Worldwide PS3 numbers pass 360

Yeah, it was predicted by analysts that the PS3 would overtake the 360 sometime in 2011 and I heard this years back. Its not shocking at all, unless you live and only care about what happens in the USA where the XBOX has a sizable foothold.

Really though, who gives a shit, I am glad there is competition and not a one horse race. Gives me tons of choices as a consumer... like not being gouged $60/year to play on a ad-infested p2p matchmaking network with a "point" system. :LOL:
 
I'm sure the purpose of that study was not to make distinctions between usage patterns. Most likely "active" means either capable of operation or sees atleast limited operation.
That's precisely the problem! You've ascribed a meaning based on your own personal take. It could mean active as in functions. Could mean active as in sees use at least once a month. Could mean active as in has one or more games played on it every week. Could mean it was switched on some time in the last year. Coule mean it's taken out whenever guests come over.

Without actually knowing, anyone can pick an interpretation and start arguing a position, where the given data doesn't actually support that position.

I don't think your questions undermines the data that is given to us. Answers to those questions certainly would help to get a clearer image of the situation, but their conclusions make sense to me anyway.
Because you've accepted an interpretation from your own gut rather than explicitly described. Now it could be that the active meaning is number of consoles that were switched on in the past week, and it turns out that the XB360 use was longer and involved more software and genreates more revenue and was experienced by more people because it is seeing Kinect party action. It could be that where someone might look at this report and assume a game released on PS3 will see a little more action than on 360, reality is the game would generate more revenue on 360 because it sees a greater amount of use. Anyone wanting to know how much use the systems are getting, like a dev wanting to see which platform is offering the best opportunities for selling their game to, can't glean that info from these forty-something million figures for each platform. All this information tells us is in one comparison, which we don't know what exactly was being compared, PS3 slightly outdid XB360. The only real take-home point is that it's all pretty much of a rub, neither platform is dominant, and cross-platform is the way to go if you want maximum market share!
 
That's precisely the problem! You've ascribed a meaning based on your own personal take. It could mean active as in functions. Could mean active as in sees use at least once a month. Could mean active as in has one or more games played on it every week. Could mean it was switched on some time in the last year. Coule mean it's taken out whenever guests come over.

Without actually knowing, anyone can pick an interpretation and start arguing a position, where the given data doesn't actually support that position.

Because you've accepted an interpretation from your own gut rather than explicitly described.

While it's true that I have used my own gut lol, but it's mostly because I trust that the analyst company has done a half decent job on defining what counts as active and that there is not a reason to believe that they use different set of rules for each platform.

Basically what I'm saying is that in this context it doesn't matter what sort of metric they use for active as long as it's the same for both machines. The usage patterns and their meaning is another thing, albeit very important thing.

My quess is that active in this context either means capable of operation or the unit needs to have some minimum amount of usage to qualify. I sent a question to the author, let's see if he replies.
 
While it's true that I have used my own gut lol, but it's mostly because I trust that the analyst company has done a half decent job on defining what counts as active and that there is not a reason to believe that they use different set of rules for each platform.
I don't dispute that. They could have effectively determined what percent of consoles have been turned on in the past month. They could also have effectively determined what percent of consoles were used for playing games in the last week. They could even have effectively determined what percent of consoles are still in working order since purchase. Those investigations would give pretty different insights.

Basically what I'm saying is that in this context it doesn't matter what sort of metric they use for active as long as it's the same for both machines.
As a metric, all it tells us in PS3>360. It doesn't say in what way. I can tell you that AlexV scored 4.35 and Vysez scored 4.15 in Forum Presence. All that tells you is AlexV scored more than Vysez, but not what in doing. Is that number of posts, or value of posts, or forum-member ranking of their contributions, or what? Some people would assume from the qualifier 'Forum Presence' that it meant amount of posts, while others would interpret it as a 'significance of posts' rating. nVidia scored a business rating of 94.28 and IMGTEC scored 99.45. Does that mean IMGTEC is growing more? Has a larger install base? Has a larger number of customers? Is rated more favourably by its customers? etc. Some people would assume from the name 'business rating' that it meant growth, while others would assume a PR rating.

