Xbox Business Update Podcast | Xbox Everywhere Direction Discussion

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

For me, it's because the Series S has effectively looked like a handheld in waiting since its launch, and if MS don't capitalise on that, they've hamstrung themselves this entire generation for no present or future benefit.

If they don't create a portable with access to all Series S games, this generation's two tier launch would have been better served by an RDNA2/Zen2 version of the X1X as the base model, and an 80CU beast for the higher end.

 

[eastmen]

We've seen how they can adjust the resolution and settings like AF without changing game code, so it would be interesting to see what they could do for a lower power device. Theoretically, you would need less bandwidth if you lowered the resolution. I'd also be curious to see if they revert back to having some embedded memory. If you know what your output resolution is like you would on a handheld, you could have a small pool of super fast memory for your framebuffer, which would allow you to have a larger pool of less performant memory.

I always though Halo Infinite looked fine. Maybe not as cutting edge as the first few games in the series, but very much like a high resolution open world Halo game. Which is what it was.

Most of the games are variable resolution anyway so if a game is 720p-900p on a series s then on the mobile one it can just hover at 720p instead.

Potentially, but that's very much hypothetical. We've yet to see anything from Microsoft where they run the exact same code on lesser hardware: the X360 games running on the XB1 required each game to be downloaded in a recompiled form which included its own emulator; the Series S runs XB1 versions, rather than XB1X.

I mean the xbox series x games run on the series s and it is the lesser hardware ? But why are you assuming the mobile console would be lesser ?

a rdna4 zen5/6 based handheld could in a lot of situations be faster than the series s

So I'd expect an XB Portable to have greater performance than the Series S if we're looking at native games utilising a newer architecture, but I'm yet to be convinced that fewer CU's at a lower clockspeed would run Series S games natively.

It would depend on the bump in ipc from rdna 2 to rdna 4 or I guess even 5 depending on when we look at things. Even when looking at zen . Almost every generation of zen you have gotten a 10-15% ipc improvement. So from zen 2-5 you could be looking at anywhere from 30-45% ipc improvements for the cpu clock for clock.

I agree if we're dealing with an affordable handheld, but I don't think trying to fight Nintendo directly and cheaply is wise.

10.667Gbps LPDDR6 on a 192 bit bus would provide 228GB/s bandwidth using 8 chips of memory. Make 6 of them 2GB and 2 of them 4GB and developers would have 16GB of memory at a full 228GB/s while the OS would have 4GB at 57GB/s.

That would:
- be ample to outperform the Switch 2 the entire generation
- sufficient to trade blows with the PS5
- keep life simple for developers because they don't have to worry about different pools of bandwidth
- come down in cost over time because LPDDR6 won't be expensive forever and 10.667Gbps is the cheapest one
- be desirable in spite of being more expensive than the Switch 2 if the device can dual boot into Windows

I really think it would be as sensible of a move as the PS4 going with 8GB of GDDR5. It was an expense, but it absolutely paid for itself.

Yea I think going to 16 gigs of ram would be smart of MS for a handheld.

Steady on now, let's not get greedy. You can't have your cake and eat it.



Going by what I've seen, it looked good, but not at the level it deserved to be. It looked really good for something running on infinite PC configurations and four Xbox consoles, but it could've looked a good deal better if only the Series S/X were the focus for launch.

Kind of like we saw with Horizon and God of War. Both were pretty, but they were hamstrung by having to run on the base PS4, and developer time had to be spent getting them running on 3 devices. Not to mention the slipping through crevice loading screens (-_-)


Have we seen any laptop RDNA3 APU's using Infinity Cache? I'm doubtful of EDRAM type embedded memory (and I'm doubtful that either embedded memory or IC could make lower than Series S bandwidth sufficient for Series S games) but I think some amount of IC could help a portable punch above its weight for native titles.

Well remember halo was supposed to be a 2020 release. It's very rare that Launch titles are representative of what the console generation brings. Add in covid and it was a big issue. Sony had a less rocky covid period because what they brought out were direct sequels from games made a few years prior. So the majority of the work had already been done.

Mobilizing the Series S wouldn't make much sense in my opinion. Future games will require much more modern hardware. Therefore, if MS plans a mobile Xbox, it will probably be a new architecture that includes an NPU for local AI.
And in terms of power consumption, modern architecture is also required.

Due to the small mobile screen, in terms of performance, it is enough to aim for a lower render resolution with some kind of image enhancement. Therefore, a 10 TFlops GPU can be suitable, which in mobile mode renders around 600p / 20 Watts, in docked mode it can come with a resolution of 1080p / 60 Watts.

