Xbox 2 set to feature removable hard drive?

[Kesler]

"Microsoft's next-generation Xbox console is set to feature a removable hard drive bay, according to online reports today, which will allow users to upgrade their entry-level systems to include mass storage capabilities.

Citing a "reliable source", technology news site Engadget revealed details of the removable hard drive, claiming that the unit attaches to the top of the console "in a really slick way, almost like the hood scoop on a muscle car."

The report tallies with claims from developers working on the system, who have told GamesIndustry.biz in the past that Microsoft has disclosed that there will be a mass storage device, but that they should not rely on its presence for their games.

It's been assumed for some time that this means that Xbox 2 will be sold in at least two basic configurations - with and without a mass storage unit - and today's report seems to indicate that it will be possible to upgrade between those models by adding the hard drive.

One vital question, however, is whether this hard drive will simply be a sealed memory unit (which may actually be a hard drive, or may be a very high capacity flash drive) or if it will sport a screen and buttons, allowing it to be used as a portable media player.

Comments made to GamesIndustry.biz by sources who claim to have seen the new console suggest that the latter may be the case - resurrecting the "xPod" rumours which originally surfaced last year, after XNA boss J Allard allegedly told fellow snowboarders in a bar at a Canadian resort that the next Xbox would come with an iPod style media player.

Engadget also reports, from the same source, that the new console is set to be called "Xbox 360" when it hits the market; at present, the only official moniker attached to the project is "Xenon", its development codename.

Microsoft has reported tested a number of names on consumer focus groups, and is believed to be determined not to launch as "Xbox 2" - just as rival Sony is apparently keen to drop the numbering system from its next PlayStation console.

"Xbox 360", "Xbox Next" and "NeXtBox" have all been suggested as names that the company is considering in the past few months - and if those sound too convoluted to be real, it's worth bearing in mind that according to UK tech news site The Inquirer, the current frontrunner for the name of the next Windows operating system is Windows e-XPedition."


From http://gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=6980

 

[Pugger]

If its a portable unit able to play MP3 etc, its a great idea. However if its a HD it would have to be a mini version and how much are they for say 20GB? Still it sounds like a great idea.

 

[Farid]

Will the Legendary Red Bull/Tequila cocktail named “Hey Zeusesâ€￾ by Jay Allard be proven to be a reality?
To know the terrible, unbearable truth stay tuned until the next episode.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

I personally don't think we'll see a "detachable hard drive" device that can be used as an Ipod.

However, I could see the X-Box + Hard drive used as the point of storage for MP3s, and you can interface it with portable MP3 players, (made by MS) or even perhaps any 3rd party MP3 player that cares to create the software to interface with the X box...including iPod itself.

Basically...use the XBox as a replacement for the PC when it comes to everything related to music acquisition / storage.

 

[AzBat]

I've already discussed some of my ideas on the iPod possibility in the "Could multiple Xenon SKUs work?" thread.

I personally don't think we'll see a "detachable hard drive" device that can be used as an Ipod.

However, I could see the X-Box + Hard drive used as the point of storage for MP3s, and you can interface it with portable MP3 players, (made by MS) or even perhaps any 3rd party MP3 player that cares to create the software to interface with the X box...including iPod itself.

Basically...use the XBox as a replacement for the PC when it comes to everything related to music acquisition / storage.

Joe, I'm going to have to disagree with you here. What's the point of hard drive that has no other purpose other than storage? IT DOESN'T SELL. Sony tried it, it didn't work. What you're talking about is just a glorified memory card. Why not just go with standard memory storage like SD cards? But, why allow other companies to make all the profit by supporting standard memory storage? If Microsoft is going through the trouble of making their own add-on, then most likely it's for profit. So, it needs more value than just a portable mass storage device. So why not make it an iPod device? It would sell like hotcakes.

Anyway, I agree the whole point of the hard drive is most likely to store music. It keeps Microsoft from having to subsidizing the cost of supporting soundtracks by including an expensive hard drive with every console.

Tommy McClain

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Joe, I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

Blashpemy!

