Xbox 2 coming in Nov-Dec 2005 - Revolution could be stronger

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Megadrive1988 said:
SNES was the most powerful console of its gen, not including add ons for other systems.

NeoGeo was 2-5 times more powerful than SNES. in colors, sprites, effects, CPU speed. etc. NeoGeo even came out before the Super Famicom in Japan and SNES in the U.S.


the n64 with a good microcode was capable of about 1.2 million polys per second, but with the crappy one the system launched with it could only do about 200,000)

you can't possibly mean with textures, gourad shading, AA, filtering, mip-mapping or other features switched on. that has to be flat shaded or raw vertices/sec. because with everything turned on, N64 could only manage about 160,000 polygons/sec. otherwise, you are blowing N64 capabilities upto Model 3 levels with your comment on 1.2 million polys/sec. :LOL:

Just going by nintendo's propaganda...though the way they talked about it, I'm not sure if they meant the microcode was new code for the n64, or new hardware based on the n64 that also used new code.(an arcade machine)

Also, neogeo was more powerful, however, at least judging by all the neogeo arcade games I've seen, it doesn't have the sprite scaling effects of the snes. The metal slug series is very nice looking, but it just seems lacking to have a completely 2d game, basically like an extremely souped up genesis. Ok, neogeo actually is powerful enough that I could say it's power overcomes the snes's graphical effects, but the neogeo games still seem to be lacking something to be so plain...(amazing they still make games for that system though even over a decade later, and they probably are the best looking 2d games available)
 
NeoGeo has hardware sprite scaling. most of the fighting games on NeoGeo have it. Metal Slug never used much if any scaling. SNES has hardware background scaling, but not true sprite scaling. NeoGeo's scaling is better than SNES's.

however, NeoGeo lacks hardware rotation, whereas the SNES has it, even if it's limited like SNES's scaling.

the SegaCD beats both NeoGeo and SNES in terms of scaling & rotation.
 
Neo Geo was not a console. It was a home arcade console. I was always amazed at the price of the games, each one costing more than a console.

Xbox is clearly more powerful than GC, but it cost more to the manufacturer. All manufacturers should be given a price tag for the console, and we would see which will come with the best console. Otherwise, it is just empty discussions.
 
Megadrive1988 said:
however, NeoGeo lacks hardware rotation, whereas the SNES has it, even if it's limited like SNES's scaling.

Umm dude, Neogeo most definitely has hardware background rotation (I've seen games use it). I even think it might be able to rotate two background layers, or maybe scale one and scale/rotate another. SNES can only scale/rotate one layer.

Not sure if it can rotate sprites, though like you said, it can scale them.
 
All manufacturers should be given a price tag for the console, and we would see which will come with the best console. Otherwise, it is just empty discussions.

I agree, NeoGeo costs what? 3 times as much as the SNES. Nintendo could've had the same technology if they wanted to sell the SNES for $500.

Anyone know why nintendo went for edram over just video ram like on a video card for gamecube? Isn't edram really expensive? Couldn't they have gottten more video ram at around the same speed if they went with external ddr, and if not, even the 6.4GB xbox had would have been more than enough for gamecube, something with voodoo5 level raw power doesn't need geforce 4 level bandwidth.

They wanted low latency RAM and a UMA for GCN. eDRAM isn't that expensive. It only gets expensive when the die area is large. The whole Flipper die isn't very big considering it integrated everything less the cpu. Nintendo wanted to break even quickly that's why they had 24MB instead of 48MB. Even with only 24MB it could still compete favorably with Xbox as seen in games like RE4.
 
Fox5:

Fox5 said:
N64 was the most powerful console of its gen, it doesn't matter if psx could push more polys(which I'm not quite sure is true) you couldn't see most of them anyhow because the screen was extremely pixelated and low res.(I can't stand to play most low res n64 games too, mario 64 being one of the few exceptions) I hated playing psx on svideo, pixel popping and disappearing polygons all over the place.

