Will Warner support Blu-ray?

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http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/10/20/business/dvd.php

The tactic of courting Chinese makers has been largely taboo in Japan, where manufacturers like Sony and Panasonic have long tried to delay their technology from turning into cheap commodities. But Toshiba's decision could have significant ramifications in the race for the billions of dollars that will very likely flow from the next generation of DVD technology that promises sharper pictures, enhanced audio and more disc storage.

So clever strategy or sheer desperation? I'll leave it to others to judge.

Either way, I don't think this is going to make Japanese HDDVD manufacturers happy.
 
So, have I understood it right that the strength of iHD is that it's easier to make a HD disc menu system with it, not that it's more flexible, runs code faster, has more features and makes it possible to produce menus that are visually richer, faster to navigate and has better connectivity?

If so, isn't it pretty much the job of a BD-J menu authoring software to streamline the disc authoring process? There would be such software from for example Adobe, Macromedia.... some would be easier to use than others.

Like if you had to code the menus with assembly versus iHD authoring software.
Is that what you meant PC-Engine?

Even if the discs were autored with some pure BD-Java and some pure iHD xml languages, line by line, would the differences in difficulty really be that much so that it would be a dealbreaker and worth this much debate?

one said:
Amir Majidimehr, the vice president of the Windows Digital Media division at Microsoft, made BDA to adopt VC-1 by expressing neutrality on the 2 HD formats. Now that it was breached, it's like remove VC-1 from Blu-ray or remove Amir's seat at the Windows Digital Media division...
And we should trust this man being totally unbiased when it comes to iHD vs BD-J :D
 
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Ty said:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/10/20/business/dvd.php

So clever strategy or sheer desperation? I'll leave it to others to judge.

Either way, I don't think this is going to make Japanese HDDVD manufacturers happy.

A lot of the cheap DVD players from Japanese companies are outsourced to China anyway. In fact look at where your PS2 or GCN is manufactured. It's a fact of life so it's better to just get used to it. In fact one of the biggest LCD panel makers is in Taiwan. Look at your DVD drives in your PC...guess where it's made. This decision to get the Chinese manufactures onboard was made a LONG time ago. In fact it was made last year so there's no desparation involved. Same with the manufacturing of discs. Cheaper hardware means faster consumer adoption, basic economics.

Ty said:
Come on now. "There's nobody in favor of HDDVD over BR except you. That's surely a hint at something."

Then how come there are companies behind HD DVD that are not behind BR? OTOH there are no companies behind BD-J.

So, have I understood it right that the strength of iHD is that it's easier to make a HD disc menu system with it, not that it's more flexible, runs code faster, has more features and makes it possible to produce menus that are visually richer, faster to navigate and has better connectivity?

If so, isn't it pretty much the job of a BD-J menu authoring software to streamline the disc authoring process? There would be such software from for example Adobe, Macromedia.... some would be easier to use than others.

Like if you had to code the menus with assembly versus iHD authoring software.
Is that what you meant PC-Engine?

Even if the discs were autored with some pure BD-Java and some pure iHD xml languages, line by line, would the differences in difficulty really be that much so that it would be a dealbreaker and worth this much debate?

I'm saying iHD works as well or even better than BD-J for what you'll be using it for interactive MENUs and it requires less processing power. You don't use a bulldozer to dig a 1 foot hole nor would you want to.
 
How many of us have regularly used interactive content on some DVDs?

Or mounted the DVD in Windows PCs to look at web links and other "extras" more than a few times?

How many of us consider such interactive content when selecting which DVDs to buy?

Are people really looking at that stuff that we think interactive content in the next generation is going to be a big deal?

It's hard to believe what seems like a very infrequently used feature of current DVDs is a major sticking point in the next generation disc format.
 
PC-Engine said:
I'm saying iHD works as well or even better than BD-J for what you'll be using it for interactive MENUs and it requires less processing power. You don't use a bulldozer to dig a 1 foot hole nor would you want to.
Is the difference so big in favour of iHD that it has any signifigance? Is BD-J so processing power hungry that it'd be apparent to the end user, i.e. the menus would be visibly slower in operation on BR discs? Does the BD-J require that much more powerful developer workstations that they would be that much slower to author on the same computer as iHD diss? Doe BD-J need more expencive processors inside the Blu-Ray players/recorders so that the same processors that would be used in HD DVD machines would be insufficient for BD-J menu operation?
Or is the difference really such it has no effect in anything except some benchmarks?
 