What's the point of hard drive that has no other purpose other than storage? IT DOESN'T SELL.

Sure...it hasn't sold yet. Then again on-line console gaming didn't really sell at one time...nor did "multifunction" consoles (games AND dvd playback)....

Doesn't mean that with the right pitch and right incentive, it won't.

Sony tried it, it didn't work. What you're talking about is just a glorified memory card. Why not just go with standard memory storage like SD cards?

I also mentioned in the other thread that the mass stoarge device could also provide...beyond glorified memory card capabilities:

1) Backwards compatibility for X-Box 1. Without the hard drive, no backwards compatibility.

2) DVR functionality.

If number 2 is in the works...you're going to need a lot more capacity than you could afford in small form factor ipod-like drive.

So why not make it an iPod device? It would sell like hotcakes.

Why would anyone buy an x-box iPod device, vs other iPod devices like the iPod itself?

Does everyone carry around their entire music library on their current iPods...or just a portion of it?

 

[pc999]

I see those kind of storage (portable) as a good thing to creat a online comunity in things like mods and maps created by users, but you can acess by any pc it would be a powerfull tool

Like this patent:
http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/7455/Another-Xbox-2-Patent/

A thing like this(e.g. big/whort their money games) could really make a person buy X2 instead of another console.

 

[Inane_Dork]

This rumor comes from Engadget, who brought us the "Xbox 360" rumor. This rumor is far more likely, as far as I am concerned. As long as they change the thing from slipping the whole device in there to plugging in, I'd say it's rather probable at this point.

 

[cthellis42]

On the point of the "not sellability" of Hard Drives with the consoles, it's in part because no one has developed them yet to do what many people want--to mount games (for faster loading, operating, and not having to bother with disk-changing)--since it's dangerous to the development community but desirable to the consumer. (I do think they could come up with a process that could satisfy them and be hard to get around normally, which would please them and not irritate consumers. You're obviously not going to stop the real desirous pirates anyway.) In the PS2's case, it's also because the OTHER real desirable use for it--direct save game storage--isn't supported either; as well, the forced bundling with FFXI kept it more expensive and less desirable, which kept games using the features lower, which... you know the pattern. What else do they want a 40GB drive for? Storing tens of thousands of MP3's?

While the Xbox is not really a ringing endorsement either even with its built-in drive, neither is the PC. Patches are commonplace, but content adds are still shruggable; major content is saved for expansion packs and the like. Console-dom does not seem to be looking in that direction, so hard drives in general are...? I'm not precisely sure.

Hard drives really need to be picked up and given good purpose, rather than a shruggable one, before it matters much in general. If THAT changes, however, I think that expansion drives would sell well, whether they are "dedicated" or not. If a mod community could be built up as well? If periodic content upgrades gained more purchase among developers and publishers? If games could be mounted--at least for a time--for performance enhancements and user convenience...? If all saved games could be easily stored/accessed/manipulated on them? I'd certainly pay a regular expansion device's cost (which I typically define as "a game's worth at the high end") for it, and think it could become as standard as the other kinds of "necessary purchases" (like memory cards) we run across now--which all have only one purpose. It just needs to fit other criteria as well. (Most especially the "affordable" one.)

While an iPod-like expansion device would be interesting in its own right, it would also necessitate it being a lot more expensive, which would indeed throw it into the "shruggable" category. Else it would be something not GOOD for its other portable purposes (say, being too large and bulky) or would become another thing that Microsoft would treat like a money-sink to get their hardware out there. And that is A) something I thought they said they were trying to avoid, and B) something that will piss off most other manufacturer's support they have for Microsoft's DRM and their online music purchasing schemes, as it will undercut those already involved in trying to compete with the iTunes/iPod juggernaut--and what would THAT force them to do, and who to support...?

What I think would be most likely is that if they're supporting a removable HD like that, they would bypass going for cutting-edge small hard drives in a quest for more portability, or the added expense of adding more versatility (media player functions) and instead concentrate on it being a cheap, dependable USB2 HD (which you could use with your PC as well, of course) that is stylish and appealing, and make it as desirable for Xbox 2 owners as possible--else they run the risk of it being just as inconsequential to their Xbox plans (and the Xbox/PC convergence plans they have) as the HD's been for the PS2.

