Johnny Awesome
Veteran
The execs have talent of a different sort. Creators usually make terrible managers and vice versa. Both are needed.
Xbox Business Update Podcast | Xbox Everywhere Direction Discussion
- Thread starter iroboto
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Which is why I said some of these execs. Phil Spencer's track record so far hasnt been good. Seems under him some business functions have performed well and others havent. The sum is Xbox is leaving the console market slowly but surely pursuing the holy grail of a unified GDK. But as we know, this isnt easy when a competitor like Sony and Nintendo are building a single machine that devs target. Sony and Nintendo are going to continue dominating gaming if Xbox continues like this. I now fully understand why Sony launched a legal battle over the Activision acquisition, I was too naive to see it at the time, because I supported it thinking it was part of a grander strategy to provide great games. But its going to be hard to justify MSFT making more large acquisitions moving forward tbh after all they're doing. The most shocking thing is how a group of die hards keep on praising Phil Spencer even as he kills Xbox.
If this interpretation is correct(I have no clue) this would apply to every party and the traditional console business model is dead for all. So where you see MSFT forcing them on other platforms it means these platforms are open for all. That would change the whole platform paradigm and force Sony/Nintendo to change their operations too.
It would lead to higher console base prices, probably some agreed on open platform standards and probably licensed development/OS systems to recover the platform tax loss which can't be directly taken from store sales.
Johnny Awesome
Veteran
Phil's trying to thread the needle. We'll see if he succeeds.
From my perspective as an avid Xbox gamer I couldn't be happier with my Series X and GP. This year's lineup is incredible.
From my perspective as an avid Xbox gamer I couldn't be happier with my Series X and GP. This year's lineup is incredible.
this and the fact that the supposed exclusivity surrounding the Activision deal didn't move the needle at all means that console exclusives went out of fashion and don't drive sales anymore.
It's when you read articles like this one from the "old guard" that you realize how far from reality they are.
‘Phil Spencer, long cast as Xbox’s saviour, may be remembered as the man who killed it’ | VGC
HIT POINTS: Now that all his big bets have failed, Spencer is turning to corrective measures…
www.videogameschronicle.com
They don't seem to undertand that, imo, Horizon Forbidden West isn't going to make Sony sell millions of consoles, and that includes other exclusives. Good games but they just don't drive people to show the same passion like people did with games like GT4 and its unique lighting at the time, or Ridge Racer, etc.
It's more challenging yes, bu t exclusives have driven tens upon tens of millions of Nintendo Switch sales, and looking at Sony's machine, millions and millions of PS5s.
One of MS's (many) issues is that they have deliberately avoided making system selling games. To maximise short term returns and drive Gamepass, every game has to be available for everything and favour nothing.
No games built around RT, no games built around Velocity Architecture, few games where console gamers aren't thrown in to be eaten by PC gamers, a massive de-emphasising of single player, story driven games. Halo Infinite was built around play anywhere, Gamepass, and monetisation.
Exclusives absolutely can and do drive sales, but they have to be the right exclusive made to attract particular customers to your platform. MS rebuilt it's software strategy from Xbox One onwards around eliminating games that would be tied to a particular console (or consoles at all), and when they tried to turn this back on in a half assed way it didn't deliver.
You can bet that Spiderman 2 shifted a lot of machines though!
Johnny Awesome
Veteran
I think people are too hard on MS overall, but it's true that they've released far too many 8.5s and not enough 9s. I do think 9s drive hardware sales still in a way that 8.5s don't.
I'll flesh out my thoughts in the following way: Sony brings out some games, not many, but enough, that are better than the best 3rd party games like Elden Ring, Hogwarts, Cyberpunk. MS games, with a few exceptions like Ori and Forza Horizon, are a hair under the best 3rd party.
The reality is gamers want a few Sony 9.3s to go with their 3rd party 9s, more than they want a lot of MS 8.5s to go with their 3rd party 9s.
Yet the crazy value of GamePass is enough for many to forgo PS and get an Xbox.
