Will ATi jump on the SLI bandwagon?

[trinibwoy]

nVidia has a nasty habit of paper launching products a whole lot longer ahead of the actual product roll-out, I tend to not trust their timeframes too much.

Aren't the 6600GT's SLI equipped? Aren't they shipping or soon to be? Nvidia will have a hard time explaining why SLI capability on their drivers isn't functional to a dual 6600GT owner once dual-PEG boards become available. Here the dependency is not solely on Nvidia since Via also has a dual-PEG solution.

 

[Fodder]

66.31 seem to include SLI support, they have a Multi-GPU tab that advises owners of a single AGP 6800U to add a second one. :?

 

[jvd]

I expect a similar request from you to lock all those EQ2 threads that you started since I can't buy EQ2 now either.

perhaps you should quote me in contect , but what else can i expect from you .

Also, are you saying that the R520 will beat a dual 6800 GT/Ultra setup? I wouldn't want to believe that your fervent objections to SLI are founded in the fact that Nvidia provides it and ATI does not

I don't think a dual 6080gt or a dual 6800ultra would beat a r520 or a nv50 , the refreshes of the 6800ultra in sli might though.

However you'd still be comparing 2 300-400$ cards vs 1 500$ card . They aren't in the same price ranges .

You also don't get that it would cast both in a bad light.

Sure perhaps a 6900ultra sli is faster than the r520 , but then again it will be faster than nvidia's new flagship card . So any sales it would take away from ati its going to take away from nvidia too.

You will get the , well the 6900ultra sli is still the fastest card , why bother buying nvidia's new flagship . That would cary down the whole line. Would dual 6700gts be faster than the nv50 versions ? If so why bother upgrading to nvidia's new line of cards ?


I've said from the start that nvidia did this to spite thier face . They tried to screw ati but they are also screwing themselves in the long run .

anyway i fully believe based off the jump from the r300 - r420 that the r520 will be almost 3 times the speed of the x800xt pe , not to mention that i will most likely have a more advanced feature set . So yes i can see it being faster than a dual 6800ultra set up , because that be only at best case 2x the performance of a x800xt pe .

 

[digitalwanderer]

Aren't the 6600GT's SLI equipped? Aren't they shipping or soon to be? Nvidia will have a hard time explaining why SLI capability on their drivers isn't functional to a dual 6600GT owner once dual-PEG boards become available.

That didn't stop them last time, and it wasn't easy to explain then either.

Here the dependency is not solely on Nvidia since Via also has a dual-PEG solution.

Isn't Via sort of bound to nVidia somehow to incorporate SLI support into their mobos? (I really don't know, I'm asking)

 

[trinibwoy]

Isn't Via sort of bound to nVidia somehow to incorporate SLI support into their mobos? (I really don't know, I'm asking)

Good question. That would depend on whether Nvidia's SLI solution has some sort of dependency on the mobo chipset. I would think not else what exactly is VIA marketing?

 

[trinibwoy]

Why are we talking about sli right now , i can't buy an sli system so we should lock the thread.

I expect a similar request from you to lock all those EQ2 threads that you started since I can't buy EQ2 now either.

Where exactly did I quote you out of context?

 

[trinibwoy]

Sure perhaps a 6900ultra sli is faster than the r520 , but then again it will be faster than nvidia's new flagship card . So any sales it would take away from ati its going to take away from nvidia too.

Please explain how a consumer buying two 6900U instead of a single NV50 is taking away from nvidia sales? I hope I'm not the only one having trouble following your logic here. SLI is not for everyone. But it sure as hell is for someone. I hope one day you will appreciate that - but I guess that day will be the day ATI's SLI is announced

I've said from the start that nvidia did this to spite thier face . They tried to screw ati but they are also screwing themselves in the long run .

The expression is "cut off their nose to spite their face" And I thought Nvidia was in the business of making money - not screwing your beloved ATI as you so eloquently put it

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

Sure perhaps a 6900ultra sli is faster than the r520 , but then again it will be faster than nvidia's new flagship card . So any sales it would take away from ati its going to take away from nvidia too.

Please explain how a consumer buying two 6900U instead of a single NV50 is taking away from nvidia sales? I hope I'm not the only one having trouble following your logic here. SLI is not for everyone. But it sure as hell is for someone.