Another possibility would be to run their usual plan--going the software route and working with many parties--of making THEIR media players compatible for Xbox 2 use as well. They couldn't design the case specifically for anything but a HD they themselves produce, but they could easy license out the ability for their Media Player allies to include the ability to be used as an Xbox HD with all/most of the same capabilities, and use that as a leg-up against the iPod.

THAT, I think, would be their best plan. Have their own expansion HD (in whatever form) for quick and cheap functionality, and use their leverage and appeal with 3rd parties to expand the functionality of THEIR devices, and in doing so add a lot more potential Xbox 2 HD owners to the fold. (Especially if they could bring it about with a firmware upgrade to existing devices, too.) And ultimately I think a press for a portable/hot-swappable drive is overrated. I don't think it should actually conflict with the inclusion of a HD bay in the machine for PC hard drives we know and love. They are what adds the size, price, and volume to give even more functionality later on, should it be desired.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'd imagine it much more sensible to add support for third party devices and allow people to still buy their beloved iPods and yet use it as a XB2 extra.

 

[AlNom]

On the point of the "not sellability" of Hard Drives with the consoles, it's in part because no one has developed them yet to do what many people want--to mount games (for faster loading, operating, and not having to bother with disk-changing.)

yeah... for sure. I'm thinking of modding my xbox just so I don't see that texture popping in Halo 2. Load times would be oh so awesome too!

 

[Acert93]

Why would anyone buy an x-box iPod device, vs other iPod devices like the iPod itself?

Because it is would appeal to a new market (TV/Console vs. PC/Mac) and would open up some neat possibilities. I know a lot of people who would love to sit in front of their TV, on a soft couch, sampling music and then downloading it.

I think convergence is an over used word and a lot of hype (ambitious goals that often are out of the realm of current user appeal) BUT music is a very generic, popular, and commonplace activity. MP3 players and digital music are not just tech geek toys but have gone mainstream. A console could really capitolize by offering a service that allowed their customers to sit in their living room and play games, watch movies, and yes even download music. And it would save games to boot. Ironically this type of device was rumored recently... whether it is true or not we do not know. But it does open up a lot of possibilities.

Anyhow, as you can see there are a lot of benefits of a "X-box iPod" that allows the storage of games, music, file storage, etc... and is used by a console in the living room compared to the iPod which is limited mainly to music and must be used with a PC/Mac which are typically not used on a TV.

As for storing music, well, I would assume the PC and X2 would allow some type of basic networking so you could store stuff on the PC also.

Now someone shoot me because I must be going crazy because I actually think this type of convergance (theres that lame "C" word again ) is practical and worth while to consumers. I obviously did not get enough sleep...

 

[AzBat]

Joe, I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

Blashpemy!

LOL

What's the point of hard drive that has no other purpose other than storage? IT DOESN'T SELL.

Sure...it hasn't sold yet. Then again on-line console gaming didn't really sell at one time...nor did "multifunction" consoles (games AND dvd playback)....

Doesn't mean that with the right pitch and right incentive, it won't.

Are you talking about a internal version similar to Sony's or a portable drive like an iPod or those external USB drives? If the former, I can't see any incentives or pitch that would make them attractive.

Sony tried it, it didn't work. What you're talking about is just a glorified memory card. Why not just go with standard memory storage like SD cards?

I also mentioned in the other thread that the mass stoarge device could also provide...beyond glorified memory card capabilities:

1) Backwards compatibility for X-Box 1. Without the hard drive, no backwards compatibility.

2) DVR functionality.

If number 2 is in the works...you're going to need a lot more capacity than you could afford in small form factor ipod-like drive.

I seriously doubt #2 especially considering Microsoft's stance on Windows Media Center being that device instead. Now, I could see improved WMC Extender functionality. They can do that with streaming over a network, but I agree a hard drive could definitely help.