Wait a minute: So N64 is more powerful because....? because the "more polygons" PSX pushed were mostly not seen because the screen was extremely pixelated and low res? I would be also quite interested to find out how you quantify "most powerful", because given the strengths and weaknesses of each console over each generation, I know I certainly can't.

Fox5 said:
Gamecube would have been the most powerful without xbox...and it did launch in Japan before xbox launched anywhere, so it was the most powerful for a little while. Though in my opinion, nintendo crippled the gamecube by not giving it more video ram. If gamecube had say 16MB video ram, 24MB system ram, and that was it, I'd say it'd compare a lot better to xbox.

Again, how do you quantify which console is "more powerful"? By the amount of memory, clock, amount of hardwired effects, polygons or your opinion?

Fox5 said:
DS will be the most powerful handheld period if it comes out before psp, and it may even be more powerful than the best pdas at the time.

Doesn't matter much, as we talking about the strengths of a console within its generation, and not within days or weeks before another console/handheld launches. In the timeframe DS is launching, it certainly is not the most powerful system - it doesn't even come close (PSP is scheduled to launch just after DS).
 
I think, at time it is clear to see what platform can be considered "more powerful". Sometimes it's just too messy to have a clear idea. Example. We can safely say that NeoGeo was more powerful than SNES. We can say that PSP is more powerful than DS. But can we actually say with 100% certainty that SNES was more powerful than Genesis? Or that Xbox is more powerful than GC? Many people would say that, but the line is blurred. A lot.
All this talk about power makes me hungry though.
 
Most powerful console = console with best looking games, and most technically impressive achievements.

Ex:
Quake 3 engine is more powerful than Quake 2's.

The sum of what the parts produce is what matters.
However, do we only look at the very best examples, or the averages from both?
In the case of the snes, I think if we take the average or the best, snes wins.
In the case of n64, if we take the best I think n64 wins, if we take the average psx wins.
In the case of xbox and gamecube, if we take the average xbox wins......if we take the best, it's debatable.(and what matters more? artistic design has to be ignored, but what about high polygon counts and framerates versus tons of pixel shader effects? Personally, I prefer the look of ut2004 to halo, but ut2004 has many times the polygons, texture quality, and frames per second, metroid prime versus halo...actually probably has about everything the same as ut2003, except without much better texture quality.(and guess what, I prefer the look of metroid prime to halo) However, in other cases there may not be such a difference...hmm, hard to find xbox and gamecube games that are in the same style where one system doesn't win considerably.(say grabbed by the ghoulies versus wind waker)

Also, ps2 versus dreamcast, if we take the average dreamcast may win, but ps2 easily wins if we just take the highs.
 
"Average" is very misleading. If a console has 1000 titles, of which only 100 are GREAT, that's 10%. Another console with 200 titles, 50 of which are great, that's already 25%, althugh the total number of great games is smaller than the first one. And there IS a lot of shovelware on Ps2, let's not forget...
 
Comment: Microsoft's rush to next-gen could see the Xbox take a tumble

Rob Fahey 23:46 17/06/2004
With the next generation of Xbox due to arrive in 2005, Microsoft is taking a huge gamble on the power of first-mover advantage - but the company's faith in the importance of being first to market may well backfire catastrophically, argues Rob Fahey.


There's been no shock announcement, no official confirmation and no stunning leak that made the headlines - but over the past few weeks, the industry as a whole seems to have accepted that Microsoft is planning to try and bring the current console generation to a close prematurely, with the launch of a next-generation console in the USA by the end of 2005.

There are a number of reasons for Microsoft's decision to bring about a swift end to the current-generation Xbox - which will have been on the market for under four years when its new younger sibling appears to usurp its position. The company's continuing losses on Xbox hardware sales and resultant bleeding of investment in the current generation is something it would obviously like to stem as soon as possible; after all, while Nintendo and Sony are reaping huge profits from this generation, it's easy to see why Microsoft, bleeding cash with every Xbox sold, would be champing at the bit in its eagerness to move on.