JVD is suggesting that instead of buying one NV40 and then upgrading to NV50, a cutsomer will buy a NV40, and then when NV50 arrives, will buy (a much cheaper by then) second NV40 for SLI.

So instead of a customer buying a full price NV40 and then a full price NV50, they will buy a full price NV40, then another NV40 which is a lot cheaper. Overall, Nvidia will lose out if customers upgrade down the line to a second NV40 in SLI rather than upgrade to NV50.

I hope one day you will appreciate that - but I guess that day will be the day ATI's SLI is announced

I suspect that ATI may be more likely to go the MAXX route ie, multiple cores on one board, as per the prototype Sapphire demoed a while back. Unless PCI-e and it's support for multiple graphics boards really is cheap and easy to impliment multiple board solutions.

 

[jvd]

dksuiko wrote:
jvd wrote:
Then factor in your only going to have mabye a half a year or so for the board that you bought to drop before you have r500 cards and mabye nv50 cards which will have much better performance and better feature sets at the same prices.


Why would you factor in the R500 and NV50 cards when the dual PCI-E boards come out? Those cards would obviously not be out yet at that time, so it's obviously just going to be a tech demo right? In fact, why discuss R500 and NV50 now - they're certainly nothing to talk about now nor when the dual PCI-E boards are available.


Why are we talking about sli right now , i can't buy an sli system so we should lock the thread.

The r520 cards are not all that far away , some are saying perhaps first half of next year , which is only about 8 or 9 months away ,if dual boards peg boards don't come out till around x mass , its just going to make the sli window on those cards smaller.

That is quoteing me correctly .

Posted: 25 Sep 2004 18:24 Post subject:

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jvd wrote:
Sure perhaps a 6900ultra sli is faster than the r520 , but then again it will be faster than nvidia's new flagship card . So any sales it would take away from ati its going to take away from nvidia too.


Please explain how a consumer buying two 6900U instead of a single NV50 is taking away from nvidia sales? I hope I'm not the only one having trouble following your logic here. SLI is not for everyone. But it sure as hell is for someone. I hope one day you will appreciate that - but I guess that day will be the day ATI's SLI is announced

Please read what BzB said .

The expression is "cut off their nose to spite their face" And I thought Nvidia was in the business of making money - not screwing your beloved ATI as you so eloquently put it

thanks for correcting the saying , first time i've ever used it .

Yes they are in the busniess of making money.

They put out sli to say they have the fastest video set ups . But in the long run its going to end up costing them money.

As instead of buying a nv40 when they first come out and then a nv50 when they first come out people will now upgrade when they can get two 6800ultra for cheap if it offers close to the same performance as the nv50 , or perhaps get a nv40 now and then buy an nv40 used later when the nv50 comes out. This will continue to cut into sales of the highend through low end (Afterall even the 200$ cards are sli able ) thus costing them money in the long run. Esp if they continue with this going foward.

 

[trinibwoy]

JVD is suggesting that instead of buying one NV40 and then upgrading to NV50, a cutsomer will buy a NV40, and then when NV50 arrives, will buy (a much cheaper by then) second NV40 for SLI.

So instead of a customer buying a full price NV40 and then a full price NV50, they will buy a full price NV40, then another NV40 which is a lot cheaper. Overall, Nvidia will lose out if customers upgrade down the line to a second NV40 in SLI rather than upgrade to NV50.

Ah I see. Now that is true. In a hypothetical market where SLI solutions are relatively prevalent - the company providing the SLI solution will indeed reduce sales of its next gen products as people upgrade their systems by adding a second last gen product. Now, as consumers shouldn't we be praising this initiative instead of finding ways to say "oh that would never work" ?

Nobody should refute the fact that SLI will provide the fastest rendering performance today for those who have the $$$. However, the success of SLI as an upgrade path really is dependent on the IHV's development schedule. If each generation is consistently 2x faster than the previous then the SLI option is less attractive. However, if buying into the next gen proves to be costlier than buying a second last gen card (which provides comparable performance) it may be a viable option.

