BlackNMild2k1
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Will Sony and/or Microsoft mimick the revolution controller?
- Thread starter Mendel
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BlackNMild2k1 said:
This is an EyeToy using image recognition to determine a wand's position and orientation. Nothing Revolution stealing about it. Sony have talked of props for use with EyeToy for yonks.
first of all i think nintendo is getting more credit than they deserve as "innovators" , they did not create rumble pack, analog stick or revolution controller style 3-d input device , they were the pioneers of implementing such ideas in console environment . Plus i don't understand why ppl are stuck the term "stealing" ,the name of the game is capitalism ,there is nothing more natural than competitors imitating/modifying/implementing successful business ideas in their products(not copyrighted ips, ideas like implementing analog stick in standartd contoller like nintendo did with n64 controller i'm talking about here). So should we call macos,windows,os/2 as stolen ideas just because the original GUI was Alto Computer system? Should only ford motor company use assembly line with interchangeable parts?
Fox5 said:
Indeed. The Xbox pad didn't copy the GC pad, it's a DC pad with a second analog stick in the only place you could put it when using the DC layout - and MS were always going to have a second analog stick following on from the dual shock.
The fact that Nintendo chose to use the DC pad as a template too, and put a second analogue stick in the only place you could put it when using a DC layout, doesn't mean that MS copied Nintendo. They copied someone else, and came up with the same, logical evolution that Nintendo did.
BTW there were first party wireless pads before GC and the Wavebird!
Edit: and if Nintendo prove to be onto a winner with the Revolution controller (as they hopefully will be), it won't be long before the others find a way of moving in on them ...
Bit of trivia, but Sonic Team had a motion detection controller in the works for their sequel to Nights on the Saturn. It plugged into the cable for the "3D controller", which was detachable from the main pad. Never came to pass though: being for the rapidly ailing Saturn can't have helped. Revolution might be the place for a sequel to Nights to appear, which would make me very happy as I still think it's one of the finest games made.
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function said:
The GameCube pad copied DC? Looks more like a dual shock with the dpad and the left analog stick switched to me. About the only thing they may have copied was the analog triggers.
What 1st party wireless controllers were there before Wavebird? I think nintendo had an IR one on the NES, but the Wavebird was pretty much the first quality wireless controller, and that's what really matters, getting it right. Sure, it's been possible for years to have a controller with revolution-esque technologies, the important thing will be whether Nintendo makes it work, or if it's just an overcomplicated gimmick that doesn't work well; much like just about every controller concept Sega made for the Genesis.
Bigus Dickus
Regular
Not sure where this falls in the timeline, but years ago I had wireless controllers for a Sega genesis.
Fox5 said:
Sure they copied it. Sega came up with the basic layout for the pad (two analogue triggers, analog top left, d-pad same side but lower and set in). Nintendo's first, pretty poor attempt was the three pronged trident pad for the N64 which they dropped without trace asap, while Sony tried simply bolting two analog thumbsticks to the bottom of their evolved SNES pad. Of the three layouts to emerge from the 32/64-bit generation the Sega one has been taken on by everyone but Sony. And I wish they would take it on too, because I think the Dual Shock has aged considerably now and their are much better alternatives.
For their part I'm sure it's no coincidence that Sega adopted triggers on the Saturn pad and a SNES style button arrangement for the DC.
All of these companies take from their competition, they'd be mad not to really.
Sega had IR ones for the MS and MD, and supposedly Saturn too. I've also seen 3rd party wireless pads for current systems. It's nice that Nintnendo made some quality official ones, but giving them credit for creating a movement in the industry would be wrong. 360 and PS3 would have had wired and wireless pads regardless.
I agree entirely with your point, the important thing is whether Nintnedo make it work as a standard controller, and whether it attracts the customers they need it to. Nintendo should be commended for taking risks, but what they haven't done is invent gaming ideas that weren't already in other people's heads (in terms of analogue, wireless, or motion sensing controllers).
I can't actually think of many controllers that Sega released for the MD btw. The light gun was poor, of course, and there was an aracde stick and probably a steering wheel. There was a 3rd party analog pad for the MD (touch sensitive) but I don't think any game ever used it for more than the standard 8 directions . Then there was that third party motion sensing ring that was supposed to detect actual punches and kicks - I'm guessing that didn't work too well.
Pity the MD VR headset got scrapped. It would have probably been completely rubbsh, but it would have made a great novelty item and couldn't fail to have been better than the discomfort inducing red-vison spectacular, the Virtual Boy!