I'm not really talking about making a mobile series s. I am talking more about making a handheld that can run series s games while also having newer hardware to run games into the future.

A zen5/6 + rdna 4/5 should be able to run games that release on xbox series and switch 2 . It may even be able to run games from next generation with so effects turned down.

 

[QPlayer]

Most of the games are variable resolution anyway so if a game is 720p-900p on a series s then on the mobile one it can just hover at 720p instead.


I mean the xbox series x games run on the series s and it is the lesser hardware ? But why are you assuming the mobile console would be lesser ?

a rdna4 zen5/6 based handheld could in a lot of situations be faster than the series s

It would depend on the bump in ipc from rdna 2 to rdna 4 or I guess even 5 depending on when we look at things. Even when looking at zen . Almost every generation of zen you have gotten a 10-15% ipc improvement. So from zen 2-5 you could be looking at anywhere from 30-45% ipc improvements for the cpu clock for clock.


Yea I think going to 16 gigs of ram would be smart of MS for a handheld.


Well remember halo was supposed to be a 2020 release. It's very rare that Launch titles are representative of what the console generation brings. Add in covid and it was a big issue. Sony had a less rocky covid period because what they brought out were direct sequels from games made a few years prior. So the majority of the work had already been done.


I'm not really talking about making a mobile series s. I am talking more about making a handheld that can run series s games while also having newer hardware to run games into the future.

A zen5/6 + rdna 4/5 should be able to run games that release on xbox series and switch 2 . It may even be able to run games from next generation with so effects turned down.

Do you think MS will release a new generation console that will initially only run games from the previous generation S Series? That's hardly useful, because why couldn't they just make a version of the game using the new hardware new features instead? It is more likely that the brand new features will be integrated into the games, and the new console will be released along with it. For example: buy the new Xbox, because it already runs the best version of the games, equipped with lifelike artificial intelligence, and here you will have the real immersive experience!

 

[Cyan]

Valve hates Windows and wants Steam OS to run on any PC, from desktop to rival handhelds.

Valve confirms it'll support the ROG Ally with its Steam Deck operating system

Dual boot is still on the menu, too.

www.theverge.com

 

[see colon]

Valve hates Windows and wants Steam OS to run on any PC, from desktop to rival handhelds.

Valve confirms it'll support the ROG Ally with its Steam Deck operating system

Dual boot is still on the menu, too.

www.theverge.com

They hate windows so much they offer a support page with windows drivers for Steam Deck.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Valve hates Windows and wants Steam OS to run on any PC, from desktop to rival handhelds.

Valve confirms it'll support the ROG Ally with its Steam Deck operating system

Dual boot is still on the menu, too.

www.theverge.com

I didn't realize they were planning a general version of SteamOS 3 that can be run on any pc. I'm hoping my next pc will have two nvme slots, and I'd happily dedicate one of those to a SteamOS install if it's available. They just really need the anti-cheat stuff to work.

 

[orangpelupa]

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1euhc6k/haak_developers_explain_why_the_game_is_skipping

Maybe related to Microsoft's business decision to remove the ability to contact a real Microsoft employee since a few years ago. Replacing them with "experts" that are more like volunteers. Like in Google product support forum, and they are as useless.

So edge cases issue goes in limbo. Assuming this issue was real.

Anyway, I was lucky years ago with Xbox and Microsoft account issues, before they removed the ability to contact a real ms employee. They fiddle something on their end, bam. Issue solved.

 

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

I mean the xbox series x games run on the series s and it is the lesser hardware ? But why are you assuming the mobile console would be lesser ?

a rdna4 zen5/6 based handheld could in a lot of situations be faster than the series s

WRT Series X games running on the Series S: come on man, that's not how it works and you know it. Were that the case, developers would create a Series X version, and the Series S would just run it at a lower resolution. But that's not the case, and we've seen developers have to wrangle with Series S versions.

In terms of "lesser hardware" I mean in terms of lower clockspeeds, lower core counts, fewer CU's, and lower bandwidth. It *may* be possible that such lesser hardware can still run Series S versions at lower resolution etc, but we've yet to see evidence of that in the console space. The Series S doesn't play Xbox 1 X versions of games at lower resolutions, it plays base Xbox 1 versions.

It simply remains to be seen, as we currently have insufficient information.

But I do agree that an Xbox portable, using newer versions of Zen+RDNA could outperform the Series S, even at lower core counts etc as long as they're built for it natively. It may be the case that it can run Series S versions at higher settings, but it remains to be seen.