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

Nobody should refute the fact that SLI will provide the fastest rendering performance today for those who have the $$$. However, the success of SLI as an upgrade path really is dependent on the IHV's development schedule. If each generation is consistently 2x faster than the previous then the SLI option is less attractive. However, if buying into the next gen proves to be costlier than buying a second last gen card (which provides comparable performance) it may be a viable option.

The thing is, SLI is a performance option only. It won't give you any of the new features. Imagine if NV35 was SLI - would you be looking to buy a second NV35 now, or would you get a NV40 in order to get better AA, SM3.0, the 2D processor, etc? The kind of power user who would be interested in SLI would want the new features.

I think that in that case, you are looking to sell SLI to the cutting edge people and they want the new features too, which SLI won't provide. The subset of those people on the bleeding edge that will want SLI but want two cards on release in order to have the most power from day one is an even smaller number of people.

 

[trinibwoy]

The thing is, SLI is a performance option only. It won't give you any of the new features. Imagine if NV35 was SLI - would you be looking to buy a second NV35 now, or would you get a NV40 in order to get better AA, SM3.0, the 2D processor, etc? The kind of power user who would be interested in SLI would want the new features.

That's not fair. The NV3x was a POS Anyway, considering the R420 has no new features over last gen what do you think I would have done if my old 9800P was SLI capable? I woulda slapped another $180 R350 in there and bam! - at least X800Pro performance at less than half the cost. Even better for the 9800XT or 9800Pro 256MB owners.

 

[jvd]

That's not fair. The NV3x was a POS Anyway, considering the R420 has no new features over last gen what do you think I would have done if my old 9800P was SLI capable? I woulda slapped another $180 R350 in there and bam! - at least X800Pro performance at less than half the cost. Even better for the 9800XT or 9800Pro 256MB owners.
_________________

except the r420 did have better features .

Anyway if i had a 9800pro i wouldn't have bought a x800xt thats for sure. i would have gotten a used 9800pro for 150$ . Ati would have eaten into thier own sales .

Lets just for an instance say the 5900ultra was as good as the 9800pro . Who would have bought an 6800ultra or 6800gt . You would have been looking at 6800gt performance for under 200$ at that point in time . Sm3.0 is the only big reason to upgrade and its not very usefull right now and i'm sure it wont be usefull untill at least the refresh of the 6800s .


Now look at the nv50 . If it does come out in 2005 , then it wont support dx next , it will most likely be a beefed up nv40 with perhaps sm3.0+ or whatever sm3.0 features the nv40 didn't support.

So next year if you bought a sli capable 6800ultra today , would you buy a nv50 which is still going to be confined to dx 9 specs or are u going to just buy a second used 6800ultra (or new) for under 200$ and get close to the same performance for 300$ less ?

Same goes if u buy a 6600 gt today. a second 6600gt for 100$ or under or a 7600gt for 200$ ?

As as i said , now it may be a good idea for nvidia but in the long term its not going to be great .


Which is why i think maxx has a slight edge in the long term department.

Its price will hurt its adoption but those who want the best performance can get it and not have to use more room in thier pcs or have a new mobo. Also ati can only make a certian amount (10k 800$ x800pro maxx cards ) then stop selling that maxx version and replace it with a refresh version. It will still have a slight hit on the highend the next round out , but not as much as sli .

 

[radar1200gs]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but nVidia has not announced SLI capabilty across the entire NV40 line, just the 6600GT (fans may wish they would, but that has nothing to do with reality).

Obviously, if nVidia does not release SLI versions of 6800GT/Ultra, you aren't going to be able to just add a second card and have enough power not to worry about NV50.

Sure perhaps a 6900ultra sli is faster than the r520 , but then again it will be faster than nvidia's new flagship card . So any sales it would take away from ati its going to take away from nvidia too.

Please explain how a consumer buying two 6900U instead of a single NV50 is taking away from nvidia sales? I hope I'm not the only one having trouble following your logic here. SLI is not for everyone. But it sure as hell is for someone.

JVD is suggesting that instead of buying one NV40 and then upgrading to NV50, a cutsomer will buy a NV40, and then when NV50 arrives, will buy (a much cheaper by then) second NV40 for SLI.

So instead of a customer buying a full price NV40 and then a full price NV50, they will buy a full price NV40, then another NV40 which is a lot cheaper. Overall, Nvidia will lose out if customers upgrade down the line to a second NV40 in SLI rather than upgrade to NV50.

