Xbox Business Update Podcast | Xbox Everywhere Direction Discussion

[arandomguy]

I think the cloud gaming statement are too broad.

My experience is fine with Geforce Now. Granted I guess this is going to depend on your comparison point and definition of fine. I also did "cloud gaming" that was self hosted to play at "work" for the longest time as well. In both cases for me I had 8ms and now 16ms (moved off fiber internet to coax) and it's still fine.

The client has consistently been a desktop PC, and so decoding latency is likely much lower than say using mobile devices (1ms vs. 10ms or even much higher).

Also in both cases the encoder stack on the server side was Nvidia which judging from the limited testing and information out there is likely the best software and hardware stack compared to other solutions.

I haven't tried other cloud gaming or remote options. But judging by information out there, such as Digital Foundry's experience with the PS portal, it could be that alternative solutions are significantly worse.

The other thing is I noticed my electricity bill dropped rather noticeably and I live in an area with very low rates ($0.10 a kWh) albeit I likely also play more than the typical person as well. I do wonder if in higher cost areas if a monthly cloud at some point might even be cheaper than just the electrical cost of local gaming.

Now personally long term I would not stick with GFN ultimate due to various other factors such as it not supporting every game (thank you Google Stadia for giving game companies the idea of double dipping), needing a GPU anyways for non gaming purposes, and modding/customizability limitations. In terms of the direct gaming experience it's still better locally if you assume 1:1 on the hardware (and the local CPU is going to be way better) but that's comparing against a GTX 4080 class GPU which is quite expensive to buy and operate. But's it's far from unplayable by comparison. And if we were to compare against a weaker system it might be a trade off issue.

 

[iroboto]

I think if you are a hardcore gamer, you’re just going to buy the hardware. This is normal behaviour. But if you’re not a hardcore gamer, the cost of entry is getting higher. Streaming makes gaming accessible, the hardcore market is willing to spend thousands on gear of course. But there was never a discussion about streaming being better than native, except when there are massive cost implications, which are coming sooner than expected with the tariffs

 

[arandomguy]

I know anecdotally I had a friend who didn't have a console or a gaming PC, only an existing dated laptop with a IGP, but wanted to try BGIII. I went over some options with him ranging from a console, Steamdeck, a new laptop low end, or a desktop low/mid/high, as well as GFN. He went with GFN for I think a couple of months got his fix and moved on.

 

[see colon]

I think if you are a hardcore gamer, you’re just going to buy the hardware.

That depends a lot on how you define "hardcore". There must be someone out there who plays 100s of hours a month streaming games, which I would define as hardcore. But, maybe they only play Vampire Survivors and Balatro. Is that hardcore?

 

[iroboto]

That depends a lot on how you define "hardcore". There must be someone out there who plays 100s of hours a month streaming games, which I would define as hardcore. But, maybe they only play Vampire Survivors and Balatro. Is that hardcore?

I mean. Yea I suppose there could be. The natural progression for most people is that as they get more into a hobby they justify more expenditure and try to customize the experience for themselves. Typically this involves a bigger and better screen, better graphics performance, better input devices etc.

Not all that different from purchasing sporting gear versus renting it. But I do see someone out there who is always on the go; and streaming is about the only way to get that experience everywhere.

I’m not expecting streaming to replace consoles unless they can match quality at graphical fidelity with a latency that is very close to native.

 

[eastmen]

The thing is, so long as MS want to have Gamepass as a significant revenue stream, if cloud is not up to the task they need to have a none PC gaming platform - even if that platform is even closer to PC than it currently is.

The thing is, if you get too close to being a PC then the user friendly experience suffers and technical issues like shader compilation stutter begin to make the experience less than premium.

From MS's perspective, Xbox hardware is something that there is currently no substitute for as long as they want to keep building Gamepass.

And as the worlds largest game publisher, for game sales, not paying 30% to Sony or Nintendo or Steam gives some room for Xbox hardware costs to be managed even if economies of scale for hardware favour Sony somewhat.

The problem is that MS isn't treating xbox hardware as if there is no substitute. Its treating it like it's Cinderella and MS is the evil stepmom who is giving everything to the evil step sisters.

MS's strength for a long time was having the most powerful consoles. Xbox 360 , xbox one x , xbox series x. Now they are content with a playstation 5 pro not only being the best console hardware for 3rd party games but the best hardware for many of xbox's once exclusive games .

IF MS goes oem then it wont even be priced competitively anymore since no oem will be willing to take a loss on the hardware. Which means shelling out for an xbox next could cost several hundred more than a similarly spec ps6. Even if MS gets a jump on Sony with a new console a year early Sony will simply gain access to a year newer hardware which it could also price lower and be more competitive than MS both price and power wise.