As for #1, I could see them offering backward compatibility without a hard drive add-on. The stuff M-Systems has available could allow Microsoft to include just enough internal mass storage for backward compatibility. The Xbox has three 750MB partitions used for caching and a 500MB system partition used for booting to the Dashboard. That's a total of 2750MB just for the system. The rest of the 8GB drive is for user saves and music. I'm not sure if all three partitions are necessary. If developers only use one of them, then all they need is 1250MB. If they don't use any of them, then they would only 500MB.

So why not make it an iPod device? It would sell like hotcakes.

Why would anyone buy an x-box iPod device, vs other iPod devices like the iPod itself?

Does everyone carry around their entire music library on their current iPods...or just a portion of it?

I suspect since regular iPods include a minimum of 20GB that most if not all of their collection is on the drive. Plus, 20GB is enough for 20 hours of TV recording too. I'm not saying a 20GB drive would be the entry size for ~$100, but I could see MS offering larger capacity models for more money. Provided they're going to offer PVR functionality in addition to music.

Personally I'm not sure how well it will sell compared to an iPod or similar device. However, Apple and the other manufacturers must be making a killing. Especially compared to the measly change they're making off every Portable Media Center device sold. MS must be looking at that as something they would love to get into. IMHO, it has potential to make a lot of money for MS.

BTW, my personal music collection is completely on the Xbox. I don't have any of it on a PC, nor would I. I listen to my music in the living room, not at a PC. Anyway, it currently only takes up about 1.25GB. I think a 2GB model would be a great entry size.

Tommy McClain

 

[AzBat]

I see those kind of storage (portable) as a good thing to creat a online comunity in things like mods and maps created by users, but you can acess by any pc it would be a powerfull tool

Like this patent:
http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/7455/Another-Xbox-2-Patent/

A thing like this(e.g. big/whort their money games) could really make a person buy X2 instead of another console.

That patent was originally filed by RARE back in the 90's for the N64. Microsoft re-submitted it last year to update it with them as the owners instead of RARE.

Tommy McClain

 

[AzBat]

Another selling point for a hard drive add-on that hasn't directly been mentioned is online purchases of full games(not just additional content). Microsoft has already tried the business model with Xbox Live Arcade. And yes, Infinium Labs are touting it as the delivery platform of the future. However, I'm not totally sure large games are a worthwhile target with current broadband connections in the U.S. Though, I can see it happening in the future. During the Xbox 2 lifespan? Maybe at the very end of it, but it's more likely with Xbox 3(if there is one).

IMHO, that's basically the only game-type feature that might attract people to purchasing a hard drive add-on. Though, I don't think you want to do an exclusive FF type bundle. Include some free demos, ala Xbox Live Arcade. Then let them purchase it online if they so choose.

Tommy McClain

 

[3dcgi]

On the point of the "not sellability" of Hard Drives with the consoles, it's in part because no one has developed them yet to do what many people want--to mount games (for faster loading, operating, and not having to bother with disk-changing.)

In case some of you are not aware of this there is some software, called HD Loader, that allows most PS2 games to be installed and played from a hard drive. It works very well. Unfortunately it isn't sold anymore, but HD Advance looks like the same thing.
http://www.hdadvance.com/index.htm

 

[archie4oz]

I think he meant by the platform vendor itself... Still it would be a false statement, as several Japanese games support installation to the HDD for faster access times (Hell FFX did it way back in mid 2001).

BTW, my personal music collection is completely on the Xbox. I don't have any of it on a PC, nor would I. I listen to my music in the living room, not at a PC. Anyway, it currently only takes up about 1.25GB. I think a 2GB model would be a great entry size.

That's a pretty small collection... And I listen to most of my musc either in my car or at my desk at work...

In the PS2's case, it's also because the OTHER real desirable use for it--direct save game storage--isn't supported either;

This is also false... (although the feature is rarely used, there are games that allow direct saving to the HDD (obviously only in Japan again))

isn't supported either; as well, the forced bundling with FFXI kept it more expensive and less desirable, which kept games using the features lower,

It's not the bundling of FFXI that causes/caused that, it's SCEA and SCEE attitude towards supporting (or lack there of) the HDD in their respective regions that are the larger reasons...