More important, though, is the company's desperation to enter the next-generation race with "first mover advantage" - establishing a strong beach head before its competitors can launch their own fifth generation (counting from the NES) machines. Despite its claims to be delighted with the performance of the Xbox, the fact is that many within Microsoft have been bitterly disappointed with the console's market share. Prior to launch, there was a genuine belief that they would deliver a system which would be neck and neck with Sony in the global marketplace; managing to come neck and neck with Nintendo instead, while both companies are being trounced by Sony's PS2, is an achievement in its own right but not what Microsoft had hoped for by any means.

The belief within Microsoft's top Xbox executives, according to company insiders, is that the main reason that Xbox has failed to seriously challenge the PlayStation 2 is because Sony had first mover advantage - a gap of a year in which to build up its installed base and convince consumers and industry alike that it was the key platform of the next generation. Hence the urgency around launching Xbox 2 well ahead of its competitors; if, as seems increasingly likely, PlayStation 3 doesn't arrive until late 2006 or even early 2007, Microsoft believes that it will have won a huge competitive advantage by being to market as much as two years earlier. This, the conventional wisdom says, is how Microsoft will crush Sony.

It's a plan that makes sense on the surface, but probe a little deeper and you encounter serious flaws in the logic - and hints of the old Microsoft arrogance which the company has tried desperately hard to hide since the early days of the Xbox. The single biggest problem is that developing for Xbox 2 is going to be a major leap for game creators - and Microsoft is effectively asking them to make that leap while the current generation is still profitable, and the biggest contender in the next generation is still years away.

To be entirely fair, Microsoft sees this problem, and that's why XNA exists - but no game programming framework is ever going to get around the fundamental problem, which is that creating games for next-generation systems is going to require tools, technologies and resources which simply don't exist yet, and which will be hugely expensive and time-consuming when they do arrive. Studios which focus on cross-platform titles, as many of the largest publishers in the world do, face a gigantic problem - while developing a title on PS2, Xbox and GameCube is an easy prospect as code, art and audio can be effectively reused on all three platforms, adding a next-generation platform to the mix will require complete re-development.

In other words, studios are being asked to invest in next-generation R&D two years before it's required for PS3, and to spend more money developing an Xbox 2 version of a cross platform title - for an audience of a few million people - than they'll spend developing all three current-generation versions of the game - for an audience of well over a hundred million. Faced with this prospect, huge companies like EA may be able to throw money at the problem, and some small independent developers may be able to make a go of it by switching entirely to Xbox 2 development; but the simple fact is that nobody is going to stop supporting PS2 for Xbox 2, and the cost of supporting both may be prohibitive for a great many publishers and developers.

Microsoft may be making a colossal mistake by trying to force the industry into a next-generation cycle before it is ready to move. Sony, with its enormous dominance of the market, could probably just about get away with it - if it moved, the industry would have to move with it, however much it hated the idea. But Microsoft, still a relatively small player in the games industry, just doesn't look like a company that has the influence needed to force a shift like this. It may be backed up by the biggest software company in the world, but publishers will still look at the bottom line - in this case, installed base and cost of development - and base their decisions on that alone. Herein lies the arrogance; Microsoft isn't used to making decisions as an industry small-fry, and it's trying to act like an industry leader in an industry it simply doesn't lead.

It would also do well to remember that in fact, PlayStation 2 didn't have first mover advantage in the last generation; that dubious honour fell to Sega's Dreamcast, which launched well ahead of its Sony competitor and was completely crushed by a combination of consumer anticipation for the Sony console, and publishers being perfectly happy to stick with PlayStation 1 and wait for its successor. Two years later, Sega was out of the console business for good; and while that seems unlikely to happen to Microsoft, a defeat on that scale in the next generation would be a crushing blow to its ambitions in the console space.

gamesindustry.biz
 
I think the best looking psx games look better then the best looking n64 games. But i hate n64s crappy iq, low res textures and choppy framerate.