Honestly, numbers without useful definitions can't even be used to make the most basic comparisons. This is how statistics get misused in PR campaigns, and values end up misleading people into believing in different situations.
 
I don't dispute that. They could have effectively determined what percent of consoles have been turned on in the past month. They could also have effectively determined what percent of consoles were used for playing games in the last week. They could even have effectively determined what percent of consoles are still in working order since purchase. Those investigations would give pretty different insights.

Considering that the percentages from the figures they gave out are about 85-90% of shipped figures, it's fair to say that if the metric is not "in working order", it has to be pretty close to that, for example "have used during the last 12 months"

As a metric, all it tells us in PS3>360. It doesn't say in what way.

Well it's just a relatively simple metric that gives some information. Installed base also is a simple metric, that also doesn't specify usage patterns etc. Basically the metric is about how many % of units are still in action, what that action is however is another ball game.

BTW your forum presence has to be pretty close to 5.0, atleast in the console section :) However I'm slightly worried about Patsu, he had epic forum presence number, but is dropping :cry: and here I was all calculating when your post counts/epeens should meet :smile:
 
I actually got an email from the author Jia Wu. It said:

"the minimum qualification to be an active installed unit is it’s in working condition and it is used at least once a year."

Additionally they have a "propietary equation that calcutates scrappage rates or retirement rates each year".

It's not mentioned in the email, but I don't think they use surveys to determine the usage. They expect units to retire from use or break at some point, the rest are considered active in their numbers imo. they believe this method represents the reality in an accurate fashion... Well the numbers seem reasonable to me, but based on many estimates.
 
Yeah, it was predicted by analysts that the PS3 would overtake the 360 sometime in 2011 and I heard this years back. Its not shocking at all, unless you live and only care about what happens in the USA where the XBOX has a sizable foothold.

Really though, who gives a shit, I am glad there is competition and not assumption of truth?one horse race. Gives me tons of choices as a consumer... like not being gouged $60/year to play on a ad-infested p2p matchmaking network with a "point" system. :LOL:


so even though we can all agree that this "Claim" as represented in the thread title, is inconclusive, the title continues to stay on the board as "fact" and elicit this kind of random assumption of truth as represented by this quote above? :?:
 
Still is a one horse race. The other two companies lost admirably though and can take some things away from this generation into the next one.
 
Yeah the title needs some work. Maybe something like this?

"PlayStation 3 active install base now exceeds that of the Xbox 360, according to a new independent report"
 
I actually got an email from the author Jia Wu. It said:

"the minimum qualification to be an active installed unit is it’s in working condition and it is used at least once a year."
Fabulous, an explanation. I wonder now if you'll revise your positon on the worth of the figures? Knowing that it covers one use a year, it's hypothically possible that the 360's who are switched on are done so every day, and the PS3's switched on are once a year, so despite having a slightly smaller active userbase, the 360's are the far more active boxes with the healithier market. Or vice versa. Or various shades of use in between. Now not knowing how much use these consoles get, how can we actually apply this information in decision making or the like?

The only derivative info I can see is either slightly more 360s break and aren't replaced, or slightly more 360's are abandoned, although I'd say one use a year is as good as inactive.
 
My Xbox last got switched on to play Halo Reach and before that it was Gears 2. I guess the next time it will get used is for Gears 3. Whereas my PS3 is on nearly 24/7 being used for Lovefilm, Qriocity, iPlayer etc, Films, and the odd game!

I think the Wii gets slightly more usage as the kids really love Mario Kart...
 
Fabulous, an explanation. I wonder now if you'll revise your positon on the worth of the figures?

If you read my posts again, you should notice that my position was never about the "worth of the figures" atleast not in the sense you seem to think.

At first my position was simply to say what is being measured since there was clearly misunderstandings going on. I don't like misunderstandings... I had to post twice about it before it got any traction. Then I mentioned that their conclusion makes sense to me considering some things that we know, like average age of the console and some other things.

I think I've said three or four times already that this was never about exact usage patterns/actual usage or anything like that. Basically what active usage base is in this context is, a potential that actual usage can/could built upon or something like that. My point was never to extrapolate any other meaning from this report. Actual usage would require further study, although I don't know if it's touched upon in that report.


