Being the 'Odd Man Out' : how will it effect this generation of Consoles?

[onQ]

Last generation the Wii was the odd man out in almost every situation & it was a blessing & a curse for the system. The blessing was that it really didn't have any competition in the beginning because if you wanted to play games with a unique control interface Wii was your only option. The curse was 3rd party support wasn't as strong as it was on the other 2 consoles that shared similar power & features.

This generation Wii U is the odd man out on power but also share some similar controller features with the PS4 leaving the Xbox One as the odd man out when it come to touch & pointer controls for some games.

We already know that Wii U will get the short end of the stick from 3rd party devs because of the power differences but could the Xbox One met the same fate when there is new games from small develops that are built around touch & gyro controls? The gaming market is a lot different from what it was last generation & because of how big the tablet/smartphone gaming market has grown chances are we will see more & more games that need touch or gyro controls. .


For example if a dev made a console game like Subway Surfers or something like that & it needed more than dual analogs so they only release it for the PS4 & Wii U & it becomes a big hit.

 

[BRiT]

They could use SmartGlass or Kinect for Xbox One so they do have workarounds for that gimmick.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

That's true. Putting aside my disbelief that any dev is going to care to target the extended controller options, Sony have shown use of mobiles as gaming extras with SingStar. You could do the same with tilt controls. Of course, such a system on XB1 wouldn't be integrated with the controller so you'd have to swap devices, so it comes down to how they're used as to whether mobile devices are a suitable substitute.

At the moment though, XB1 isn't at a disadvantage. It's missing features that aren't going to be used in any significant way (let's not forget that devs aren't targeting PS4 and touchpad+tilt controls with their games, and are instead targeting next-gen PC and consoles. Any PS4 extras will be add-ons, not core features that relegate the games to third-party exclusives).

 

[temesgen]

That's true. Putting aside my disbelief that any dev is going to care to target the extended controller options, Sony have shown use of mobiles as gaming extras with SingStar. You could do the same with tilt controls. Of course, such a system on XB1 wouldn't be integrated with the controller so you'd have to swap devices, so it comes down to how they're used as to whether mobile devices are a suitable substitute.

At the moment though, XB1 isn't at a disadvantage. It's missing features that aren't going to be used in any significant way (let's not forget that devs aren't targeting PS4 and touchpad+tilt controls with their games, and are instead targeting next-gen PC and consoles. Any PS4 extras will be add-ons, not core features that relegate the games to third-party exclusives).

Shifty's right we won't see third parties do anything on either system that is very innovative wrt to technology that is unique to that platform. Developer's are going to code to the least common denominator in most instances. Its one of the few points that was being argued coming out of E3 a year ago that I can agree with. In many ways gaming is not progressing in areas outside of graphics at a similar pace and its potentially bad for the industry.

 

[onQ]

They could use SmartGlass or Kinect for Xbox One so they do have workarounds for that gimmick.

Kinect has been taking out of the box so it's not standard anymore + Kinect tracking is still 30FPS not really suitable for smooth\twitch controls. SmartGlass has no buttons & would defeat the purpose of the game being a console game instead of a mobile game.

Everything that's not controlled by analog sticks isn't a gimmick especially when touch & gyro controls are at the point where they will work better than analog sticks in a lot of situations & even can work better than a mouse for some controls.

 

[zed]

The ps4 will be the odd man out, since the install bases of the other two will be pretty similar halfway through the generation, bomb crash

seriously its the wii u

as the seasame street song goes, one of these things aint like the others ...

 

[onQ]

That's true. Putting aside my disbelief that any dev is going to care to target the extended controller options, Sony have shown use of mobiles as gaming extras with SingStar. You could do the same with tilt controls. Of course, such a system on XB1 wouldn't be integrated with the controller so you'd have to swap devices, so it comes down to how they're used as to whether mobile devices are a suitable substitute.

