Wii U hardware discussion and investigation *rename

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I'm hearing a lot more negatives than positives, although I'm not following it closely. Nintenod are being coy as ever, which they've been with every piece of low-spec hardware they've released since DS.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-04-05-nintendo-responds-to-wii-u-power-reports

And that GI.biz article is reporting feedback from devs, whereas the best counters I've heard are either Pr weighted or unknown tipsters off GAF. Okay, I'm placing some faith in GI's ability to find reliable sources, and they may not have asked a large enough group of devs, but the impression I'm left with is very far from a certainty of greater performance as you believe.
 
I'm hearing a lot more negatives than positives, although I'm not following it closely. Nintenod are being coy as ever, which they've been with every piece of low-spec hardware they've released since DS.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-04-05-nintendo-responds-to-wii-u-power-reports

And that GI.biz article is reporting feedback from devs, whereas the best counters I've heard are either Pr weighted or unknown tipsters off GAF. Okay, I'm placing some faith in GI's ability to find reliable sources, and they may not have asked a large enough group of devs, but the impression I'm left with is very far from a certainty of greater performance as you believe.

The thing is, the positive remarks come from named, high profile devs, while negative comes from random, anonymouse "sources" - which are you more willing to believe? :)
 
I'm hearing a lot more negatives than positives, although I'm not following it closely. Nintenod are being coy as ever, which they've been with every piece of low-spec hardware they've released since DS.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-04-05-nintendo-responds-to-wii-u-power-reports

And that GI.biz article is reporting feedback from devs, whereas the best counters I've heard are either Pr weighted or unknown tipsters off GAF. Okay, I'm placing some faith in GI's ability to find reliable sources, and they may not have asked a large enough group of devs, but the impression I'm left with is very far from a certainty of greater performance as you believe.

Yep, out of all the consoles, only Ninty has the track record,skill..and balls...to load their next gen systems with hilariously poor hardware.i wasn't aware of the GC's 'duck taped' together, but anything they can skimp and save from the processors..and cover it over with a gimmick..the better...a sheep in wolves clothing..thats the best way to describe the recent hardware rumours...
 
The thing is, the positive remarks come from named, high profile devs, while negative comes from random, anonymouse "sources" - which are you more willing to believe? :)
I checked back through this thread before I hit the post button on that post. I could find a couple of positive remarks, from Mark Rein who was talking about what Wuu would be, and the Darksiders dev who seems to have been hoping for better and has now supposedly said it won't be very exciting. These anonymous voices are going through a professional game-industry website, and aren't just forum posts. And the public speakers tend to have to be cautious in what they say; devs tend to have to talk through anonymity for fear of negative reprisals, but I image that's less an issue if they want to say glowing things. Would any console company shut-up a loud mouth breaking NDA to say, "this is the greatest hardware ever!!!!"? Dunno, but I imagine them far more likely to shut up a dev saying, "this console isn't all that".
 
I'm hearing a lot more negatives than positives, although I'm not following it closely. Nintenod are being coy as ever, which they've been with every piece of low-spec hardware they've released since DS.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-04-05-nintendo-responds-to-wii-u-power-reports

And that GI.biz article is reporting feedback from devs, whereas the best counters I've heard are either Pr weighted or unknown tipsters off GAF. Okay, I'm placing some faith in GI's ability to find reliable sources, and they may not have asked a large enough group of devs, but the impression I'm left with is very far from a certainty of greater performance as you believe.

That Eurogamer piece is a regurgitation of the GI.biz article. Regardless, it would take an extreme level of either magic and sorcery or complete incompetence for either a CPU (considering it's OoO) or a GPU designed in the last few years to produce results which are *below* RSX or even Xenos.

Nobody in their right mind would expect a full generational leap from the Wii U, but these recent reports are bizarre.
 
