WMCE System Suggestions

[AzBat]

Looks like I might be getting some extra cash soon. So I've decided it's probably time to make my first personal system purchase in over 6 years. I really wanted to get an Xbox 360 but I still think the price needs to drop before I do. Plus, the wife wasn't liking that idea anyway. LOL

Since it's been awhile since I've purchased my own personal system, I decided to have a quick look at all the systems at my local Best Buy Sunday. They had HP and eMachines. I personally prefer a custom system from Dell, but I loved the prices at Best Buy(<$600). However, I don't know much about the brands, their CPUs, GPUs, memory and other technologies. That's when I quickly realized I'm way behind the times. Hopefully some of you guys can help me out.

I've decided I want a Windows Media Center PC. The biggest reason is because I want to be able to access it via my future Xbox 360. I will be using the computer almost exclusively for music, videos, photos, etc. I've got a HDTV home theater setup and it would be nice to be able to stream HD content from the Media Center. TiVo-like features would be great, but the extra tuner could add significantly to the cost of the system. Internet will be the next biggest use. However, considering that I'm using a P2-450 running Win98 as I write this message, any computer bought today should be more than adequate. Games will be played, but not any high-end games like shooters, etc. My wife will be buying games like Sims 2, Bejeweled and other casual type games. I'll stick to playing my games on Xbox and Xbox 360.

There is one huge problem though I'm looking to buy a system at the end of Windows XP's life cycle. Purchasing a system this late in the cycle I'm unsure if the system will be sufficient for upgrading to Vista. It would be nice if my system would be able to handle Vista Home Premium running the Aero interface. I'm not sure how this affects my system requirements now. I understand that Microsoft started their Vista-Ready logo program, but from what I can tell it's only for Vista Starter minus the Aero interface.

Let's recap what my requirements are:

1) Great value ( around $1000 or less)
2) Media Center Edition for music, video, photos, possibly TV.
3) HDTV content streaming to Xbox 360
4) Upgrading to Vista Home Premium w/ Aero
5) Internet and Casual gaming

I now need some suggestions on a brands, CPUs, GPUs, and memory. I'm not real concerned with writing DVDs, but I do want at least a DVD-ROM with CD-ROM writing support. I'm also not concerned about the graphics card, soundcard(provided it has a 5.1 digital out), hard drive sizes or my monitor(17" CRT is plenty). A Wi-Fi adapter and a cheap printer would be nice.

Any suggestions you guys can provide would be great. I'm not real interested in building my own system, but I may find that my financial requirements may dictate a custom system.

Thanks again.

Tommy McClain

 

[poopypoo]

well, i'm the wrong person to ask about brands. I can say this -- my stepdad recently bought a pc from best buy - a compaq sempron 3200 with 512 MB ram and a 120 GB hdd for $250. that's pretty sick and it pisses me off to NO end because WINDOWS should almost cost more than that if i wanted to sell one, but anyway. The price doesn't reflect what YOU want of course, but i was impressed to find, when i added more memory for him, that compaq's case was quite nice, toolless (mostly 9_9), and they'd actually bothered to use DDR400 in dual channel. I was amazed -- retail PCs have come a long way in the last five years or so (not that i really pay attention).