If Hellblade 2, Fable, Gears 6, Indiana Jones, and Perfect Dark are 9s, they'll start selling more hardware and GP subs. That's what they need. Starfield could evolve into a 9 over time as well.
I'll flesh out my thoughts in the following way: Sony brings out some games, not many, but enough, that are better than the best 3rd party games like Elden Ring, Hogwarts, Cyberpunk. MS games, with a few exceptions like Ori and Forza Horizon, are a hair under the best 3rd party.
The reality is gamers want a few Sony 9.3s to go with their 3rd party 9s, more than they want a lot of MS 8.5s to go with their 3rd party 9s.
Yet the crazy value of GamePass is enough for many to forgo PS and get an Xbox.
If Hellblade 2, Fable, Gears 6, Indiana Jones, and Perfect Dark are 9s, they'll start selling more hardware and GP subs. That's what they need. Starfield could evolve into a 9 over time as well.
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Sony created the "perception" that the game is only possible with their fast storage system but was it really true?
I agree though that MS never tried to sell something based on a technology "gimmick" lately.BTW,I'm not really convinced your view about GP and Halo Infinite is really the reason for the the state of that disappointing game.
It would also lead to poorer quality software. For example Hi Fi Rush runs better on the PS5 despite the Series X having a more powerful APU and higher memory bandwidth(Devs are just not taking advantage of the hw especially considering the Series X doesnt have like a 4090 in it, its like 25% more powerful machine). Sony and Nintendo's model is much better for SDLC, what MSFT is trying to do the same thing it tried in the 90s, which is one SDK for a bunch of OEMs, only difference now is they will try to force Sony to go the same route because without a lawsuit, Sony is going to eat their lunch regardless. Sony will keep exclusives(although timed) on their platform for two reasons,
1.) Better development environment for target hw specs is a competitive advantage not monopolization
2.) Increased sales when these titles eventually come to PC
MSFT's strategy can be profitable as well. I think they are planning to get out of the hw business and leave OEM licensed hw running the Xbox OS with a unified GDK. This can ensure they have the best version of games running on super expensive licensed hw. This is their strategy all the way from back in the 90s which was interrupted by the creation of Xbox when they realized there are software issues with developing for multiple configurations of hw. My issue is its increasingly likely that Phil hopes to bring down Sony's business model through a lawsuit as well because even under such an arrangement, Sony can still maintain its profitable software hw divisions while increasing sales on other platforms with timed releases(including on licensed PCs running multiple gaming stores such). As well Sony's hw will remain the best choice for casual gaming since they make one base hw configuration per generation that devs can target. MSFT is trying to make it work for multiple hw configurations while also planning a lawsuit to eliminate Sony's competitive advantages. The truth is most gamers want to spend $500 on a console and play conveniently without the hustle of updating drivers etc. They will continue buying the Playstation especially if its not forced to include other game stores even if MSFT exits the market. And soon we'll see a handheld Sony device as well, but all locked into their ecosystem.
I only have a Series X this gen and its impressive hw, gamepass is quite impressive as well, but I dont really know if I'll get one next gen. The first party output hasnt been great in terms of output, quality and variety. There are so many delays, the quality of releases has been subpar and the games lean heavily towards first person experiences(which are generally cheaper games to make at AAA level).
Indiana Jones as a first person game may be cheaper for them to make but its DOA for me as someone that played the 3rd person title on the OG Xbox. I wish the studio had worked on Wolfenstein 3 instead of an fps Indiana Jones. Starfield, as well hasnt been a generation defining game at all, despite it being marketed that way. It has some fans but I think its generally regarded as subpar. I have hope in titles like Fable, Gears 6 and Perfect Dark since they stick true their original format and could leverage the newer hardware. Hellblade 2 could as well be a hit. But there is a general lack of pursuit of great titles by Phil Spencer that has ruined this gen despite great hw with the Series X and a great platform like Gamepass. I will keep my gamepass subscription but if they raise the prices I will cancel it!