Amir said you'd need real programmers for BD-J whereas iHD could be done by web developers.

Said MS didn't want to deal with support issues with Java, which will have bigger resource requirements.

Then the big deal is supposedly $3-6 per player licensing fee and the prospect of HP paying $300 million a year in licensing for BD-J. Wow that implies a lot of units moved.

http://www.vialicensing.com/products/dvb/mhp/license.terms.html
 
rabidrabbit said:
Is the difference so big in favour of iHD that it has any signifigance? Is BD-J so processing power hungry that it'd be apparent to the end user, i.e. the menus would be visibly slower in operation on BR discs? Does the BD-J require that much more powerful developer workstations that they would be that much slower to author on the same computer as iHD diss? Doe BD-J need more expencive processors inside the Blu-Ray players/recorders so that the same processors that would be used in HD DVD machines would be insufficient for BD-J menu operation?
Or is the difference really such it has no effect in anything except some benchmarks?

DemoCoder from the HD-DVD said:
If that's the case, than C and C++ are slow because they require "more processing power" than hand-tuned assembly.

There are some cases where Java is not optimal, just like there are some cases where C++ OO features introduce an overhead, so C++ programmers fallback to not using them (e.g. virtual dispatch), but in the majority of cases, Java can be made to run at close to C speeds, as the benchmark I've shown above demonstrates. In fact, there are a significant number of cases where Java will perform better -- when using third party dynamically loaded libraries, Java can inline dynamic method dispatches, whereas C++ can't (static linking vs dynamic linking with reoptimization)

In any case, Java will be much faster than JavaScript.




Yes, the most popular BitTorrent client, Azureus, is written in Java. Maple, the popular college symbolic math manipulation workbench, is Java. Eclipse and IntelliJ, two of the best development tools out there (IntelliJ ABSOLUTELY DESTROYS Visual Studio) are Java. In fact, Azureus and Eclipse demonstrate why the Myth of slow Java user interfaces comes down to the design of the API toolkit used and the way it is used, and is not inherent in the language.

I've got 10 years Java experience. I've founded, and sold two companies using it. I've written TCP servers that scale to tens of thousands of simultaneous concurrent users, ported codecs and cryptography layers to Java that run faster than C++ counterparts, written 2 compilers, and a ray-tracer using it. I have a pretty good idea of what it's raw performance is like, and "slow" is not a moniker I would use. I would not claim that it will beat C/C++/Fortran in general, but the performance deficit for properly written code is not huge.

Like I said, you are completely ignorant as to the issues with performance and resource consumption in Java, so it is best to close your mouth before you put your foot in it.


DemoCoder makes some good points on this.
 
wco81 said:
Amir said you'd need real programmers for BD-J whereas iHD could be done by web developers.

Web developers *are* programmers. Now, some might say that Web Developers aren't "real" programmers. :)

Amir is setting up a false dichotomy. If you only use iHD's layout features, the proper spec to compare it do is HDMV and clearly, HDMV is easier to author than iHD XML, and will be more familiar since HDMV is based on the same DVD Menu architecture. We're over a decade into the web, and WYSIWYG HTML editors still aren't good enough, requiring hand editing of HTML code.

But once you start adding JavaScript event handlers to iHD you've gone into the realm of writing executable code, calling methods, assigning variables, and this isn't going to be any harder in JavaScript than BD-J.

Moreover, with BD-J it is unlikely that all BRDVD authors will "write" BD-J code. Instead, they will probably buy "XLet" components from small software company vendors, add them to their authoring tools, and reuse those components, the same way you buy plugins for Adobe Premiere or After Effects, instead of writing your own. This will create a market of reusable components.

Said MS didn't want to deal with support issues with Java, which will have bigger resource requirements.

CDC (which BD-J is based on) runs in <512k of RAM. I'd like to see MS's resource requirements for iHD's core class libraries, plus JavaScript interpreter. This is just FUD. MS *hates* Java. They don't own it, they tried to kill it several times, and now they've effectively cloned it with .NET

Then the big deal is supposedly $3-6 per player licensing fee and the prospect of HP paying $300 million a year in licensing for BD-J. Wow that implies a lot of units moved.

What's the licensing fee for iHD? Is MS/Disney going to be generous and give it away for free? Given the desparation of the HDDVD camp, I wouldn't put it past them. MS would hope to recoup the money by selling authoring tools and maybe WinCE/XP embedded. What's the patent status of iHD? Any submarine patents waiting that could hit HD-DVD vendors later?
 