So my recommendation is to find the sweet spot in some hardware... as much as they get way better deals than we can, the retail PC market still depends on manufacturer pricing, so... right now for h.264 decoding, i'd say you want something ranging from sempron 3000 to a64 3800, or amd x2-3800 if you want to go dual, or if you have the cash, the cheapest intel core 2 duo would be great. then you need a mobo with good sound. MSI has made a few nice ones lately. 1 GB RAM will be depndent on your processor of course, and lastly you need a tv tuner. they're cheap -- last one i bought was an ATi theatre 550 one, but those are old now. shouldn't cost more than $50, works great, comes with a remote. An all-in-wonder card would be better, and about $200 - try this or this (not sure if the latter has AVIVO?), and let you run games. However, for sims 2 and bejewelled, any modern ati or nvidia IGP will run those games fine, ut they won't do h.264 decoding at HD res very well. dvd-r will be a must, i like nec 4570 for $40. lastly, a $100 hdd is usually fine, i just got a 320 GB seagate for that. let's see, that should run you ($100 nice HTPC case+PSU, $50-$250 CPU, $100 RAM, $75 mobo, $50-200 video card, HDD $100, dvd-r $40) or about $5-900 without a monitor. might be able to get a name brand one for 2/3 that cost, plus it'll have WMCE installed! but you'll have to accept sacrifices, or get hosed on things like RAM upgrade, HDD upgrade, HTPC case, etc. good luck!

Edit: forgot to mention that your best bet is probably a local PC shop. My stepdad went to one for years (until he moved) that was run very well by an Indian family. They were very knowledgable, stood by their warranties (and in so doing, they absolve you of the need to RMA anything -- a slow and slightly costly experience), and charged, by my estimation, about the least you could possibly expect for their labor, which was of course, available locally, 7 days a week. Trick there will be getting a recommendation -- not all mom & pop shops are legit, of course, and MS is cracking down these days on pirated OSes, etc. and I imagine more than a few of these shops don't do a lot of HTPCs.

 

[ERP]

Make sure you understand the restrctions of a HTPC before you buy.

In terms of streaming content to your 360, this works, but has limited codec support, the X360 will not decode XVid or DivX videos for example. There are ways around this by transcoding the content, but they leave a lot to be desired in terms of usability.

In terms of HD, understand that WMCE does not support QAM, what that actually means is that the only HDTV channels available are the ones available to you OTA (oryou need to control it thorugh the satelite box), and if you get a lot of channels from a premium service (say cable or satelite) your only option is to setup your PC to control your cable box ala Tivo which limits you to a single tuner.

Personally I really like WMCE, it's incredibly well done for what it is. I'd consider waiting for Vista though, we know cable card support will be there, but there is currently some doubt as to whether you'll be able to buy a cable card adapter, or whether they will only be available in approved complete machines.

You should also plan to minimise noise when you build it, everything in mine is passively cooled with the exception of the PSU and the CPU.

I'd figure $150 for the case/PSU, $100 for the CPU, $100 for the RAM, $100 for the MB, $100 for the video card (remember you don't need abything stellar I run a 6600), +whatever you want in terms of drives. Of course MCE will also cost you $100 or so, you'll need a wireless mouse and keyboard (say $70), and an MCE remote $30 but it should be doable in your budget.

Pick up a cheap tuner card (ideally with a built in encoder), but make sure it lists MCE compatability, not all devices work with MCE. It should be noticed though that there is a noticeable quality difference between analog tuners (ATI and Haupage seem to be the favored solutions), and if you have the budget and you watch a lot of TV on your HTPC you might want to step up.

HD tuners are a somewhat more difficult question, they're relatively expensive and for OTA it's about reception sensitivity since they all just write the signal straight to disc without unencoding it.

 

[JBark]

Just a couple additions to ERP's "right on the mark" post....

Transcode360 is pretty to use, and can handle every movie format I've tried. Just install it on the MCE machine, and then about 3 clicks instead of one to play the video on the 360.

OTA HDTV tuners have gotten pretty cheap lately. I picked up my Avermedia A180 for $65, and the VBOX DTA-150 can be had for about $70. The newer VBOX Cat's Eye USB HDTV tuner is around $90 or so, still pretty reasonable.

The ATI Theatre550 Pro cards are nice, and the kit with the remote should be less than $100. The PVR-150 is another popular card, but it doesn't clean up a poor picture as well as the ATI card does.

And yes, MCE is quite easy to use and works well. Setup was completely painless, and I was watching HD and regular SD in a matter of minutes.