What else do they want a 40GB drive for? Storing tens of thousands of MP3's?

Sure... For custom soundtracks (like Xbox), storing all those GT4 photos, time-shifting video (would need a firewire set-top box however), expansions...

 

[BigGamer X]

On the point of the "not sellability" of Hard Drives with the consoles, it's in part because no one has developed them yet to do what many people want--to mount games (for faster loading, operating, and not having to bother with disk-changing)--since it's dangerous to the development community but desirable to the consumer. (I do think they could come up with a process that could satisfy them and be hard to get around normally, which would please them and not irritate consumers. You're obviously not going to stop the real desirous pirates anyway.) In the PS2's case, it's also because the OTHER real desirable use for it--direct save game storage--isn't supported either; as well, the forced bundling with FFXI kept it more expensive and less desirable, which kept games using the features lower, which... you know the pattern. What else do they want a 40GB drive for? Storing tens of thousands of MP3's?

While the Xbox is not really a ringing endorsement either even with its built-in drive, neither is the PC. Patches are commonplace, but content adds are still shruggable; major content is saved for expansion packs and the like. Console-dom does not seem to be looking in that direction, so hard drives in general are...? I'm not precisely sure.

Hard drives really need to be picked up and given good purpose, rather than a shruggable one, before it matters much in general. If THAT changes, however, I think that expansion drives would sell well, whether they are "dedicated" or not. If a mod community could be built up as well? If periodic content upgrades gained more purchase among developers and publishers? If games could be mounted--at least for a time--for performance enhancements and user convenience...? If all saved games could be easily stored/accessed/manipulated on them? I'd certainly pay a regular expansion device's cost (which I typically define as "a game's worth at the high end") for it, and think it could become as standard as the other kinds of "necessary purchases" (like memory cards) we run across now--which all have only one purpose. It just needs to fit other criteria as well. (Most especially the "affordable" one.)

While an iPod-like expansion device would be interesting in its own right, it would also necessitate it being a lot more expensive, which would indeed throw it into the "shruggable" category. Else it would be something not GOOD for its other portable purposes (say, being too large and bulky) or would become another thing that Microsoft would treat like a money-sink to get their hardware out there. And that is A) something I thought they said they were trying to avoid, and B) something that will piss off most other manufacturer's support they have for Microsoft's DRM and their online music purchasing schemes, as it will undercut those already involved in trying to compete with the iTunes/iPod juggernaut--and what would THAT force them to do, and who to support...?

What I think would be most likely is that if they're supporting a removable HD like that, they would bypass going for cutting-edge small hard drives in a quest for more portability, or the added expense of adding more versatility (media player functions) and instead concentrate on it being a cheap, dependable USB2 HD (which you could use with your PC as well, of course) that is stylish and appealing, and make it as desirable for Xbox 2 owners as possible--else they run the risk of it being just as inconsequential to their Xbox plans (and the Xbox/PC convergence plans they have) as the HD's been for the PS2.

Another possibility would be to run their usual plan--going the software route and working with many parties--of making THEIR media players compatible for Xbox 2 use as well. They couldn't design the case specifically for anything but a HD they themselves produce, but they could easy license out the ability for their Media Player allies to include the ability to be used as an Xbox HD with all/most of the same capabilities, and use that as a leg-up against the iPod.

THAT, I think, would be their best plan. Have their own expansion HD (in whatever form) for quick and cheap functionality, and use their leverage and appeal with 3rd parties to expand the functionality of THEIR devices, and in doing so add a lot more potential Xbox 2 HD owners to the fold. (Especially if they could bring it about with a firmware upgrade to existing devices, too.) And ultimately I think a press for a portable/hot-swappable drive is overrated. I don't think it should actually conflict with the inclusion of a HD bay in the machine for PC hard drives we know and love. They are what adds the size, price, and volume to give even more functionality later on, should it be desired.