Hey I'm just the messenger. Here is what a less partial source said about BD-J vs. iHD. He's a marketing director at Sigma Designs, who's attended meetings for both formats:

For BD-J, it is basically the same as what $49 cell phones and $100 DVB STBs use, many CE companies are already Java licensees, and many already have experience with it in their STBs and phones. Systems that "auto-generate" the BD-J code for movies are already available. For those companies not already Java licensees, I can see how the fees would be rather shocking. I think someone raised this issue a few hundred pages back, but was beaten into submission. I've seen BD-J running on a prototype BD player based on our chip and it looked very nice and smooth.

iHD is leaner and meaner, so uses less system resources. Very nicely defined.
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051021/tc_afp/japanustechnologydvdcompanysonywarner

"TOKYO (AFP) - Sony received a crucial boost in a war over new DVD formats as Warner Bros. became the latest Hollywood studio to announce its support for the struggling electronics icon's Blu-ray technology.

Warner Bros is already a member of a rival format group led by Toshiba, which said Friday that the Time Warner unit continued to collaborate closely with the group towards a commercial launch of its HD DVD technology.

Warner Bros. said it would now also release its films in the Blu-ray format, joining US movie giant Paramount Home Entertainment which is also hedging its bets by making films for both formats.

"Consumers will soon be able to enjoy a large selection of catalogue favorites and contemporary hits from Warner's vast library on the Blu-ray format," said Warner Home Video president Jim Cardwell."
 
wco,
What is being presented however is a false dichotomy, between iHD and BD-j. If all you're going to do is make a Hi-Def DVD with similar menus (play/setup/chapters/etc) HDMV will be used. BD-J does not exist to satisfy navigation requirements, although it can do them. BD-J exists to put interactive content on the disc and to enable network services. For what BD-J enables, it is technically superior to iHD. This is not to say that iHD doesn't fulfill its requirements, but that BR has requirements that go behind HD-DVD.

If you remember the Shockwave/Director market, you'll get a good idea of what they are targeting. Think Baby Einstein, or Time/Life home repair/DIY interactive learning.
 
PC-Engine said:
A lot of the cheap DVD players from Japanese companies are outsourced to China anyway. In fact look at where your PS2 or GCN is manufactured. It's a fact of life so it's better to just get used to it. In fact one of the biggest LCD panel makers is in Taiwan. Look at your DVD drives in your PC...guess where it's made. This decision to get the Chinese manufactures onboard was made a LONG time ago. In fact it was made last year so there's no desparation involved. Same with the manufacturing of discs. Cheaper hardware means faster consumer adoption, basic economics.

I think there is a difference between a Panasonic brand HD-DVD player being produced in China vs a Chinese brand HD-DVD player being produced in China. Anyhow that's how I read the article. Certainly many products are made in China but they still carry the Japanese label. The article seems to suggest (to me at least) that this will not be the case, thus squeezing out Japanese brands right from the start.

Or perhaps it's a matter of timing. Normally when a new technology launches, it's made exclusively in Japan. This is not going to be the case with HDDVD, thus squeezing out margins Japanese companies would get.

PC-Engine said:
Then how come there are companies behind HD DVD that are not behind BR? OTOH there are no companies behind BD-J.

I don't know and I do think that is a completely fair question to ask. Perhaps it's just a cost issue to them? iHD might be easier to support but offers less interesting things that can be done with it?

PC-Engine said:
I'm saying iHD works as well or even better than BD-J for what you'll be using it for interactive MENUs and it requires less processing power. You don't use a bulldozer to dig a 1 foot hole nor would you want to.

But it seems (from DC) that BD-J offers more leg room for doing more intesting things with it other than simple navigation.
 
One of the BR requirements is that discs be able to show up to date movies for upcoming shows. This alleviates the issue where you rent a DVD and get a trailer for "upcoming releases" for movies from the 1990s. BD-J plus any network enabled player (most of them) will satisfy this requirement.

Another is subtitle update, so that over time, studios may add substitle tracks that they didn't have time for in the initial release. Or better yet, the possibily exists for fan-made community subtitles like what is done with Anime today.

Whether or not you think these are important features, they have been described as highly desirable by studios.
 
Warners elaborates on why it joined the BDA and will be releasing on Blu-Ray. From twice.com:

Burbank, Calif. — Warner Brothers Entertainment announced Thursday that it now plans to release high-definition movies in the Blu-ray Disc format in addition to HD DVD, making it the second HD DVD studio to announce dual-format support.