 

[ERP]

The only issues I had on the MCE install, was that it asks for the first disc back only reading the text it looked like it was looking for an SP2 disc. If you do put an SP2 disc in or cancel the request it totally screws up your install. Apparently reading the web I'm not the only one who's been caught out by this. I also had the usual array of driver issues when setting up any new PC, but it's been relatively flawless ever since.

One other thing to note is that in a MC PC, slots are actually important and modern motherboards don't come with many, so make sure you count how many you've got and how many you need. I run a haupage PVR500 card for TV, because it gave me 2 tuners in a single PCI slot. I also run the on board sound card to save a slot.

 

[Tahir2]

I also run the on board sound card to save a slot.

How have you got your sound connected up? I ask because I noticed the quality of sound go up substantially by using a discrete soundcard like an Audigy.

 

[ERP]

I run it straight from the SPDIF to my reciever.
I have pertty much everything set to just pass through.

 

[AzBat]

Just a quick "Thank you guys" for all the replies. I greatly appreciate it. Definitely gave me some ideas.

First, of all after some looking online I think I'm leaning more to a pre-built or custom packaged system from Dell, HP, Gateway, etc. I'm also looking at dual core processors like the Intel Core 2 Duo. I've never in my life bought an AMD, but depending on the price I might reconsider. I'll probably just stick with 1GB of DDR memory. I don't like the idea of embedded graphics, especially if it's just Intel, but the extra cost of a good PCI-E video card might be too much for my budget. Though it would be nice to go with ATI and maybe the All-in-Wonder. Which brings me up to my next issue: TV tuner. I did some extensive research and found that streaming recorded HDTV content is supported, but you still have to have 2 tuners. WMCE requires an analog tuner before the digital one. I also understand and accept the idea that it only currently supports OTA broadcasts. That's what I'm using on my HDTV anyway. It would have been nice to find a dual-tuner that had one analog and one digital, but I didn't see any. So I'll have to have seperate cards for each if I want HDTV recording. I think I'd rather do that than have my graphics handle the decoding.

As for the codecs issue when streaming to the Xbox 360, I'm not at all concerned with it. Recording TV and possibly WMA-HD movies might be the extent of my HD content and like others have mentioned, converting the content shouldn't be much of an issue.

My other concern is the pass-through for Dolby-Digital 5.1 sound. My receiver has one optical and one coaxial connection. I'm already using the optical for my Xbox, but the coaxial is free. However, I do have one of those 4-port optical manual switchboxes from RadioShack. I wasn't sure if modern computers with built-in sound have any of those outputs. I'd hate to have to use my original SBLive! just to get the coaxial output.

Laslyy, I'm really concerned about Vista. I'd really like to use it once it comes out. Considering how long it has taken me to decide to get a new computer, I really don't want to be using XP for another 5-6 years. If anybody has done any beta testing and has some suggestions on how I should approach getting a system to run it, I'd love to hear it. If I knew I could wait till Vista shipped before buying a system I would. Unfortunately, I'm not real convinced that Microsoft will actually ship in January. And if they do, I'm concerned that the system prices may not be in my budget.

Thanks for the replies again guys. It looks like I still have a lot to consider before I make the plunge.

Tommy McClain

 

[JBark]

It would have been nice to find a dual-tuner that had one analog and one digital, but I didn't see any. So I'll have to have seperate cards for each if I want HDTV recording. I think I'd rather do that than have my graphics handle the decoding.

You might take a look at the VBox Cat's Eye 164e PCI-e tuner. It's a dual tuner card, and each tuner can recieve NTSC or ATSC. Set one to NTSC and one to ATSC, and you should be set. It's very hard to find at the moment (just released), but if it's anything like the previous VBox cards, it should be an excellent tuner. Only place I've found it is on ebay right now, for $199. Give it a couple weeks, and I'm sure a few more places will have it.