100% spot on!! If I may add, Sony's strategy is going to even make more sense when GTA 6 is released. That game is being designed around the 16GB of RAM in the base PS5 and Series X, its going to push so many PS5 pros(which will be easy for devs to use), but the same cant be expected for the Series S for example. Xbox really tried to eliminate the idea of a console with their unified GDK strategy for multiple hw configurations(different RAM, CPUs, GPUs) but its bitten them back with games looking just as good on both the Series X and PS5. You wonder why they spent so much money on a more powerful APU that costs more to make. Yet they had the right strategy with the Xbox 360(at least at the start)
Johnny Awesome
Veteran
That's not what happened. PS5 as lead platform did. You don't like the X games a lot more than reviewers, so I have to ignore that part of your argument.
It's VERY difficult to peel someone away from the PS ecosystem and although MS put out a lot of very good and varied content, most of it wasn't truly polished and excellent. I don't think the unified SDK has anything to do with it.
It's VERY difficult to peel someone away from the PS ecosystem and although MS put out a lot of very good and varied content, most of it wasn't truly polished and excellent. I don't think the unified SDK has anything to do with it.
unless of course there is another system out there that has more ram and plays the game much better.
Remember MS increased the ram in the one x over the one.
You dont have to take Sony's customers, just have to create good games that people love and those that take advantage of the hardware to deliver new experiences. This is what will push growth. It doesnt matter the platform or how many platforms MS tries to make if it doesnt address these issues it will continue to face challenges that Sony and Nintendo dont face.
Then you're back to MS's gaming business of the 90s. Multiple hw configs that cause issues. Thats why they're putting most of their effort in a unified GDK for multiple configs because they think they can now overcome this is create a seamless experience that scales on multiple configs but its not working out. Its improved PC gaming a lot but still Sony has the best platform for casual gaming experience for AAA titles and Series X hasn't been fully utilized. Maybe if MSFT produces one system as well next gen they can compete at this level, otherwise most people play on old PC gaming hardware if not new consoles. The high end PC gamers are very few less than 5%! Also one of the best things about console generations is a fixed set of RAM to design games around. Its not simply about having x more amount of RAM and games automatically look better. You could be able to load in higher quality textures but is it noticeably better? I have to admit I have seen some impressive GTA V 4K mods, I cant wait to see what PC gamers do with GTA 6.
This isn't the 90s anymore. The 90s ended 25 years ago
There shouldn't be any issue with a company supporting a game on 3 different ram specs. MS can go with the 10 gig series s , 16 gig x , 16 gig series s replacement and 24gig series x replacement.
Just like in the pc world there are pcs with 8 gigs system ram , 16, 32, 64 , 128 as well as 2gigs vram, 4 gigs vram, 6gigs vram ,8 gigs vram and so on and so forth. On the pc side you even have mechanical drives to sata ssd to multiple generations of nvme hardware all offering vastly different experiences.
even lower quality devs like the team behind bualders gate 3 has the game running on over 10 year old pc hardware
If a company comes out with a 24gig system it will obviously be able to handle higher resolution textures much more easily.
I also don't see why you are comparing hgh end pc gamers. A high end pc gamer is using a $1000 cpu and a $1500 gpu and thats just two components of a system. I have no doubt in my mind that MS can come out with a 24gig console in the $400-600 price bracket during 2025/2026
Lastly of course having more texture ram that is getting taken advantage of would lead to a much better looking game. Esp feeding off a fast nvme like the xbox has andxbox refresh or xbox next of course could have faster nvme drives built in. The more unique textures you can put on the screen while staying high quality the more realistic the environment will be.
Nintendo sales come from exclusives, right, but they have a mascot, a seal of quality, and many proven games, that both Sony and MS lack, plus they are family friendly, contrary to the other two, and many console gamer parents buy the Nintendo Switch for their children.
This means it's not the list of their exclusives alone, but how exclusive the Switch is compared to the other two.
fair enough. Still 20% of PS5 users purchased the game, which is not bad, but it seems that exclusives are only important for the same people that gave importance to exclusives. New generations seem to care less about that. You go to Neogaf though and the gifs of super angry people invading any thread about any game that could be released on other platforms is common ground.
which games are better than Elden Ring and Cyberpunk? Sony have very good exclusives, the question is which of them are masterpieces?