Actual usage

Active user installed base (Imo this is more meaningful than installed base, but still not hugely meaningful alone)

Installed base

I see it as two different multipliers. Actual usage per average system * Active user base. What is the actual usage per system? Not my point. I don't know, interesting though.
 
While it's true that I have used my own gut lol, but it's mostly because I trust that the analyst company has done a half decent job on defining what counts as active and that there is not a reason to believe that they use different set of rules for each platform.

See, that's your first problem right there: you trust something to be given in the equation, and then you base your entire argument on that.
But that's circular logic, because the only reason I can see to trust some research metric to be true, is if you know how the data was accumulated and if there are no errors in it. And we don't have that here.
But you believe a research firm statment because you trust them, and you trust them because they seem like a decent research firm. But what makes you think that in the first place? What do you base your trust on?
"the minimum qualification to be an active installed unit is it’s in working condition and it is used at least once a year."

Additionally they have a "propietary equation that calcutates scrappage rates or retirement rates each year".

So it's not that complex. If I were to guess, I woud say that basically what we have here is something in the realm of this formula:
[percentage or people who claimed they used their console in the last year]
*
( Sum of
[the number of consoles sold to customer in a specific year]
*
1 - [number of years passed since that specific year] * [our "proprietary secret formula" to calculate how many consoles are depreciated each year]
)

Or something like that :)
p * Σ(y*(1-r*s))

So you see the second problem here? There are so many things with this estimation that can go wrong:

1) They must have a sample of people that they interviewed. I don't see how else they could work out how many people used their console in the past year at least once (unless they can tap into people's brain). So they're effectively relying on people being honest in the interview and actually remember when they last used their console.

2) For the statistic to be relevant, they also need to make sure that the sample of people that they interviewed properly reflects the general population of console owners (which is unknown). I.E: they need to have the right representation of the population based on age, gender, race, location, etc.
This is a fact that holds true to most statistical estimations and polls, but it's even harder to get it right for the global population of console owners because it (probably) differs from the distribution of the general population.

3) For any kind of calculation, they need to put in the formula the number of consoles actually sold through to customers each year. But this is again something that they don't know because we never have these numbers - only shipped numbers that the manufacturers send to retail. So they either track statistics with the likes of the NPD and chart-track (but this doesn't cover the whole word), or use another estimation like percentage of console out of the shipped numbers. Either way, we are throwing another kind of uncertainty into the equation.

4) They use some "proprietary equation" which is the jargon for saying ". They need to base their yearly depreciation rate on something, right? But how do they collect that? That is something that is even harder to sample from user queries, and they claim that they don't do that.
They use some kind of formula to find how many consoles were scrapped, and they probably employ a more complex formula then just applying linear deprecation (but who knows). But that still adds to the formula a very problematic uncertainty: did use different metrics for the PS3 and the Xbox? And did they use different formulas for each of the model of the Xbox 360 (after all, the first ones were much more prone to break then the later ones)? Do they know if replacement units from the lab are something that MS and Sony put into their "units shipped" numbers (I'm asking because I seriously have no idea)?
It makes sense that they should use different percentages, but if indeed they did - then where did they gather this information from? More statistical samples and estimations?

We have so many variables and estimations put into such a formula, that it's almost completely irrelevant even if it was of any significance to developers. And it doesn't - because even if we are to take these numbers as fact, they don't even show us a trendline (they never gave us the numbers for previous years), and they don't help us understand the user base playing and purchasing patterns (as Shifty Geezer mentioned a few times here). We just have a tally which represents the number of people who turned on their console at least once in the past year - doesn't matter what they did with it when they turned it on, how many time they actively play games, or what is their monthly spending on games. Now THAT would be something beneficial for developers.
 
3) For any kind of calculation, they need to put in the formula the number of consoles actually sold through to customers each year. But this is again something that they don't know because we never have these numbers - only shipped numbers that the manufacturers send to retail. So they either track statistics with the likes of the NPD and chart-track (but this doesn't cover the whole word), or use another estimation like percentage of console out of the shipped numbers. Either way, we are throwing another kind of uncertainty into the equation.

Shipped consoles would be perfectly sufficient for this market survey.
 