It would depend on the bump in ipc from rdna 2 to rdna 4 or I guess even 5 depending on when we look at things. Even when looking at zen . Almost every generation of zen you have gotten a 10-15% ipc improvement. So from zen 2-5 you could be looking at anywhere from 30-45% ipc improvements for the cpu clock for clock.

For native games, I agree. For running Series S games, it's unknowable at present. Microsoft is best positioned of the big 3 due to their abstraction, but the limits aren't yet apparent.

Yea I think going to 16 gigs of ram would be smart of MS for a handheld.

Just so we're certain we're singing from the same hymn sheet, I'm proposing 20GB: 16 for devs, 4 for the OS. With IC, that would likely give it enough capacity and bandwidth to operate well into the next generation for the lion's share of games.

Well remember halo was supposed to be a 2020 release. It's very rare that Launch titles are representative of what the console generation brings. Add in covid and it was a big issue. Sony had a less rocky covid period because what they brought out were direct sequels from games made a few years prior. So the majority of the work had already been done.

I agree that launch games are rarely representative of the entire generation, and that COVID had an impact, but developing for the Xbox 1, Xbox 1 X, Xbox Series S, Xbox Series X, and Windows PC's with myriad hardware combinations had an impact too. Cut that down to only the Series S and X, and that's at least some portion of development resources freed up, a 2 orders of magnitude liberation from a ~20MB/s streaming limit, and reason for people to buy a Series console.

As for direct sequels from a few years prior: Halo 5 launched late 2015 and was made by the same studio on the same engine. And I don't think Sony had a less rocky period, I think Jim Ryan made a poor decision in the interest of short term thinking and quarterly profits.

 

[rntongo]

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1euhc6k/haak_developers_explain_why_the_game_is_skipping

Maybe related to Microsoft's business decision to remove the ability to contact a real Microsoft employee since a few years ago. Replacing them with "experts" that are more like volunteers. Like in Google product support forum, and they are as useless.

So edge cases issue goes in limbo. Assuming this issue was real.

Anyway, I was lucky years ago with Xbox and Microsoft account issues, before they removed the ability to contact a real ms employee. They fiddle something on their end, bam. Issue solved.

This is what happens when a company is going in multiple directions at once. They want two pieces of hw out at the same time without providing proper support to the developers yet try to make it easier for the devs in words but not in actions. Then they try to create a subscription gaming service full throttle while trying to release AAA titles that take advantage of multiple hw configs. At a certain point you end up with such bad dev experiences because they are going in multiple directions at once.

 

[Cappuccino]

This is what happens when a company is going in multiple directions at once. They want two pieces of hw out at the same time without providing proper support to the developers yet try to make it easier for the devs in words but not in actions. Then they try to create a subscription gaming service full throttle while trying to release AAA titles that take advantage of multiple hw configs. At a certain point you end up with such bad dev experiences because they are going in multiple directions at once.

I’m going to have to disagree here, this seems to have nothing to do with releasing two sets of hardware. The developers even say in the post the porting itself would have taken a few weeks, but the issue was MS Support basically doesn’t exist anymore.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Which is odd, because other games are launching on XB. Are there any other similar stories? TBF I have noticed a few multiplatform titles on everything except XBS which confounds me. If you are porting ot NSW, XBSS won't be a problem. You already have a PC build and a PS5 build. Is it really that much bother to produce an XB build? What's the limiting factor?

So maybe it's 'bureaucracy' holding back releases?

 

[rntongo]

I’m going to have to disagree here, this seems to have nothing to do with releasing two sets of hardware. The developers even say in the post the porting itself would have taken a few weeks, but the issue was MS Support basically doesn’t exist anymore.

Every year devs have been asking for more ram and every year MS has been trying to figure out ways of increasing the available virtual ram for the Series consoles because the physical ram in the Series S isnt enough(this has consistently been one of the most requested updates for the MS GDK). As well low level apis are not properly optimized for the Series X. This has been well documented and a reason for why devs focus on the PS5 more. My fundamental point is MS going in multiple directions at once is a key problem business and technical wise. I'm trying to give one of the reasons why MS developer support isnt as good anymore and you're reiterating the fact its not as good as it should be.

 

[Frenetic Pony]

I don't even get the idea of wasting so much HW on trying to play these games on mobile. It's not like mobile gamers truly care for quality due display and interface limits so Cloud should be good enough for 99% of their needs and you could even play longer due the low energy footprint.