As for the decoding, I don't think any of the HDTV cards are decoders, so you'll want a somewhat decent video card. My Radeon 9000 was too slow (choppy 1080i playback), but my 6800GT is more than enough. I'd imagine even something like the x300 would be good enough, and it's dirt cheap.

 

[ERP]

If your just going to use it for media, you don't need a Core Duo, I use an Athlon 3200+, and can't say I've ever felt the need for more CPU speed.
Having said that I don't play games on the box.

I believe ATI has a board with one SD tuner and an HD tuner I think it's the Theater 650 pro, but I might be mistaken and you may not be able to use both simultaneously.

As to Vista, just my opinion but wait until it ships, Microsoft Beta's aren't usually very friendly about upgrading to the release version.

 

[Skrying]

I personally believe media is one of the real benefits of having dual core. You can rip and encode MUCH faster and you can also do many different media programs at the same time without slow down. A great advantage to have.

 

[AzBat]

You might take a look at the VBox Cat's Eye 164e PCI-e tuner. It's a dual tuner card, and each tuner can recieve NTSC or ATSC. Set one to NTSC and one to ATSC, and you should be set. It's very hard to find at the moment (just released), but if it's anything like the previous VBox cards, it should be an excellent tuner. Only place I've found it is on ebay right now, for $199. Give it a couple weeks, and I'm sure a few more places will have it.

As for the decoding, I don't think any of the HDTV cards are decoders, so you'll want a somewhat decent video card. My Radeon 9000 was too slow (choppy 1080i playback), but my 6800GT is more than enough. I'd imagine even something like the x300 would be good enough, and it's dirt cheap.

Thanks for the info JBark! Didn't know about that one. However, $200 seems a bit much. Though I would be saving a slot. Oh well.

As for the HDTV decoding, that blows. What's the point of having a HDTV tuner if the decoding is not done on the card? Here I was hoping not to have to think about getting a decent graphics card. I think I'd rather stick with ATI, so I guess I'll look into a x300. Weird thing is Dell and HP don't offer many, if any, ATI cards on their custom machines. Rather not have to add it after the fact.

Tommy McClain

 

[AzBat]

If your just going to use it for media, you don't need a Core Duo, I use an Athlon 3200+, and can't say I've ever felt the need for more CPU speed.
Having said that I don't play games on the box.

I personally believe media is one of the real benefits of having dual core. You can rip and encode MUCH faster and you can also do many different media programs at the same time without slow down. A great advantage to have.

Personally I don't think I'll need a dual core processor for XP Media Center or even the low-power games I might play. However, I'm wanting to upgrade to Vista once it comes out and keep my computer for some years to come. With that said, I think a dual core processor would add a bit security and future-proofing.

I believe ATI has a board with one SD tuner and an HD tuner I think it's the Theater 650 pro, but I might be mistaken and you may not be able to use both simultaneously.

Hmm, interesting. I guess I'll check into that one as well.

As to Vista, just my opinion but wait until it ships, Microsoft Beta's aren't usually very friendly about upgrading to the release version.

Umm, I don't think I ever said I was going to be running Vista Beta. I like my software released thank you. I'll run XPMCE2005 until Vista Home Premium ships. Hopefully Microsoft and the vendors will have some kind of low-cost or free upgrade path for those that purchase XP systems within a few months of Vista's release. They've done it before.

Tommy McClain

 

[ERP]

I personally believe media is one of the real benefits of having dual core. You can rip and encode MUCH faster and you can also do many different media programs at the same time without slow down. A great advantage to have.

This is a good point.
I generally don't Rip and encode on the same machine, since my HTPC is just that, but if it's your primary machine it's worth consideration.

 

[Tahir2]

I run it straight from the SPDIF to my reciever.
I have pertty much everything set to just pass through.

I have finally managed to get my system running through SPDIF after following kyleb's advice. It just took me a long time to source the Mono to RCA cable... mainly because I was asking the wrong people.

Got it hooked up through my receiver and everything sounds wonderful