The decision, which also involves Warner joining the Blu-day Disc Association’s board of directors, comes just days after Paramount made a similar announcement.


Explaining why Warner opted to announce its decision at this time, Warner Home Video (WHV) president Jim Cardwell told TWICE that “the specifications for Blu-ray were being finalized and there were specific functionalities that we wanted in those specifications that we felt we could better influence if we were an insider in the BDA than if we were outsiders.â€

The move gives the Blu-ray camp, which is led by Sony, Philips, Panasonic and others, a significant power boost in its battle to control the next generation optical disc market.

The Time Warner owned studio had been one of the HD DVD camp’s biggest supporters. The HD DVD group is led by Toshiba and NEC.

At last January’s International CES, Warner led a number of studios, including Paramount and Universal, in announcing a slate of HD DVD titles they planned to release to support the launch of HD DVD.

That launch was planned for late this year, but was recently pushed back into early 2006, Toshiba said, to ensure enough software and hardware was available for a full-scale launch.

Warner executives have said for months that they preferred to release titles under a unified format to avert a format war like the Betamax vs. VHS contest that dogged the launch of the VCR in the early stages.

“We’ve been trying to get a single format for many years by talking to both of the different format makers,†said Marcia King, WHV new business development executive VP. “Despite our best efforts it appeared that a format war was inevitable and we want to supply our consumers with our product in what ever disc format they adopt.â€

King said Warner made its original decision to support HD DVD “based on the information that was available,†suggesting that Blu-ray backers had not revealed enough system information to satisfy the studio’s concerns.

Sony “provided us with some information about the platform and agreed to adopt some requirements that we thought were important in either format,†King said.

One element that King said Warner felt “very important†was inclusion of red-laser high-definition playback capability.

“The BDA adopted what they call the BD-9, which the HD DVD Group is calling HD DVD-9,†said King. “This is a red laser high-definition attribute, so you can use advanced compression to have red laser high definition discs. This provides us with a low-cost consumer option.â€


King said Warner also wanted assurances that a “managed copy†option would be included in the format. Managed copy, she said, is a part of the AACS content protection system that both formats have said they will include in their specifications. But King said AACS was not finalized yet.

“AACS, which contains managed copy, was done by a group with which we participate,†King explained. “We felt very strongly that in order to get that type of protection we would be able to give consumers more choice by having the managed copy available.â€

Among other things, managed copy would give consumers the ability to transfer legally acquired content from HD discs to other devices on a home network, including PCs and portable devices, while restricting the ability to mass produce that content or distribute it over the Internet.

Meanwhile, the BDA has said it will include an additional digital rights management (DRM) system called BD+. King said Warner still has not seen the BD+ spec and is uncertain of its full abilities and limitations.

“We feel AACS is state-of-the-art copy protection which has what we think we need as well as what the consumer needs,†said King. “We are not totally privy to what BD+ will do to that, but since we’ll have that option, we’ll feel comfortable now distributing our product in the Blu-ray format.â€

Less of a concern to Warner was what interactivity system the format would include. The HD DVD format has backed the Microsoft endorsed iHD system, while the BDA has sided with BD-J, a version of Sun Microsystem’s Java.

“iHD wasn’t one of the most important things we wanted,†WHV’s Cardwell, told TWICE.

King added, “But in light of what Hewlett-Packard has said we feel they should include both BD-Java and iHD.â€


Earlier in the week Hewlett-Packard, an early Blu-ray Disc supporter, asked the BDA to include the “managed copy†content management and “iHD†interactive control technologies supported by HD DVD into the Blu-ray spec. HP, a major PC manufacturer, wanted to ensure that the BD format would be fully supported by next-generation digital home networking systems and presumably the Windows Vista operating system that Microsoft will eventually release.

Prior to the HP request, Microsoft and Intel had announced exclusive support for HD DVD, citing “managed copy†and “iHD†interactivity among a list of key reasons for its decision.

In its Blu-ray support statement, the studio said that WHV “will release titles on the Blu-ray format to support the launch of Blu-ray players in North America, Japan and Europe.â€

“Consumers will soon be able to enjoy a large selection of catalog favorites and contemporary hits from Warner’s vast library on the Blu-ray format,†said Cardwell.

Due to the added cost, he added that WHV will likely sell separate SKUs of HD DVD and Blu-ray titles, rather than bundling discs of both formats in one package.