I checked back through this thread before I hit the post button on that post. I could find a couple of positive remarks, from Mark Rein who was talking about what Wuu would be, and the Darksiders dev who seems to have been hoping for better and has now supposedly said it won't be very exciting. These anonymous voices are going through a professional game-industry website, and aren't just forum posts. And the public speakers tend to have to be cautious in what they say; devs tend to have to talk through anonymity for fear of negative reprisals, but I image that's less an issue if they want to say glowing things. Would any console company shut-up a loud mouth breaking NDA to say, "this is the greatest hardware ever!!!!"? Dunno, but I imagine them far more likely to shut up a dev saying, "this console isn't all that".

Not sure of the original sources but these should be direct quotes:
THQ: “WiiU is just alot more powerful than current HD consoles it does 1080p very easy.”

Epic: “It will do things current HD consoles simply cant do its going to be a powerful box.”

Crytek: “WiiU devkits are very powerful,the specs are very good”

Vigil Games: “We had the game at the same level as high end pc version in a matter of days and a few lines of code got the game up and running on tablet in 5 mins.”

EA: "Wii U is not a transitional platform, it is a true next generation system."
 
A lot can change in a year though, and there's always a pressure to rim any company who's products, services or licences you depend on to make money. Plus the best way to attract a mountain of fanboy wrath is to speak honestly about the strengths and weaknesses of their favourite device!

Regardless, it would take an extreme level of either magic and sorcery or complete incompetence for either a CPU (considering it's OoO) or a GPU designed in the last few years to produce results which are *below* RSX or even Xenos.

All it would take is appropriate power and cost constraints. No magic, sorcery or incompetence required. AMD and Intel both put out CPUs and GPUs that fall well below the 360 in the millions every year. Even today.

There's got to be a reason that the 360S with it's 45nm processor and small amount of edram still needs a big chunk of metal and a 92mm fan to keep it cool (quietly). No doubt Nintendo can get much better performance per watt (particularly from the CPU) but if you're working with significantly less power you can only do so much.
 
THQ: “WiiU is just alot more powerful than current HD consoles it does 1080p very easy.”

This interview was likely a total fabrication on a no-name website.. 1080p is not "very easy" on current-gen games for this system. That has been hinted by pretty much everybody else

Im pissing my self reading all these more recent 'leaks' we were talking about 800 shaders..around january time...it just gets worse and worse.

It might have had 640 ALUs at some point but clocked reeeally low. So all those stories were really off
 
This interview was likely a total fabrication on a no-name website.. 1080p is not "very easy" on current-gen games for this system. That has been hinted by pretty much everybody else
Links? Only the "less powerfull than xb360/ps3" bs-rumors floating up last couple days seem to suggest that for what i've been following
 
The thing is, the positive remarks come from named, high profile devs, while negative comes from random, anonymouse "sources" - which are you more willing to believe? :)

People are generally more willing to believe the people saying what they want to hear, regardless of its validity.

The GI.biz article was a little sketchy since I don't believe a knowledgeable developer would phrase things in the way that they reported, but it could have been an error in communication. The day after a different article with similarly sketchy quotes was published on the same website by the same author.

However the quotes people are trotting out to support the "considerably more powerful than PS360" stance are either equally suspect, ancient, generously interpreted, or from business types who aren't going to have a clue anyway. Most recent quotes I've seen are fairly noncommittal, which makes sense given that prerelease hardware isn't something people other than the manufacturer really have any business talking about anyway.

At the end of the day everyone's game is different and everyone is going to run into different idiosyncrasies of the hardware that they like or dislike, so widely varying estimations are to be expected in the first few years. People seem to think of power as a binary thing, but the most likely situation is that a machine seen as "on par" with PS360 will be better than them at some things and worse than them at others.

Then again, it doesn't really matter. I was still seeing "Wii is actually as powerful as Xbox 360 but there's a third party developer conspiracy to make bad games because they don't like the motion controls" on fan sites in 2009. People still have this idea that the PS3 is massively more powerful than the Xbox 360 and all the cross-platform games are worse on PS3 because of some conspiracy. People will believe that they want to believe, and facts have little place in the realm of console fanboyism.
 