It depends on what the requirements are. MSFT stopped BG3 developers from releasing the Series S version in an as is form as it would have happened on PC, they wanted the Series S version to match all the requirements of the Series X version which led to issues. Because it would have hurt their console business. When people say an old PC can run X game its not always a seamless experience. So games dont automatically scale although they can run on multiple hw configurations there are still serious issues in the experience. Which is why you dont see Sony and Nintendo launching multiple hw configurations at the same time. This is the nuance missing in these discussions. MSFT aims to solve this by creating the holy grail unified GDK where you just develop on one platform and with minimal effort the game scales across multiple hw configurations but this has not worked out. Biggest issue I'd say is the minimum amount of RAM. Having games designed around the 16GB systems and then having another system with lower RAM for a console was a huge blunder. Maybe it would have worked out better if the Series S had 16GB of RAM as well. Memory is one thing that can easily bottleneck the whole hw stack. So no MSFT cant simply create multiple hw configurations in a gen with different amount of RAM especially. This is a major reason why Sony is most likely leaving 16GB of RAM in the PS5 but increasing the memory bandwidth. Not much extra work needed, just design a game around the PS5 then upscale it to a higher resolution on the PS5 pro.
I also think next gen MSFT wont make the mistake of releasing a system with a lower amount of RAM than what developers asked for. This gen it was 16GB or doubling of RAM. If they do that again they will have serious development issues like they have had this gen.
Basically all I'm saying is consoles have stricter requirements unlike PCs where anything goes really. You could have choppy gameplay on the minspec requirements on PC which is unacceptable on consoles.
*why Sony is most likely leaving 16GB of RAM in the PS5 pro but increasing the memory bandwidth.
Johnny Awesome
Veteran
God of War, SM2, FFVII Rebirth (a known Sony exclusive).
Once again Metacritic is the only thing we can really go by if we want to avoid our personal biases on this forum.
Example: For me, Gears Tactics is a masterpiece, but I would never list it as such in these discussions because I rate it a full point higher than critics do. It falls into one of the many 8.5s MS puts out that is considered a good game, but isn't good enough for most gamers to sway a platform decision.
That's the heart of MS' problem. Lots of good games, but not enough great ones. That and ecosystem lockdowns are their biggest issues.
Unified GDKs and the occasional problem with S having lower mem are distractions and side issues.
If I were advising Phil I would simply tell him: "Polish"
Hellblade 2 needs to be a 9. I'm betting they don't polish it enough and it ends up being yet another 8.5. I'll still enjoy it, but that's the thing they have control over and can't seem to grasp.
The issue is on Larians side or whatever the dev team is called.
This is what the game requires on pc
- OS: Windows 10 64-bit
- Processor: Intel i5-4690 / AMD FX 8350
- Memory: 8 GB RAM
- Graphics: Nvidia GTX 970 / AMD Radeon RX 480 (4GB+ of VRAM)
- DirectX: Version 11
- Storage: 150 GB available space
- SSD required4
Bulldozer came out in 2011. That was what 12 years before BG3 released. The geforce 900 series released in 2014 8 years prior to bg3 release. The rx 480 . haswell was a 9 years prior.
The devs could have actually spent time optimizing and got the co-op working fine. It works on the steam deck which is less powerful than the series s and it runs on machines that run full windows along with other programs while having only slightly more ram than a series s.
For MS there is the series s on the market already a long with a bunch of computers that have similar ram set ups. There are also computers that have access to more vram and system ram than 16 total gigs. For years there has been features to allow for increased quality textures as optional downloads. If developers are going to go through the trouble of creating textures for the pc that are higher resolution than the consoles then they can easily add them to a higehr ram console. If you look at ps4 pro and one x games the one x has much better texture work. So why wouldn't it happen again ? MS themselves are going to be releasing a slew of games a year. Why wouldn't they have their own big releases take advantage of the increase in ram ? Want to show off a difference between a 2024 ps5 pro and a 2025 xbox next / refresh ? Cod 2025 actually using that ram and making the game look better along with all of ABK , Bethesda, MS game studio games taking advantage of the additional ram.