At the moment though, XB1 isn't at a disadvantage. It's missing features that aren't going to be used in any significant way (let's not forget that devs aren't targeting PS4 and touchpad+tilt controls with their games, and are instead targeting next-gen PC and consoles. Any PS4 extras will be add-ons, not core features that relegate the games to third-party exclusives).

This is why I mentioned the change in the gaming market. Every big game isn't going to come from a PC/Console background some will come from the mobile market. Having the right controls to accommodate these different control schemes could result in getting the next Temple Run, Flappy Bird , Candy Crush , Angry Bird , Ridiculous Fishing, Cut The Rope , Paper Toss & so on.

Shifty's right we won't see third parties do anything on either system that is very innovative wrt to technology that is unique to that platform. Developer's are going to code to the least common denominator in most instances. Its one of the few points that was being argued coming out of E3 a year ago that I can agree with. In many ways gaming is not progressing in areas outside of graphics at a similar pace and its potentially bad for the industry.

True but having 2 of the 3 consoles having Gyro/Touch controls might change the landscape. Gyro controls could really add to first person shooter games so if the market share is 10 million Wii U , 10 million Xbox One & 18 million PS4 at the beginning of 2015 why wouldn't the next Call of Duty enhance their gameplay with the added gyro controls for a install base of 28 million vs the 10 million that can't use it?

 

[onQ]

The ps4 will be the odd man out, since the install bases of the other two will be pretty similar halfway through the generation, bomb crash

seriously its the wii u

as the seasame street song goes, one of these things aint like the others ...

Did you read the OP?

Yes the Wii U will be the odd man out when it come to graphics that's pretty well known but Xbox One could end up the odd man out when it come to gameplay & PS4 might end up the odd man out in some situation even though it's hard to see it right now.


Last generation Wii was the odd man out when it came to graphics but because of it's controller it had a market all to it's self for years & by the end of the generation PS3 & Xbox 360 had to adjust & try to get a piece of that market.


You never know when something like Just Dance is going to happen.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

This is why I mentioned the change in the gaming market. Every big game isn't going to come from a PC/Console background some will come from the mobile market. Having the right controls to accommodate these different control schemes could result in getting the next Temple Run, Flappy Bird , Candy Crush , Angry Bird , Ridiculous Fishing, Cut The Rope , Paper Toss & so on.

If you're talking about devs targeting an unconventional input format, Kinect is the most likely place to get something new IMO. Ports of mobile concepts just aren't going to work well. I also count every one of your examples as gimmicky and soon forgotten. Sure, someone could create a game on PS4 where you 'throw' the controller to throw a virtual object, but it's the sort of feature that'd be amusing for 5 minutes and then gamers will move on to real games.

True but having 2 of the 3 consoles having Gyro/Touch controls might change the landscape. Gyro controls could really add to first person shooter games so if the market share is 10 million Wii U , 10 million Xbox One & 18 million PS4 at the beginning of 2015 why wouldn't the next Call of Duty enhance their gameplay with the added gyro controls for a install base of 28 million vs the 10 million that can't use it?

Because it's a feature that 1/4 of the audience can't use (and I doubt many devs targeting PS4+XB1+PC are also going to be targeting Wii U as it'd be a major porting effort. You should probably add 18 million PS4s to 10 million XB1s and 10+ million PCs, making the PS4 features the minority) and which doesn't clearly make the game better.

If devs start to actually use these additional features, then we can start talking about one console being at a disadvantage. Until then, it's a hypothetical derived from a hypothetical. The only real constant is that devs don't like targeting fringe features that can't be used across all their target platforms, at least not beyond the most irrelevant gimmick that the game can happily do without.

 

[Nesh]

If you're talking about devs targeting an unconventional input format, Kinect is the most likely place to get something new IMO. Ports of mobile concepts just aren't going to work well. I also count every one of your examples as gimmicky and soon forgotten. Sure, someone could create a game on PS4 where you 'throw' the controller to throw a virtual object, but it's the sort of feature that'd be amusing for 5 minutes and then gamers will move on to real games.

