growing about 2 million per year at a minimum. My experience with these people, myself included, is that they want to keep GP and would likely buy the next Xbox if the value proposition is there. Let's face it, if GP wasn't great revenue for MS (the equivalent of a 20:1 1st party attach rate) then they wouldn't bother with a new system and just go completely 3rd party. After all, 4 of the top 10 sellers on PS this month are Xbox games.

I can see MS execs use this to kill off Xbox hw completely and pivot more towards being a 3rd party developer.

They also believe that eventually the localized hardware is going away, but know that to keep their GP subscribers they have to do at least one more console generation. The cloud won't be ready to take over until at least 2035 when they can eventually get latency down to 8ms with 120 fps games, which is plenty fine for everyone but the most hardcore gamer.

The end game is a $29.99 per month cloud-based GP with amazing content, but you only need to buy a controller. The controller IS the console.

I can understand why some people disagree with that vision because they don't think it will work or they don't like the idea of not owning their games or not having much local hardware. I'm not in that camp. I think MS is on a 10 year march to that end goal right now. Fail or not, that's what colors their thinking.

This assumes that home console hw is going to go away in 10 years. I strongly dont think this will be the case. We're still going to have desktops, laptops, mobile smartphones, and even more powerful wearables. For example today $2500 you can get a machine that outcompetes $87,000 a year's worth of cloud computing hw. For gaming, it wont make any sense not to have your own home console in 10 years from now. The console is still going to be here in 2035 imo and it will be the best way to play AAA titles. I also think you're not aware about the current crisis with the cost of cloud computing hw. There's a huge drive to get back to self hosted or colocated computing away from hyperscalers because of the much lower cost of powerful hw.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1920004157416587760

 

[QPlayer]

If I can play all Xbox games on Playstation yet Playstation has exclusives then I will obviously get a Playstation to experience both or just the exclusives from Sony. He's right imho

Okay, but on other platform how can you buy 10 good Xbox or third-party games that you like out of the 100 games in Game Pass in a year if you have to pay $800 for this 10 games? When you can get all that with a $240 annual subscription on Xbox platforms. It's only $20 a month and you don't have to deal with $80 game prices every time you click the download button.
Who is right will be revealed

 

[rntongo]

Okay, but on other platform how can you buy 10 good Xbox or third-party games that you like out of the 100 games in Game Pass in a year if you have to pay $800 for this 10 games? When you can get all that with a $240 annual subscription on Xbox platforms. It's only $20 a month and you don't have to deal with $80 game prices every time you click the download button.
Who is right will be revealed

Who's paying $80 for every single game they buy? I dont think this is a realistic take. When I was on Gamepass ultimate I still used to buy games for like $20, $40 sometimes even full $69. A lot of games are bought on discount. As well Playstation has a subscription gaming service similar to Gamepass already. You dont need to buy 100 $80 a year.

 

[eastmen]

According to the latest information, the number of GP subscribers is constantly growing. The more good games are added, the more valuable they will be. MS first-party games will always be there and apparently there will be a lot of them.

You can play GP on a TV or washing machine, but like everyone else, there is a player base of hundreds of millions for whom streaming is not an option due to the inferior quality compared to dedicated hardware. These players will need GP capable hardware. Have you heard about the game price increases? Have you seen how much outrage surrounds all this on forums and media platforms? Soon we will see that people will buy fewer and fewer games and at the same time, more and more people will probably subscribe to a subscription model that is much cheaper compared to the actual game prices. We see this soon.

Game pass sells , xbox hardware isn't. We also really don't know numbers since MS had a huge change in what is game pass and what isn't. Remember there is now a base game pass that is basicly xbox live.

Have I heard about game price increases ? Yes , I also heard about game pass price increases. Have you ?

After Steep Xbox Console Price Hike, Game Pass Price Increase Rumored to Be Coming Soon

Microsoft just raised Xbox console and accessory prices, and now there's talk that Xbox Game Pass could be next in line for a price bump.

thegamepost.com

Looks like people will have to pay even more for game pass soon.

A lot of people don't want a $20+ game subscription that will have limited games released to it each month. For every oblivion we get there is an avowed or south of midnight or redfall.

Thats before you take into account the hardware side.