But then gaming was never really rational anyway.

Cloud costs $$$, always did, always will. Some kind of "cloud" dream has been around for 40 years, we still run things locally. Just sell people something and let them run it, it's already where "AI" stuff is going and that's barely 2 as far as most new companies are concerned.

 

[orangpelupa]

Which is odd, because other games are launching on XB. Are there any other similar stories? TBF I have noticed a few multiplatform titles on everything except XBS which confounds me. If you are porting ot NSW, XBSS won't be a problem. You already have a PC build and a PS5 build. Is it really that much bother to produce an XB build? What's the limiting factor?

So maybe it's 'bureaucracy' holding back releases?

That, or the usual edge cases in Microsoft account issues that should take about 5 minutes to fix manually by a real Microsoft support agent. The problem, they can't reach a real Microsoft support agent probably.

How do people contact a real Microsoft support agent nowadays? The Xbox suport page chat has been replaced to chat with Xbox volunteer gamer thingy

 

[Nisaaru]

Cloud costs $$$, always did, always will. Some kind of "cloud" dream has been around for 40 years, we still run things locally. Just sell people something and let them run it, it's already where "AI" stuff is going and that's barely 2 as far as most new companies are concerned.

More than a custom costly design while MS has the global CPU/GPU Server infrastructure which might be idling a lot too?

IMHO mobile gaming is the perfect target for this.

 

[rntongo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1825602833527484691

I called this earlier on this year. I think this makes business sense in the medium term. Make the games available on other platforms after focusing on releasing a solid build on the Xbox Series consoles and PC, then release on PS5 some months later. Xbox isnt in a position to have exclusivity with how badly they handled this gen. Next gen they can then make longer timed exclusives with these IP once they figure out their hw platform.

 

[eastmen]

Do you think MS will release a new generation console that will initially only run games from the previous generation S Series? That's hardly useful, because why couldn't they just make a version of the game using the new hardware new features instead? It is more likely that the brand new features will be integrated into the games, and the new console will be released along with it. For example: buy the new Xbox, because it already runs the best version of the games, equipped with lifelike artificial intelligence, and here you will have the real immersive experience!

I think if we are talking about Ms making a new console they will likely go with a new zen and new rdna. I think both of those would be in a mobile xbox. There isn't really a way to make a mobile that will play a new xbox consoles games at the same resolution and feature set. It isn't possible. Even a handheld playing games at xbox series x or ps5 specs isn't possible in the next 2-3 years if not longer. Series S is however a very easy target in the next year or two.

The series s games are already targeting a zen2/rdna2 4tflop target. So if Ms puts out a zen5/6 + rdna 4/5 handheld those games should run very well on it. I don't think you are going to be able to get a bunch of developers to go back to older game and play around to find out what settings can be improved for a handheld device using those specs. I also think most gamers would be happy to start off just playing those games on the go.

I have a steam deck and I have used a few of the other handhelds like the ally. None of them can give me a series s level of gaming performance on the go.

 

[eastmen]

WRT Series X games running on the Series S: come on man, that's not how it works and you know it. Were that the case, developers would create a Series X version, and the Series S would just run it at a lower resolution. But that's not the case, and we've seen developers have to wrangle with Series S versions.

I mean that is how it works. IT's how it works on pc too. Do you think the person using a bulldozer and r580 is using a different version of the game than a person using zen 2 and rdna 2? and then yet more versions for intel cpus/ gpus/nvidia gpus ?

The developers like bg3 developers are just lazy. They literally have it working on a bulldozer and rx 480. With 8 gigs of ram and 4gigs of vram while running full windows. That is the real issue. Developers take the time to make games worth on the switch which is 2017 hardware. Companies are still putting games on on the xbox one/ps4 which is 2013 hardware.

In terms of "lesser hardware" I mean in terms of lower clockspeeds, lower core counts, fewer CU's, and lower bandwidth. It *may* be possible that such lesser hardware can still run Series S versions at lower resolution etc, but we've yet to see evidence of that in the console space. The Series S doesn't play Xbox 1 X versions of games at lower resolutions, it plays base Xbox 1 versions.

Sure, but we don't know why that is the case.

It simply remains to be seen, as we currently have insufficient information.

But I do agree that an Xbox portable, using newer versions of Zen+RDNA could outperform the Series S, even at lower core counts etc as long as they're built for it natively. It may be the case that it can run Series S versions at higher settings, but it remains to be seen.