Fox5 said:
You have to be logged in, then there should be an icon at the bottom of your post ...
Duck Hunt was a horribly tedious and simplistic game, but it sure got me excited back in the day, looking at it and the NES Zapper through the shop window. Wacky peripherals are exciting, it's a bonus if they actually work well.
Best NES peripheral ever (for exciting and pointless) had to be ROB though. And I never even used one.
Bigus Dickus said:
Was it first party though? Wireless controllers have been around forever.
I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing it. The shape of the gamecube controller is almost identicle to the dual shock, the only things is has in common with the DC's controller are that the primary control stick is in the top position and that it features analog triggers. And the Dreamcast controller was basically an evolved version of the saturn nights controller, which was a Saturn controller with extended grip and a joystick, and the Saturn controller was the Genesis 6 button controller.
I think not. Up until the wavebird pretty much all wireless controllers were crap, and Sony and Microsoft still never released official wireless controllers on their systems. I don't think you'd see the wireless controller on Xbox 360, certainly not as an almost standard) if it wasn't for Nintendo popularizing the concept. I don't think there's anything wrong with giving credit to the 1st company to do something right, those IR controllers were HORRIBLE.
Very true, I had a DOS/Genesis/Snes combo controller that had motion sensors in it. I also had one that was sort of like the VR-esque fake revolution controller, a headset with motion sensing technologies that only required a tilt of the head to make things occur. Sega also had their motion sensing actuator pad, which things like the Eyetoy and Police 911 can probably be considered descendents of. The thing is, with those old devices, the software used to demonstrate them sucked, and they did not integrate well with existing software. They may have been first, but they didn't work, the Eyetoy and Police 911 will have at least a small place in video gaming history (not quite fully working yet but much better) If the Revolution doesn't flop, it will be given credit for inventing a new controller type because it will have proven it works, the actual device doesn't matter if the implementation sucks.
The NES also had some kind of motion sensing controller that probably sucked, ROB the robot, and the infamous power glove.
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Is almost imposible to conceive an original idea, chances are someone already tough about it or materialize it first. So what we should take into consideration is at what time the idea implementation becomes practical. This is exactly what Nintendo does so well, so far at least.
What we need to take into consideration is how well you can adapt motion sensing/recognition to existing genres and what new genres it might bring to the table. If it becomes practical then the competitors will implement it into the games, it doesnt matter with what process or technology. In essence is all in the game mechanics, thats what you copy and improve on.
Eyetoy Some arcades used cameras to track player movements before the Eyetoy. Correct me if im wrong.
GC controller: Very similar in shape to the Virtual Boy pad. I cant remember of any other more or less popular dual thumb stick controllers, including third party, that used the right thumb stick in the GCN position.
Regarding Wave Bird: I have used or seen wireless controllers since Nes-Master System days and even earlier up unti now. They were completly impractical for several reasons, lag, signal loss, quick baterry drain, etc. The Wave Bird was the first time that the wireles controller for a console became practical. Nintendo revealed this controller on august 2000 but they made the a mistake by releasing it in 2002. Heck some developers had the Wave Bird previous the GC launch.
What we need to take into consideration is how well you can adapt motion sensing/recognition to existing genres and what new genres it might bring to the table. If it becomes practical then the competitors will implement it into the games, it doesnt matter with what process or technology. In essence is all in the game mechanics, thats what you copy and improve on.
Eyetoy Some arcades used cameras to track player movements before the Eyetoy. Correct me if im wrong.
GC controller: Very similar in shape to the Virtual Boy pad. I cant remember of any other more or less popular dual thumb stick controllers, including third party, that used the right thumb stick in the GCN position.
Regarding Wave Bird: I have used or seen wireless controllers since Nes-Master System days and even earlier up unti now. They were completly impractical for several reasons, lag, signal loss, quick baterry drain, etc. The Wave Bird was the first time that the wireles controller for a console became practical. Nintendo revealed this controller on august 2000 but they made the a mistake by releasing it in 2002. Heck some developers had the Wave Bird previous the GC launch.
Fox5 said:
The shape of the plastic is molded in a way which looks similar to the dual shock, but the layout and way you use it is clearly the same as the Nights/DC pad, with Nintendo's take on the ergonomics. The GC pad has the two lumps out of the bottom like a DS but the layout mimics the DC. And it's the layout that's important - like I say, three basic layouts came out of the 32/64 - bit generation.