I hope one day you will appreciate that - but I guess that day will be the day ATI's SLI is announced

I suspect that ATI may be more likely to go the MAXX route ie, multiple cores on one board, as per the prototype Sapphire demoed a while back. Unless PCI-e and it's support for multiple graphics boards really is cheap and easy to impliment multiple board solutions.

 

[JBark]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but nVidia has not announced SLI capabilty across the entire NV40 line, just the 6600GT (fans may wish they would, but that has nothing to do with reality)....

No they've announced it for the 6800GT and 6800U PCIe as well:
http://www.nvidia.com/page/sli.html

 

[trinibwoy]

except the r420 did have better features .

I disagree. There is nothing in R420 that makes it stand out above R350 except for the double pipeline count and higher clocks.

Anyway if i had a 9800pro i wouldn't have bought a x800xt thats for sure. i would have gotten a used 9800pro for 150$ . Ati would have eaten into thier own sales .

Ok, so why have you been disagreeing with me all this time? That is precisely why I am saying that SLI is feasible. First you say that it's not a good option for the consumer now you're saying it is a good option for the consumer but will hurt the company's profits. Which is it?

 

[jvd]

jvd wrote:
except the r420 did have better features .


I disagree. There is nothing in R420 that makes it stand out above R350 except for the double pipeline count and higher clocks.

You should learn how to read then.

Ok, so why have you been disagreeing with me all this time? That is precisely why I am saying that SLI is feasible. First you say that it's not a good option for the consumer now you're saying it is a good option for the consumer but will hurt the company's profits. Which is it?

Apparently you don't listen. I think its to expensive to be reasonable. I was using an example in which i already had the proper hardware required. A fictonal dual agp board .

To go out and buy a new mobo (That doesn't exist yet ) and cards (that don't exist ) and pay a premium for all this isn't end user friendly and only the highest of the high end will exploit this . I consider myself highest of the high end .

Secondly it also hurts nvidia more than ith elps them in the long run. Which you are saying it doesn't But have yet to show proof

 

[dksuiko]

Why would you factor in the R500 and NV50 cards when the dual PCI-E boards come out? Those cards would obviously not be out yet at that time, so it's obviously just going to be a tech demo right? In fact, why discuss R500 and NV50 now - they're certainly nothing to talk about now nor when the dual PCI-E boards are available.

Why are we talking about sli right now , i can't buy an sli system so we should lock the thread.

The r520 cards are not all that far away , some are saying perhaps first half of next year , which is only about 8 or 9 months away ,if dual boards peg boards don't come out till around x mass , its just going to make the sli window on those cards smaller.

Dual PCI-E boards aren't that quite far away, either. Less than 8 to 9 months, that's for sure. Yet, you used the "it's not available now, so don't discuss it" argument when arguing against it. But then when it's time to discuss R520, which is even further away, it's all flip-flopped for you. I just thought it'd be funny to point out your hypocrisy and how you contradict yourself. LOL!

 

[trinibwoy]

You should learn how to read then.

Care to provide some examples of these revolutionary features that were introduced in R420 instead of resorting to your usual infantile tactics?

Apparently you don't listen. I think its to expensive to be reasonable. I was using an example in which i already had the proper hardware required. A fictonal dual agp board .

To go out and buy a new mobo (That doesn't exist yet ) and cards (that don't exist ) and pay a premium for all this isn't end user friendly and only the highest of the high end will exploit this . I consider myself highest of the high end .

There you go again imposing your apparently limited budget on everyone else. Some people really won't blink an eye at an extra $20-$40 for a second PCIe slot you know. Several pages of another thread were spent explaining the concept of a 'new system build' to you so I won't get into it here.

Secondly it also hurts nvidia more than ith elps them in the long run. Which you are saying it doesn't But have yet to show proof

Please indicate where I said that? But of course you have provided proof to the contrary? Or are you some sort of economic genius who knows that Nvidia will not recoup the marketing and R&D costs for SLI through the hype and exposure of its [expected] performance.

 

[trinibwoy]

I just thought it'd be funny to point out your hypocrisy and how you contradict yourself. LOL!

I don't think he means to. He just gets confused sometimes.