We wil have to see what they do. It's also not out of the realm of possiblity that zen5 or zen 6 + a 20cu rdna 4/5 can run at the same clock speeds. 3.4/3.6 ghz on the cpu and 1.565 on the gpu

The rog ally 1 has a

ryzen z1 extreme 8/16 thread at up to 5.1ghz boost
12 rdna 3 cus at up to 2.7ghz

The rog ally 2 was announced so we will just have to see what is ultimately in it and how it would compare to a a hypothetical portable xbox series. Since the rog ally x is coming out this summer I expect the 2 to either be holiday or early next year and will likely have zen5

For native games, I agree. For running Series S games, it's unknowable at present. Microsoft is best positioned of the big 3 due to their abstraction, but the limits aren't yet apparent.



Just so we're certain we're singing from the same hymn sheet, I'm proposing 20GB: 16 for devs, 4 for the OS. With IC, that would likely give it enough capacity and bandwidth to operate well into the next generation for the lion's share of games.

Eh I dunno, I think moving to 16 gigs would be more than enough. It's gonig to be a portable so it likely wont target more than 900p so I am not sure that much ram is really needed. Unless MS also drops brand new consoles with bucket loads of cache. It sounds like the ps5 pro isn't going to use more than 16gigs of ram , the refresh x isn't getting more ram and I doubt a switch 2 will come with more than 16gigs of ram.

If the series m is the only console with 20gigs of ram I don't see it getting used at all until someone puts out a real next gen box and even then without a doubling of ram on the next boxes that are going to target 4k again I don't think a 900p machine would need that much.

I agree that launch games are rarely representative of the entire generation, and that COVID had an impact, but developing for the Xbox 1, Xbox 1 X, Xbox Series S, Xbox Series X, and Windows PC's with myriad hardware combinations had an impact too. Cut that down to only the Series S and X, and that's at least some portion of development resources freed up, a 2 orders of magnitude liberation from a ~20MB/s streaming limit, and reason for people to buy a Series console.

Well sure but you also have what 50-60m xbox one owners who would want to play that game which is a lot of possible sales and player engagement. So I can see why in 2020 they wanted it on all their systems . I think in 2021 it would have been smarter not to have it , but it was already promised for the other consoles. People flipped out when the split screen was taken away. Imagine the negative press if they said no xbox one version of the game ?

As for direct sequels from a few years prior: Halo 5 launched late 2015 and was made by the same studio on the same engine. And I don't think Sony had a less rocky period, I think Jim Ryan made a poor decision in the interest of short term thinking and quarterly profits.

I think Sony got hit with the same covid issue MS has. Its just that they had a bunch of direct sequels. Look at the big games from them on this generation. They all had direct sequels not long before the ps5.

Spider-man (18) - spiderman mm(20) - spider man 2(23)
Horizon zero dawn (17) - horizon forbidden west (22)
God of war (18) - Ragnarok (22)

What were the other major Sony titles for the ps 5 ?

It sounds like wolverine is delayed and its a new ip for them
It sounds like the last of us battle royal or whatever it was is also canceled

 

[QPlayer]

I think if we are talking about Ms making a new console they will likely go with a new zen and new rdna. I think both of those would be in a mobile xbox. There isn't really a way to make a mobile that will play a new xbox consoles games at the same resolution and feature set. It isn't possible. Even a handheld playing games at xbox series x or ps5 specs isn't possible in the next 2-3 years if not longer. Series S is however a very easy target in the next year or two.

The series s games are already targeting a zen2/rdna2 4tflop target. So if Ms puts out a zen5/6 + rdna 4/5 handheld those games should run very well on it. I don't think you are going to be able to get a bunch of developers to go back to older game and play around to find out what settings can be improved for a handheld device using those specs. I also think most gamers would be happy to start off just playing those games on the go.

I have a steam deck and I have used a few of the other handhelds like the ally. None of them can give me a series s level of gaming performance on the go.

Next year's Xbox Handheld will likely have a fast NPU in addition to the CPU for local AI, which raises two things. One is that the new console will have new popular AI features. Therefore, it is likely that the games will not simply be mobile versions of the Series S. The other is that the local AI needs a lot of memory, so it can even contain 32GB DDR6.

 

[eastmen]

Next year's Xbox Handheld will likely have a fast NPU in addition to the CPU for local AI, which raises two things. One is that the new console will have new popular AI features. Therefore, it is likely that the games will not simply be mobile versions of the Series S. The other is that the local AI needs a lot of memory, so it can even contain 32GB DDR6.

I would assume they would use zen+ xillian ai cores and not another discrete chip in a handheld