To me Tearaway's ideas were more than a gimmick. They are important aspects of the gameplay. Its no more gimmick than the touch and gyroscope implementations in the Vita version. I welcome this and I am happy that the devs found creative ideas.

I personally have more hopes on the DS4. The camera idea has repeatedly proven it doesnt bring many fascinating practical uses and a great deal of its implementations can be replicated without a camera.

The DS4 brought multiple opportunities. It can work just like the Move controller without the need of the camera. I was playing Blue Estate recently and the Dual Shock worked just like the Move. The touch pad gets some interesting uses and it doesnt need to be the epitome of gameplay. Its the combination/complimentary use with the other inputs that matters. The light bar and speaker offer additional feedback to the experience. The controller also has the ability to detect your voice commands.

In fact since the the DS4 can also work like a motion controller without sacrificing the traditional inputs means that many ideas that could have been implemented with Kinect in tandem with the controller can be applied on the DS4.

Very importantly the DS4 is always the primary controller and all the extras are part of that primary device which means the developers know the players are using it and hence devs are more likely to try and use some of the features.

It is a more complete and more robust controller than the DS3. It is probably the most complete controller available from all the input devices that competitors have offered. I am sure now that the industry got more ideas and more experience with motion controls the DS4 motion controls are more likely to see uses than remain abandoned like the DS3

 

[onQ]

If you're talking about devs targeting an unconventional input format, Kinect is the most likely place to get something new IMO. Ports of mobile concepts just aren't going to work well. I also count every one of your examples as gimmicky and soon forgotten. Sure, someone could create a game on PS4 where you 'throw' the controller to throw a virtual object, but it's the sort of feature that'd be amusing for 5 minutes and then gamers will move on to real games.

Because it's a feature that 1/4 of the audience can't use (and I doubt many devs targeting PS4+XB1+PC are also going to be targeting Wii U as it'd be a major porting effort. You should probably add 18 million PS4s to 10 million XB1s and 10+ million PCs, making the PS4 features the minority) and which doesn't clearly make the game better.

If devs start to actually use these additional features, then we can start talking about one console being at a disadvantage. Until then, it's a hypothetical derived from a hypothetical. The only real constant is that devs don't like targeting fringe features that can't be used across all their target platforms, at least not beyond the most irrelevant gimmick that the game can happily do without.

I don't remember PC games being built around a dual analog control scheme & Gyro controls are closer to Mouse controls than analog sticks are. Then there are people who play these PC games on their laptops using a touch pad so that 10+ million that you added to the dual analog side can just as easily be added to the gyro & touch side.


These are not jump up & down wiggle wiggle wiggle control interfaces they are precise & intuitive means of controlling a game.

 

[onQ]

To me Tearaway's ideas were more than a gimmick. They are important aspects of the gameplay. Its no more gimmick than the touch and gyroscope implementations in the Vita version. I welcome this and I am happy that the devs found creative ideas.

I personally have more hopes on the DS4. The camera idea has repeatedly proven it doesnt bring many fascinating practical uses and a great deal of its implementations can be replicated without a camera.

The DS4 brought multiple opportunities. It can work just like the Move controller without the need of the camera. I was playing Blue Estate recently and the Dual Shock worked just like the Move. The touch pad gets some interesting uses and it doesnt need to be the epitome of gameplay. Its the combination/complimentary use with the other inputs that matters. The light bar and speaker offer additional feedback to the experience. The controller also has the ability to detect your voice commands.

In fact since the the DS4 can also work like a motion controller without sacrificing the traditional inputs means that many ideas that could have been implemented with Kinect in tandem with the controller can be applied on the DS4.

Very importantly the DS4 is always the primary controller and all the extras are part of that primary device which means the developers know the players are using it and hence devs are more likely to try and use some of the features.

It is a more complete and more robust controller than the DS3. It is probably the most complete controller available from all the input devices that competitors have offered. I am sure now that the industry got more ideas and more experience with motion controls the DS4 motion controls are more likely to see uses than remain abandoned like the DS3

Exactly! Plus the control interfaces are mature now & Gyros / Touchpads are at a point where they can become second nature to use & they just work.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

To me Tearaway's ideas were more than a gimmick.