Good points. My number one want for a HDD is to preload game info on there for faster loading times. In XBOX'S case, backward compat. and XBOX LIVE downloads are the other reasons. If the HDD did nothing but add *optional* (not needed to play online, just extra maps) stuff for online games, music, and DVR, I wouldn't be very hyped about it. I want it moreso for loading times and BC than anything else, LIVE would just be nice to have.

 

[cthellis42]

I think he meant by the platform vendor itself... Still it would be a false statement, as several Japanese games support installation to the HDD for faster access times (Hell FFX did it way back in mid 2001).

In case some of you are not aware of this there is some software, called HD Loader, that allows most PS2 games to be installed and played from a hard drive. It works very well. Unfortunately it isn't sold anymore, but HD Advance looks like the same thing.

I did, yes. I also didn't know there were any games outside the likes of FFXI that could actually be mounted. It's certainly not an advertising point of the HDD, nor do I know how one would or if it's ever mentioned in their instruction material, so... That's the same thing as "not doing it" really. For all intents and purposes, it makes no blip on the consumer radar.

The likes of HD Loader is an example of my latter statement--that the more hardcore pirates will find a way no matter what is done--so there's no reason to really design towards them. They could create a method that would be useful in the conventional sense, but not allow unlimited use the way HD Loader does. HD Loader and its kind will exist no matter what.

BTW, my personal music collection is completely on the Xbox. I don't have any of it on a PC, nor would I. I listen to my music in the living room, not at a PC. Anyway, it currently only takes up about 1.25GB. I think a 2GB model would be a great entry size.

That's a pretty small collection... And I listen to most of my musc either in my car or at my desk at work...

Small and silly to take pride in. You couldn't possibly see yourself listening to music as--say--you post on message boards?

Regardless, this particular consideration will disappear pretty soon. As everything gets networked, the important thing is to be able to see and access other devices (your PC--the most likely media repository/server source) and play them across the network in and easy and competent fashion. If you're connecting to go online, then...

In the PS2's case, it's also because the OTHER real desirable use for it--direct save game storage--isn't supported either;

This is also false... (although the feature is rarely used, there are games that allow direct saving to the HDD (obviously only in Japan again))

Question then: HOW? Or is this just another "no blip" situation from the consumer standpoint? I'm not saying it CAN'T be done, I'm saying they DON'T do it. If a HDD can't be hooked up and automatically function with the whole (or at least vast majority) game library as a saving device, it might as well not bother. I know it can work as a backup device, but that is not convenient enough (nor does it offer speed benefits).

It's not the bundling of FFXI that causes/caused that, it's SCEA and SCEE attitude towards supporting (or lack there of) the HDD in their respective regions that are the larger reasons...

That is there too, of course. But the auto-bundling hurts adoption, and adoption hurts their desire to support all the features they could. It's ALL a part of support, as if they wanted to support the HDD as full-featured enhancement, they needed to make it most readily available (as a rock-bottom-priced solo device), add features for it in ALL their games, give out coding to all their 3rd parties to easily add in those features... But pricing is what first and foremost keeps the HDD from being readily adopted, and the installed base for the device is what developers will point to to decide if it's worth supporting or not.

What else do they want a 40GB drive for? Storing tens of thousands of MP3's?

Sure... For custom soundtracks (like Xbox), storing all those GT4 photos, time-shifting video (would need a firewire set-top box however), expansions...

I don't really think people want or care to use their consoles as a total media storage device, which is what 40GB+ is asking for. Most people have problems filling out even a 20GB iPod without including a ton of songs they don't really care about--they just have so much frickin' space. Storing pics is not too much better, unless we're talking enormous uncompressed ones (which themselves still won't be too huge, considering the comparatively small TV resolutions one would normally display on.)

Perhaps if video recording and other DVR-like functionality were included that would make for a worthy enhancement and use of the space, but that's part of my initial point: HD's would sell fine by themselves, provided they have enough reason TO be sold. But that's what they have more or less lacked to date.