MS may be the biggest game publisher now but it isn't doing anything for their hardware platform. At the end of the day with game pass having more games then ever and more MS published games than ever xbox hardware continues to decline in sales.

I would love to see xbox succeed. I've always been a xbox fan but I just don't see it happening with the current strategy change. The previous strategy was to have a new xbox based on a 12 core zen 6 and new amd gpu with 24gig / 8 gig set up. Now it seems like it will be a much reduced console release for their new platform with more ai elements than it was previously going to have to get copilot synergy.


I personally have already decided to invest in a living room pc to replace my series x and MS just gave me a gift since it will go for more money on the used market with the price jump. I have a few friends in my group that have also decided to go pc . They are all going steam first because that is where everyone is and they all have games on the platform already.


I just don't see anything coming down the pipe from MS that will bring anyone back into the hardware. I don't even see anything that will really keep that many people in the hardware next gen.

Now of course anything is possible. MS could release an extremely powerful xbox with custom hardware that isn't availble on anything else making it the best place to play not just Microsoft games but 3rd party games however that seems really doubtful to me with the way they have regressed on the surface line up.

 

[eastmen]

I mean. Yea I suppose there could be. The natural progression for most people is that as they get more into a hobby they justify more expenditure and try to customize the experience for themselves. Typically this involves a bigger and better screen, better graphics performance, better input devices etc.

Not all that different from purchasing sporting gear versus renting it. But I do see someone out there who is always on the go; and streaming is about the only way to get that experience everywhere.

I’m not expecting streaming to replace consoles unless they can match quality at graphical fidelity with a latency that is very close to native.

would streaming even be the best option for getting an experience on the go ? I would imagine a steam deck which is $300 or even one of the windows handhelds would be a better option since a lot of places wont get great internet.

I tried xcloud earlier this year we visted friends in Virgina and flew down and xcloud was a no go on the plane's wifi. We then took amtrack vehicle train down to florida and xcloud was a no go on amtraks service and trying it on tmobile on the train we'd transition between towers too often and it would become a stuttering mess. I've also tried it commuting to nyc on nj transit and it was a no go.

Maybe 6g or 7g ?

 

[arandomguy]

There might be some differing definitions of on the go here. I'm on the go and want to game on the go, but it's to fixed places with capable internet connections. I'm not on the go in the sense I want to game while actually travelling.

I’m not expecting streaming to replace consoles unless they can match quality at graphical fidelity with a latency that is very close to native.

I don't think this idea that streaming is at odds with consoles or PC gaming is really the right way to look at it. Just personally I've used self hosted streaming for quite some time now and it's not to replace an actual PC for me. It just enabled me to game with more options.

The other thing to look at is mobile gaming. Mobile gaming grew to such an extent it's bigger than console/PC gaming in terms of revenue. Yet if we look at the Nintendo Switch as a console that it would actual be in the most direct competition with it was actually the most successful console of it's generation. And despite everything we're seeing an emerging market with PC handhelds and now even talk about Sony and MS re-entering handhelds.

 

[rntongo]

The problem is that MS isn't treating xbox hardware as if there is no substitute. Its treating it like it's Cinderella and MS is the evil stepmom who is giving everything to the evil step sisters.

MS's strength for a long time was having the most powerful consoles. Xbox 360 , xbox one x , xbox series x. Now they are content with a playstation 5 pro not only being the best console hardware for 3rd party games but the best hardware for many of xbox's once exclusive games .

IF MS goes oem then it wont even be priced competitively anymore since no oem will be willing to take a loss on the hardware. Which means shelling out for an xbox next could cost several hundred more than a similarly spec ps6. Even if MS gets a jump on Sony with a new console a year early Sony will simply gain access to a year newer hardware which it could also price lower and be more competitive than MS both price and power wise.


MS may be the biggest game publisher now but it isn't doing anything for their hardware platform. At the end of the day with game pass having more games then ever and more MS published games than ever xbox hardware continues to decline in sales.

I would love to see xbox succeed. I've always been a xbox fan but I just don't see it happening with the current strategy change. The previous strategy was to have a new xbox based on a 12 core zen 6 and new amd gpu with 24gig / 8 gig set up. Now it seems like it will be a much reduced console release for their new platform with more ai elements than it was previously going to have to get copilot synergy.


I personally have already decided to invest in a living room pc to replace my series x and MS just gave me a gift since it will go for more money on the used market with the price jump. I have a few friends in my group that have also decided to go pc . They are all going steam first because that is where everyone is and they all have games on the platform already.