When the GC pad was first shown off I remember that one of the Nintendo folks showing it off (might even have been Miyamoto) joked about how from some angle(s?) it looked like a DC pad. Interestingly, Z button aside they opted for the same number of buttons as Sega too, which hints at a similar design philosophy of "keep it simple".
The Nights controller was a radical departure from the previous Saturn controller, and it owes nothing to Nintendo [edit] in terms of using analog[/edit](not directed at you, but the Nboys who like to claim Nintendo invented analog). The Saturn's original digital controller looked to the SNES controller for its L&R triggers I have no doubt, and the DC pad (after minimising the number of buttons from the 9 seen on the Nights pad) opted for the diamond shape of main buttons that Nintendo had first shown off with the SNES.
Remember, at any time a console vendor can go back through the archives and pick and chose elements from their past or a competitor's. The SNES main button layout has proved incredibly popular, with Sega, MS, Sony and even SNK copying it for their home consoles. And countless PC pads have copied it too, of course. And what the SNES first used, the Playstation has put in everyone's home ...
I disagree, and think wireless is natural. Tv remotes have been wireless for years (I can just about remember wired remotes!), wireless networks are increasing popular, wireless mice and keyboards are very popular, and games systems for the last 20 years have had wireless pads. I can even use my Bluetooth PDA to controll stuff on my PC, not that I can be bothered setting that up.
We're just at the point where it's more practical now. Nintendo saw an opportunity to make money with an expensive first party peripheral, and did it. Fair play, but they didn't create the demand, and they haven't popularised the technology. Wireless was already "popular", and almost no-one (in the grand sceme of things) has used a Wavebird!
It also gives MS and Sony the ability to spend less money on ports for their consoles, and charge the customer more for pads, which is another reason why I think they would have opted for it anyway.
Then they'll be getting credit for inventing a concept that they didn't! Might as well give MS credit for inventing a windowing, point and click GUI! From a business sense though I suppose "the actual device doesn't matter if the implementation sucks".
I forgot about the Power Glove! I never used one of those either. I hope it was as bad as it looked, or it'll be letting the grand tradition on whacky console peripherals down. Stuff like the Eyetoy, those Sega fishing controllers (rumble, reel, motion snesning btw) and lightguns are actually quite good and therefore aren't as exciting.
Have you ever played Soul Calibur using the DCs fishing controller btw? Use the analogue stick for movement, and move the controller in the various directions to do the sword strikes. You can play it with one hand if you wish and do all the moves (with a little work).
Absolutely great fun in two player (yes, I've done it with two fishing controllers) and the best advert for Nintendo's Revolution that I can think of.
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Refreshment
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The WaveBird price was 5-10 dollars above the normal GC controller. So i dont consider that expensive. As for "they didnt create a demand" maybe you are right but we have to admit that third party wireless controllers became more common after the Wavebird realese and quality ones like the Madcatz.
Btw, im not trying to invalidate yor points but really the controller wasnt expensive.
Refreshment
Regular
Yea, in Europe you guys tend to get it rough, but that isnt just with the Wavebird thats almost with anything regarding video games.
Thats why i put 5-10 range, some stores put it at 5 more others 10. So the point was that the amount above the price of the normal controller doesnt make it expensive. The Wireless controllers by Madcatz and Logi were a lot more expensive than normal controllers, althogugh they have some extra features the WB doesnt have yet overall performance is better on the WB.
To continue with the topic i sumarized my point in my first post above one of yours
Mendel said:
I think the question should be....
Did Nintendo mimick Microsoft's Wand?
http://research.microsoft.com/~awilson/wand/default.htm
Of course, Microsoft's Wand also accepts Voice commands, so it was not only publically unveiled over a year before Nintendo's controller, it is more advanced.
Refreshment
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Regarding your question Powerkeg from my first post in the topic:
What has been the impact of the MS wand in the console world or in PC gaming since its public unvealing?
Probably there are devices previous to the MS wand that offered similar functionality. Theres a marriage between the control technology and software at the right time, that is necesary to move things further.
Another key aspect is that the revolution and its games are being desigigned around that control method.
They are the ones taking the gamble, MS didnt include the wand in your link with the XBOX 360 as far as i know.
What has been the impact of the MS wand in the console world or in PC gaming since its public unvealing?
Probably there are devices previous to the MS wand that offered similar functionality. Theres a marriage between the control technology and software at the right time, that is necesary to move things further.
Another key aspect is that the revolution and its games are being desigigned around that control method.
They are the ones taking the gamble, MS didnt include the wand in your link with the XBOX 360 as far as i know.
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