Dino crises, metalgear solid, ridgeracer type 4, bandicoot 2, vagrant story, omega boost looks better than the best of n64 imo.

Not to mention all of the 2d and 2,5d prerenderd stuff like chronocross.
 
I think N64/PSX is an easy comparison. N64 had less games, but the good games were like AAA+ titles. PSX had more games, but also A LOT of crap.
 
thop said:
I think N64/PSX is an easy comparison. N64 had less games, but the good games were like AAA+ titles. PSX had more games, but also A LOT of crap.

COUGH
"Average" is very misleading. If a console has 1000 titles, of which only 100 are GREAT, that's 10%. Another console with 200 titles, 50 of which are great, that's already 25%, althugh the total number of great games is smaller than the first one. And there IS a lot of shovelware on Ps2, let's not forget...
COUGH
 
I never understood why the % of shovelware/badgames mattered. I dont buy games that i dont like, and i definatly dont randomly choose games at the store. What matter is how many games consoleX has that attracts me.
 
Fox5:

Fox5 said:
Most powerful console = console with best looking games, and most technically impressive achievements.

What if the developers fail to tap the console's potential? Does that make the console any less powerful than it rightfully is? On the other hand, why would the developers fail to tap the full potential - because they suck, bottlenecks of the console itself, lacking effort, learning-curve or R&D shortages?

Fox5 said:
Quake 3 engine is more powerful than Quake 2's.

Obviously. Comparing a sequel isn't too difficult, especially when the engine it uses is more or less an improvement. How about comparing two games that aren't necessarely from the same developer, targeted at exact same specs but emphasising on different strengths of the hardware?
 
schmuck said:
I think the best looking psx games look better then the best looking n64 games. But i hate n64s crappy iq, low res textures and choppy framerate.

Dino crises, metalgear solid, ridgeracer type 4, bandicoot 2, vagrant story, omega boost looks better than the best of n64 imo.

Not to mention all of the 2d and 2,5d prerenderd stuff like chronocross.

I feel totally the opposite. The PSX features horribly pixelated textures that tore, weren't perspective corrected, clipping was awful...most games just looked like mosaics, even the best...I remember playing a bit of MGS and being shocked, after all the hype I thought it would look awesome, it looked laughably bad. The only thing the PSX had going for it (in true 3d) were sharper looking graphics, and sometimes smoother framerates.

Now I agree with you with the 2d/2.5d stuff, very nice, I loved Chronocross, very beautiful.
 
I think, at time it is clear to see what platform can be considered "more powerful". Sometimes it's just too messy to have a clear idea. Example. We can safely say that NeoGeo was more powerful than SNES. We can say that PSP is more powerful than DS. But can we actually say with 100% certainty that SNES was more powerful than Genesis? Or that Xbox is more powerful than GC? Many people would say that, but the line is blurred. A lot.
All this talk about power makes me hungry though.

london-boy, agreed 8)
 
I think the best looking psx games look better then the best looking n64 games. But i hate n64s crappy iq, low res textures and choppy framerate.

IAWTP!!!

When some games in a system gphx surpass high-profile next-gen titles in the same genre in some scenarios, you know you've got something strong right there.(rpgs, battle, scenario= psx boss close-up vs main character close-up, applies to skies of arcadia, and too some of the lesser known quality ps2 rpgs. Dunno if it's the fact that I connect with regular a/v on a normal tv, or what... but at least in that particular scenario aliasing and texture artifact/rez anomalies are virtually non-visually perceptible, in a few sections of some psx titles. I'm talking good texture detail, individually animated fingers, etc/ )

Why do you think I was slightly dissapointed with the detail of the summons in ffx and others?
 
Conker and its 64MB cartridge is a testament of the superiority of the N64 and how everything was killed by its storage medium.
 
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