IF sony and MS design the same exact system and the hardware bom is $500. IF sony takes that system and subsidizes it to $400 and MS goes to oems that same system will get sold for at least $600 for the OEM to make a profit. Which simply means any money you might think you are saving on game pass will have been paid up front.

 

[eastmen]

Xboy Advance aside, if there was a desktop Xbox PC, I'd get one too when I could, to play games using a bloat-less Windows.

Microsoft has a new name for Windows gaming, PCs are now Xbox PCs.

Don't see it happening. With all the co-pilot stuff i only see windows getting more bloated and they will likely go and emulate what they are allowed to onto windows from xbox and just stop xbox os development.

Since Eastman thinks streaming is perfectly fine and no hardware is needed he should just do that.

The rest of us who don't think streaming is good enough yet and don't want to pay $80 for games will just get the next Xbox with GamePass.

Plent of people think streaming is fine or are willing to pay for a ms game on steam or playstation. You know growing hardware platforms

And you haven't named a piece of software that people are dying to use on IOS, and is the sole reason they purchase IOS to use this one app.
The vast majority of people purchase Apple because they like the Apple ecosystem!

IOS has so much exclusive software that everyone can find their own exclusive thing to use.

Go ask a nintendo switch user why they bought a switch. They majority will say for nintendo games. Ask playstation users and they will say sony games.

Ask an xbox fan and they would have said xbox games. Thats what I would have said at the start of this gen. Now there isn't a reason to buy new xbox hardware. Esp if there is going to be a price premium for a lesser experience than on sony hardware.


You realize that lock in for these platforms is extremely important. The iphone was a failure until they put out the app store and tied itunes songs to it. Sony and nintendo are locking people in with large catalogs of purchase. Microsoft is moving everything to a disposable subscription.

And that's great that you have this figured out for yourself. Equally another person could be in the same situation where they _value_ being able to be transient in their technology. That they have a console at home in a particular, setup, but can play the same games they own on a handheld, or a mobile, or a PC, in another location (added bonus for Play Anywhere titles which are numerous today).

And people can do this on steam today with a single game purchase. People have been doing this for years already.

Like I have said I have talked to a lot of people prior xbox owners, current xbox owners and people who never owned an xbox. Everyone is signaling to me that there isn't a reason to buy xbox hardware.

So all you're saying is that you don't value that. You only value playing games in 1 particular setup. But if you ever leave that setup, you're not interested in being able to access that library, that's what you're saying. If you have a MacBook, and you don't own a console, and you want to play console games, your only option is Xbox. There are not options here for PS5 to feed its HDMI into your laptop. You have 2 options with playstation, and all of their options, including VR, all include having to buy an expensive console first. It's not for everyone, that's all I'm saying, but a great deal of many of you are making it only about the hardcore gamer group that has the time and money to build a specific setup for their entertainment, cost isn't a factor for many of you it seems.

I can use remote play on a mac to play ps5 games. I can also buy a $5 capture dongle to play ps5 on a mac.

I also feel bad for anyone who spends all their money on a mac and has no tv or second monitor.

What I'm failing to see here, for the consumer, is how having dedicated hardware creating a LOCK_IN is a good thing for you. It's NOT. I don't know why this argument keeps coming up. These companies are here to make a profit off of you, LOCK IN back in the day was a result of the hardware being too different to port. It's not a feasible excuse anymore in today's market.

As a consumer having a company subsidize hardware costs allows you to obtain a better experience than having a company that is trying to profit on the hardware up front. That has been the core to the console gaming business since the start.

And that's why I'm saying your perspective here is dated. You prefer being locked in even though it offers no advantages to be locked in.

At least if I buy my library on Xbox, at least I know I can take it with me wherever I go; console, handheld, PC, Mac, TV, streaming. I'm at least confident that I have some way to access my content however my future technology needs change over time.

I have been buying on steam for over 20 years and I can take my library wherever I go.

Xbox doesn't allow you to take your library with you where ever you go. I have multiple games from my original xbox and 360 that only work on that specific hardware. The same will happen with xbox one and xbox series games also. Steam solved that decades ago.