My point was never to extrapolate any other meaning from this report.
Okay, maybe you weren't expressly looking to use this report as reference data for subsequent projections or the like, but isn't that the intended purpose of every such report? Is any company going to deliberately invest in gathering data that has no real-world application? I mean, they do, but that's not their intention! ;)

If this report is just, "yep, here's how many consoles get switched on at least once a year. Can't do anything with that data, but it is what it is," then I have to wonder why they even bothered. And it only has that interpretation now because we know what they were measuring. Before your email, all we had was a couple of figures and an assumption that this data was supposed to be meaningful somehow. Hence my complaints that without context you can't do anything with the data. Now, with context, we know there's nothing we can do with the data!
 
See, that's your first problem right there: you trust something to be given in the equation, and then you base your entire argument on that.

My entire argument was something else completely... But anyways I didn't base anything just on that report, but on other 100% known things as well, like the average age of the consoles, which I'm sure I've mentioned 1 billion times already.

What you call my first problem, I call formulating an opinion from limited information. Their conclusion added to some other things made sense to me. Yeah the data is incomplete, but I think it's PROBABLE that they are correct, I'm not betting my house or even 1 dollar on it, I just think that probably they are right. You know life's a bitch, we don't have the luxury of having 100% complete information all the time to make quaranteed right conclusion.

Your "first problem" seems to be the inability to work with anything other than quaranteed information.
Insufficient data, does not compute applies if you'r a computer.

The rest of your post about the statistics is unnecessary complicated. The fact that the qualifying method was so loose "turned on once a year" essentially means shipped figures units minus broken units with little bit of extra. You don't need all that crap you mentionded (location, age gender etc.) to estimate something like that to reasonable accuracy.

Also are you basically trying to disaprove a report made by a long lived multinational analysts company, by just saying analysing these things is "kinda hard"...

because even if we are to take these numbers as fact, they don't even show us a trendline (they never gave us the numbers for previous years), and they don't help us understand the user base playing and purchasing patterns (as Shifty Geezer mentioned a few times here). We just have a tally which represents the number of people who turned on their console at least once in the past year

Noboby is suggesting to take them as facts, and in any case usage patterns are different albeit important thing, and were not what was topic here or in the summary of that report. I hope that's the last time I have to repeat that line, because my stress levels are rising.


Edit:
Okay, maybe you weren't expressly looking to use this report as reference data for subsequent projections or the like, but isn't that the intended purpose of every such report? Is any company going to deliberately invest in gathering data that has no real-world application? I mean, they do, but that's not their intention! ;)

If this report is just, "yep, here's how many consoles get switched on at least once a year. Can't do anything with that data, but it is what it is," then I have to wonder why they even bothered. And it only has that interpretation now because we know what they were measuring. Before your email, all we had was a couple of figures and an assumption that this data was supposed to be meaningful somehow. Hence my complaints that without context you can't do anything with the data. Now, with context, we know there's nothing we can do with the data!

Yeah All I can say to that is that it still imo is slightly more useful than just the installed base number, but the full report should have more usefull information.

There's the table of content for the report
http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=reportabstractviewer&a0=6222

I don't think the active user base currently is the main focus there, of course it is what catches headlines effectively. I think the report is mostly about future performance and potentials of these platforms.
 
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Yeah All I can say to that is that it still imo is slightly more useful than just the installed base number, but the full report should have more usefull information.
I dunno. I regard both as pretty useless for whatever purpose one might want that sort of information. eg. Developing a game, you'd look more at unit sales of other games and tie ratio and stuff.

There's the table of content for the report
http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=reportabstractviewer&a0=6222

I don't think the active user base currently is the main focus there, of course it is what catches headlines effectively. I think the report is mostly about future performance and potentials of these platforms.
Ah, okay. Who'd have thought the media would have grabbed a headline and spun it out of all relevance to the source into a completely false argument?...
 
Ah, okay. Who'd have thought the media would have grabbed a headline and spun it out of all relevance to the source into a completely false argument?...

I wouldn't say it was totally irrelevant as the definitions are the same for both consoles and worldwide sales seem to be going in Sony's favour (after previously being 6-7m behind).

I guess it's not a surprise that the media slightly exaggerated the story. I think the price/sales in a global downturn part of the argument is the more interesting part of it.
 
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