I just don't see anything coming down the pipe from MS that will bring anyone back into the hardware. I don't even see anything that will really keep that many people in the hardware next gen.

Now of course anything is possible. MS could release an extremely powerful xbox with custom hardware that isn't availble on anything else making it the best place to play not just Microsoft games but 3rd party games however that seems really doubtful to me with the way they have regressed on the surface line up.

Yeah I share the same view, but I'm keeping my Series X the whole gen, dont think I'll ever sell it. MS Gaming now depends on third party revenue so having Xbox games on Playstation making money is going to be one of the KPIs moving forward i.e they are going to make sure Playstation hw and the Playstation Store is a first class citizen. So next gen I see a lot of people moving to the PS6 as well while MS makes money hand over fist as a third party publisher.

 

[rntongo]

would streaming even be the best option for getting an experience on the go ? I would imagine a steam deck which is $300 or even one of the windows handhelds would be a better option since a lot of places wont get great internet.

I tried xcloud earlier this year we visted friends in Virgina and flew down and xcloud was a no go on the plane's wifi. We then took amtrack vehicle train down to florida and xcloud was a no go on amtraks service and trying it on tmobile on the train we'd transition between towers too often and it would become a stuttering mess. I've also tried it commuting to nyc on nj transit and it was a no go.

Maybe 6g or 7g ?

If you have a PC running steam + a Steam Deck then you're good since you can stream to the Steam Deck while on the go.

 

[iroboto]

I know anecdotally I had a friend who didn't have a console or a gaming PC, only an existing dated laptop with a IGP, but wanted to try BGIII. I went over some options with him ranging from a console, Steamdeck, a new laptop low end, or a desktop low/mid/high, as well as GFN. He went with GFN for I think a couple of months got his fix and moved on.

Yea my brother is in this camp as well. They are space limited, so GFN is his go to. Though he stays with it as he is a heavy user of the platform. The kids have the consoles, but GFN fidelity is higher and the slight latency he is willing to deal with.

 

[function]

MS's strength for a long time was having the most powerful consoles. Xbox 360 , xbox one x , xbox series x. Now they are content with a playstation 5 pro not only being the best console hardware for 3rd party games but the best hardware for many of xbox's once exclusive games .

Yeah, MS have positioned themselves poorly. Trouble is by going with two systems at the start (S & X) they left no room for a Pro type machine. And despite the X being very powerful (and showing it now too in many games) MS did absolutely nothing at all to create killer apps that would push it because they wanted every game to drive Gamepass, which meant supporting Xbox One and a wide variety of PCs.

IF MS goes oem then it wont even be priced competitively anymore since no oem will be willing to take a loss on the hardware. Which means shelling out for an xbox next could cost several hundred more than a similarly spec ps6. Even if MS gets a jump on Sony with a new console a year early Sony will simply gain access to a year newer hardware which it could also price lower and be more competitive than MS both price and power wise.

I think OEM only would be a mistake, as like you say it would likely drive up costs. MS could sell the chip to manufacturers at a discount, mirroring the old style of console production, to help with costs but a number of vendors in a shrinking market would still suffer from economies of scale compared to one large vendor.

Third party Xboxes might make sense to add variety to a product range though, even if they used the same chip. They could use storage size, form factor, and potentially even adjustments like better cooling and PSU and limited (and pointless) clock boosts like PC GPUs.

What I think would be the worst of all worlds though is simply and Xbox branded PC. Fuck me that's depressing.

MS may be the biggest game publisher now but it isn't doing anything for their hardware platform. At the end of the day with game pass having more games then ever and more MS published games than ever xbox hardware continues to decline in sales.

I'd argue that the only thing MS are doing for Xbox hardware is pushing Gamepass. Other than this, their software strategy is doing absolutely nothing for Xbox. Which is in equal parts baffling and weirdly funny.

Then again, for a long time parts of MS's software strategy was doing nothing for their software. Killing Lionhead, realising they need games like Fable, creating a new studio to make Fable, losing years in development and having no Fable. Also, absolutely everything to do with the way they've handled Halo - like a drunk that keeps slipping in their own vomit while stuck in a timeloop.

Anyway, I think MS is limiting their losses for this gen.

Now of course anything is possible. MS could release an extremely powerful xbox with custom hardware that isn't availble on anything else making it the best place to play not just Microsoft games but 3rd party games however that seems really doubtful to me with the way they have regressed on the surface line up.

I agree - MS need an Xbox that provides a premium gaming experience. They also need to make sure that they have games that can show that it is a premium device, which is where they failed so spectacularly early on this generation and did so by design. They need this not just for game sales but for Gamepass - just because you're using Gamepass doesn't mean you don't want spectacular games.