This is why I say that the main customer for a new Xbox is the GP subscriber and there are about 30 million of them on Xbox and growing about 2 million per year at a minimum. My experience with these people, myself included, is that they want to keep GP and would likely buy the next Xbox if the value proposition is there. Let's face it, if GP wasn't great revenue for MS (the equivalent of a 20:1 1st party attach rate) then they wouldn't bother with a new system and just go completely 3rd party. After all, 4 of the top 10 sellers on PS this month are Xbox games.

Xbox hardware sales continue to decline. So I am not sure why you believe there is a market for more xbox hardware.

My assumption for new xbox hardware is that they simply don't have a choice. They need to refresh xcloud and they have customers who are expecting new hardware.

My expectation from MS is they release one more console , annnounce there will be no more exclusives and part way through next generation when sales are half of what they are this generation they announce the end of xbox consoles. I also believe the will abandon the xbox name and it will simply be Game pass

They also believe that eventually the localized hardware is going away, but know that to keep their GP subscribers they have to do at least one more console generation. The cloud won't be ready to take over until at least 2035 when they can eventually get latency down to 8ms with 120 fps games, which is plenty fine for everyone but the most hardcore gamer.

There will always be people who want localized hardware since it will always be a better experiance. MS just knows they can't compete at this point due the situations they got themselves in with the fcc and the promises they made while purchasing other gaming companies

The end game is a $29.99 per month cloud-based GP with amazing content, but you only need to buy a controller. The controller IS the console.

Game pass is $20 now and articles are already coming out about another price increase. I don't think they will stop at $30.

I can understand why some people disagree with that vision because they don't think it will work or they don't like the idea of not owning their games or not having much local hardware. I'm not in that camp. I think MS is on a 10 year march to that end goal right now. Fail or not, that's what colors their thinking.

I have posed the question multiple times about if Xbo hardware lives or dies , game pass lives or dies , both live happily together or both die.

We are at a point where

Xbox no longer has exclusive console games
Xbox is no longer graphicly the best place to play xbox games on consoles
Xbox hardware is wildly expensive compared to the competition
Microsoft may no longer make xbox consoles themselves which will mean no more subsidized consoles and that means even higher prices for xbox hardware.

I don't see xbox hardware lasting. I also don't see the oem model working either due to the same reasons above.

Lots of people have said the same to me. Game pass doesn't require xbox hardware. Game pass depending on the person and the time could be a good value or it may not. So I don't see things as sunny as you do.

Okay, but on other platform how can you buy 10 good Xbox or third-party games that you like out of the 100 games in Game Pass in a year if you have to pay $800 for this 10 games? When you can get all that with a $240 annual subscription on Xbox platforms. It's only $20 a month and you don't have to deal with $80 game prices every time you click the download button.
Who is right will be revealed

Can you name me 10 good game pass games each year that its been out?

The problem with this is that right now game pass is $240 a year correct ? Pc games are $50-70. So I would need between 3-5 games a year on game pass that I would be willing to buy at full price each year to make it worth wild or a ton of lower priced games.

I'm going to tell you right now I haven't bought an $80 game. The majority of games I buy are $10-30 each year. So far this year there are only two games on game pass that I would have bought. Doom and Oblivion. so I'm waiting to see if there are anymore games . Last year there was indiana jones for me. The rest of the games I played I purchased on steam.

 

[mr magoo]

Can you name me 10 good game pass games each year that its been out?

The problem with this is that right now game pass is $240 a year correct ? Pc games are $50-70. So I would need between 3-5 games a year on game pass that I would be willing to buy at full price each year to make it worth wild or a ton of lower priced games.

Depends on person i would say, and preferences. With GP you get whole library plus many upcoming games not only from msft.
I am paying for netflix but i watch mainly stuff i already have seen, it still has value to me. If you main focus is only new games that you havent already played and from all new games released on GP you are only intrested in 2-3 than yes, in your case it doesnt make sense to be subscriber.
I play diffrent games depends on my mood, sometimes those are day 1 releses sometime is the title 4-5 years old, still new to me. In this case the value is library.
I and i think many users are comfortable with existing library and upcoming titles. Recently i even shared my GP subscription with my friend, we both have access to GP now. For me its hard to beat it. I bought 2 games on steam last year in 2023 i think not even one. But it all depend on preferences, im old fart and get bored with games quickly i rather play 240$ per year to have access to many titles than 40,50,60 bucks for one that i may not enjoy as much as i tought i would.