In reaction, Toshiba fired off a statement from Japan saying it continues to work with Warner Brothers on the commercial launch of HD DVD and that it is “more than confident†the announcement will not affect timely introduction of HD DVD content to the market.

Toshiba executives have said that Blu-ray has still not perfected mass production of BD-ROM discs that will be required for prerecorded movies, and that it expects to have an early lead in the market.

“We recognize Warner Brothers’ participation in the Blu-ray Disc Association represents the studio’s understandable commitment to listen to broad array of opinions and to continue to make technical evaluations of each format,†Toshiba’s statement reads.

Also this week, market research firm Forrester Research called for Blu-ray Disc to win the format war, due to its growing support base.

King said Warner continues to hope for a unified format, adding it’s hard to conjecture what would happen in the marketplace if both formats compete head-to-head.

“You can’t really compare this to VHS and Beta, because that was a different model where the recorder was out many years before we had prerecorded material on it,†said King.

OK, looks like BD-9 was the biggest thing to them. Which is regrettable because that means retailers will have to stock DVD, BD, HD-DVD, BD-9, HD-DVD-9 and hybrids. For all we know, Warners releases most of its titles on BD-9 and then releases token titles on BD.

The managed copy shouldn't be a big deal. HP asked for MMC but with MC, the studio could decide whether it will allow copying or not.

Asking for both BD-J and iHD may have consequences for royalties and retail pricing.

Warners already got HD-DVD-9, meaning it would collect patent royalties from using the DVD disc structure with advanced codecs to deliver HD resolution movies.

But by getting it on Blu-Ray, it means PS3 penetration could provide a big market for its red-laser high def DVDs. They were suspected of not wanting blue-laser at all, because they don't own patents to those. The story is, when it became clear Sony and the other Blu-Ray companies wanted to develop what has become the Blu-Ray format, Warners asked Toshiba to deliver an alternate blue-laser platform which would preserve their patents.

The important question is, will Warner's requests for BD-9 and addition of iHD add costs and delay the Blu-Ray spec, which in turn would delay the PS3?

What the hell is Universal going to want?
 
Warner is turning BR into a monster, a lower-quality monster (why the hell should I upgrade my whole library so I can get higher res, but with more compression artifacts?)

Warner wants to sacrifice quality for cost. It's like the same issue with Satellite and Cable. They'd rather have 1000 crappy HD channels than 200 high quality ones.

I guess I know which studio to avoid if I want to get the highest quality discs.

As we've known all along, HD-DVD is primarily about people holding onto patent revenues.

And why should a next-gen optical format be architected with Windows Vista in mind? Why is that a requirement, when no one has Vista, and what of Mac and Linux users? Why don't they get a say that the format will be nice to future versions of those operating systems? HP's justification of their position is downright evil.

Optical disc formats should be vendor and operating system neutral.
 
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Well, after reading that I'm much less excited about Warner's 'support' of the format - but I have even less doubt now that blu-ray will win if they really have shoved those changes through.

I'd love to see how the royalty pie is sliced up at the end of the day - seems like a total monster.

HD-DVD-9... I mean have I missed something here? They're talking about being able to play back the high-def content on red-laser machines? What's the point of the blue lasers then if we're going to slide into a red-laser rut anyway?

I don't know, it's all so... blah...
 
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I'll join in support of the bleh. I keep thinking "too many cooks in the kitchen spoils the soup". It seems like Sony and the BDA are bending over backwards for these studios and inadvertedly killing BD. I'm half wondering if a war wouldn't be better... either way there's gonna be multiple formats with this BD9 junks, it might just be better to leave warner out and have a trimmer cleaner BD spec. Aaa~h, will the consumer ever not get the short end of the stick?
 
I also wonder whether with managed copies, the file on the hard drive is going to end up having Windows Media DRM. Maybe that is Microsoft's angle more than the idea of a MCE future of media servers and so forth.

When MS was angling to get VC-1 into Blu-Ray, there was some resistance because peopel didn't like WM DRM. They insisted it was codec only. But who knows now?

MS is a founder of AACS, which specs. out the whole copy-protection regime, including MC and MMC, apparently.

MS is boasting about how VC-1 is an industry standard (although they were apparently required to submit it to SMPTE as a condition of being considered for use in both formats) and how iHD and AACS are joint ventures with studios and other tech companies.

Guess that's how they've made this all about working with Vista and MCE. They're starting the Vista hype, making it seem indispensable.
 
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