Tearaway's first party.

 

[onQ]

Tearaway's first party.

I think he was using Tearaway to point out that the controls are not a gimmick.

Remember at one point FPS games wasn't a thing on consoles but after Nintendo added a analog stick to the N64 controller & over 7 million people bought Golden Eye. FPS became a big part of console gaming.
What if Star Wars was to make a fast paced rail shooter or podracing game that really make good use of these controls & it sell millions & other devs follow making games that use these features? would you still say the controls are just a gimmick?

 

[zed]

Did you read the OP?

Yes the Wii U will be the odd man out when it come to graphics

Mate, cpu/gpu power/storage/memory etc have huge influence on gameplay not just graphics

larger more complex worlds, physics, AI etc have changed from what we had in the spaceinvaders era due to the more powerful machines, its not only the graphics that have changed

 

[onQ]

Mate, cpu/gpu power/storage/memory etc have huge influence on gameplay not just graphics

larger more complex worlds, physics, AI etc have changed from what we had in the spaceinvaders era due to the more powerful machines, its not only the graphics that have changed

Not that it really matters to the point of this thread but Xbox One is somewhere around 3 or 4 times more powerful than the Wii U so cutting back the graphics of the Wii U game should enable it to achieve these same size worlds,physics ,AI etc relative to it's graphics.Running the game at 720P vs 1080P already free up the power by 2.25.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think he was using Tearaway to point out that the controls are not a gimmick.

I expect first party titles to make best use their input formats (although even then they can quickly abandon them). 3rd party games, the ones that'll straddle different machines, won't use alternative inputs in any significant way.

Remember at one point FPS games wasn't a thing on consoles but after Nintendo added a analog stick to the N64 controller & over 7 million people bought Golden Eye. FPS became a big part of console gaming.

That's a standard progression of the conventional controls. We had joysticks and thumbpads. Then we went thumbsticks, then dual thumbsticks. 2 DOF mapped to the digits is the standard that works well for gamers. Everything else has been pretty insignificant outside of a few fringe cases like Wii.

What if Star Wars was to make a fast paced rail shooter or podracing game that really make good use of these controls ...

Why would they make a game dependent on motion controls that can't be played on XB1 or PC? Why didn't they make that game last gen? (Warhawk had stellar motion steering just like a pod-racer)

Yes, if games move over to motion input on the controller, XB1 could be at a disadvantage. But that's a low probability scenario based on the past twenty years of games and input formats. At the very worst case, MS can update their controller so it's not like it'd spell the death of XB1. There are other, more important priorities to address ahead of the motion interface disparity.

 

[temesgen]

IMO the similarities between PS4 and XB1 probably leads to more generic development approaches to both platforms. Platform specific modifications have historically been pretty check box, after thoughts and that isn't likely to change anytime soon. First parties will do more with the tech bc that was already part of the idea to begin with.

 

[Nesh]

Now that I think about it, for third party developers to start using some features more is to have a clear winner. Something like the PS1 or PS2. If the PS4 becomes the same success, it will see a swarm of exclusives and devs wont need to have in mind the platform that lacks the features in such cases. It will allow the platfprm to set new norms

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If we get voluntary 3rd party exclusives, perhaps. I just don't see that happening by-and-large, unless the devs really do target an exclusive feature. Middleware is cross platform. Make you're PS4 game, and you can port it to PC for very little, and XB1 for a bit more. If for 10% investment you can reach a 25+% larger market, is makes sense.

I can see some devs going with a feature though to differentiate. eg. Sony's Rubber Duck game on PS3. That was bought because it was motion control. As a dev looking to make sales in a crowded market place, one way to stand out would be to offer a unique experience. You're more likely to get media coverage then. Thing with DS4's gyro control is that sixaxis allowed for similar and no-one went there. We had sixaxis bowling, for example. Using the controller for motion controls hasn't taken off, and I can't see much reason to think it will in future,