They also need to have a cheaper device too, because the barrier for entry to Gamepass should be as low as possible. They also need a handheld. They also need to have that wifi low latency gamepad for streaming.

Will they do any of this? I don't know - quarterly earning reports and decision making that is not customer focused might mean 'no'. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[iroboto]

would streaming even be the best option for getting an experience on the go ? I would imagine a steam deck which is $300 or even one of the windows handhelds would be a better option since a lot of places wont get great internet.

I tried xcloud earlier this year we visted friends in Virgina and flew down and xcloud was a no go on the plane's wifi. We then took amtrack vehicle train down to florida and xcloud was a no go on amtraks service and trying it on tmobile on the train we'd transition between towers too often and it would become a stuttering mess. I've also tried it commuting to nyc on nj transit and it was a no go.

Maybe 6g or 7g ?

On to the Go is a pretty vague definition. For me on the go means landing at a hotel, sitting around in a car park etc, an area where you are not at your home setup for the best experience, but you're stable enough to pull out a controller and sit down and play quietly. Plane is never really going to fly here, it's just got way too much latency because we don't have any actual technology to speed that up.

If you're actually trying to play while in motion/transit, a mobile handheld is what you need because streaming is going to be heavily interrupted each time you pass through towers. It's doable, but it will take some time to get there, the infrastructure has to be designed to support it. 6G isn't necessary, for that, but MS would definitely have to move their servers to edge to support that level of moving/streaming.

The issue I have with handhelds, and I think most people feel similar, if you're used to big screen gaming due to immersion or what have you, it's really painful to go back to a small screen. Any screen that has an HDMI port can support an amazon fire stick, a bluetooth controller and you're technically good to go.

Series S quality was always going to hurt, but we're enthusiasts here, we were never the target market for this. They can reduce latency further with a wifi controller, but outside of that, and moving their servers to the edge, I'm not sure how much more they can reduce the latency.

 

[see colon]

Yeah, MS have positioned themselves poorly. Trouble is by going with two systems at the start (S & X) they left no room for a Pro type machine. And despite the X being very powerful (and showing it now too in many games) MS did absolutely nothing at all to create killer apps that would push it because they wanted every game to drive Gamepass, which meant supporting Xbox One and a wide variety of PCs.

I would only disagree with this because Hellblade 2 and Indiana Jones are 2 of the best looking games of this generation and both showcase the Series X well.

 

[iroboto]

Yeah, MS have positioned themselves poorly. Trouble is by going with two systems at the start (S & X) they left no room for a Pro type machine. And despite the X being very powerful (and showing it now too in many games) MS did absolutely nothing at all to create killer apps that would push it because they wanted every game to drive Gamepass, which meant supporting Xbox One and a wide variety of PCs.

I think the most important aspect that hasn't been hit until lately, was that games just didn't look next generation. The population of PS5Pro users is super tiny, and at its price point, I don't see that population growing much more than it has.

Xbox is doing a great job of showcasing good looking titles on their consoles, whether they have the most powerful console, which used to matter, doesn't really seem to matter as much. Not because we aren't counting pixels and stuff etc as we were before, but a vast majority of titles were cross generation. People didn't see the 'power' or need to upgrade to next gen. But I think as of late, those titles are now being show cased and bringing out titles that truly look next gen is more important than the discussion around pixels and upscaling techniques.

The power discussion will have its place sometime, but we were so late to market for these titles, that people are finally seeing the value of their original purchase 5 years ago.

 

[QPlayer]

Some people over-mystify the need for a powerful traditional console in business view. Yes, for us hardcore gamers it would be nice if they released a Series XXX now, which would not provide lukewarm PSpro performance..., but a real leap in graphics. But that would certainly cost a lot today. Look, everyone is raising hardware prices now, market costs are forcing it. If you want a powerful XXX series today, it would cost at least $1000. Even in the most popular ecosystem, only hardcore would buy this, for how much? Maybe 3-5% of the potential user base. Even the PS5pro is barely bought for $700... The masses need cheaper hardware. The days when you can get a generational leap for $ 500 are gone, as of today, it costs at least double.

MS knows all this, so it has chosen the path of taking a significant part of the burden off its shoulders and handing over the hardware to OEMs. What is certain is that there will be more price/performance categories in the Xbox-PC segment and it is also likely that a console-like UI/OS will be released for general PCs. The most important key to all of this will be Game Pass. This will easily allow the Xbox experience to be brought to a wider audience who just want to pay for games. In a world of increased game prices, this will be essential. The hardcore layer can buy more expensive Xbox-PC models, depending on how much performance they want. Next Xboxes coming, but not in a traditional form. We will soon get an answer on how to achieve this.