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That Eurogamer piece is a regurgitation of the GI.biz article.
Except it adds a resopnse from Nintendo, which is, "Specs don't matter. It's all about the games and experience." That's the same coy stance they have taken with other 'underspec'd' hardware, and very different from the pre-Wii Nintendo that bragged about system power the same as everyone else IIRC.
Regardless, it would take an extreme level of either magic and sorcery or complete incompetence for either a CPU (considering it's OoO) or a GPU designed in the last few years to produce results which are *below* RSX or even Xenos.
I point you to this post of mine.
"But there are always logical justifications for any given spec of hardware when considered as a business."
 
Not sure of the original sources but these should be direct quotes:
THQ: “WiiU is just alot more powerful than current HD consoles it does 1080p very easy.”

Epic: “It will do things current HD consoles simply cant do its going to be a powerful box.”

Crytek: “WiiU devkits are very powerful,the specs are very good”

Vigil Games: “We had the game at the same level as high end pc version in a matter of days and a few lines of code got the game up and running on tablet in 5 mins.”

EA: "Wii U is not a transitional platform, it is a true next generation system."
Some of these are old, and some are subjective. There's not too much of substance. THQ's 1080p comment and Vigil's are the only pointers to decent performance. The question then becomes, how do you resolve such starkly contrasting rumours? How can the system be very powerful, easily able to do 1080p or PC high settings, and yet also be no better than PS360? Because these positions are pretty irreconcilable, we end up having to pick which set of rumours to place our faith in. I tend to favour the newer rumours as being more accurate to what the final box will be, when from trustworthy sources.
 
Some of these are old, and some are subjective. There's not too much of substance. THQ's 1080p comment and Vigil's are the only pointers to decent performance. The question then becomes, how do you resolve such starkly contrasting rumours? How can the system be very powerful, easily able to do 1080p or PC high settings, and yet also be no better than PS360? Because these positions are pretty irreconcilable, we end up having to pick which set of rumours to place our faith in. I tend to favour the newer rumours as being more accurate to what the final box will be, when from trustworthy sources.

Are "anonymous devs" trustworthy sources? Do the sites spreading 'em originally have even long and good standing reputation behind them?

Considering Crytek has been complaining about power of the consoles IIRC and requesting more more more, their statement should actually mean it indeed is powerfull [at least compared to todays consoles]
 
Are "anonymous devs" trustworthy sources? Do the sites spreading 'em originally have even long and good standing reputation behind them?
In the case of GamesIndustry.biz, yes, I consider them having a decent reputation in a way I wouldn't maybe IGN.

Considering Crytek has been complaining about power of the consoles IIRC and requesting more more more, their statement should actually mean it indeed is powerfull [at least compared to todays consoles]
You're right, as he's referring to actual devkits, and not just 'Wii U should be very good'.
 
The quote from Gearbox (in Nintendo Gamer magazine) "They’re late in the cycle so they’ve got this really great processor." It seems like they are saying it's competing favorably with the last gen, but they don't even considered it next gen. It's a weird PR move.
 
Then again, it doesn't really matter. I was still seeing "Wii is actually as powerful as Xbox 360 but there's a third party developer conspiracy to make bad games because they don't like the motion controls" on fan sites in 2009. People still have this idea that the PS3 is massively more powerful than the Xbox 360 and all the cross-platform games are worse on PS3 because of some conspiracy. People will believe that they want to believe, and facts have little place in the realm of console fanboyism.

I never get tired of just how inaccurate rumors based on factual information get.

When IGN leaked the GameCube specs they had a copy of the final development manual, as a data source it doesn't get much more error free, the resulting article was still wildly inaccurate. Largely because Matt who wrote the article wanted the GameCube to be more powerful, so he drew conclusions from unrelated statements in the manual and published those, under the guise of distilling the information he distorted it.

Over analyzing quotes is a recipe for reading into them what you want them to say, rather than what the person originally intended.
 
First off, this board is far too educated to presume that developing a console GPU is like shopping at Newegg. Or even determining current component prices, if it was AMD/ATI, Genyo Takeda (IR&D) would not have spent 2yrs.+ in the development process on the Wii U's graphics processor. I realize we are attempting to establish a power as well as an architectural baseline, but this will be an amalgamation of processor capabilities that will yield a very custom proprietary chip. Somewhat defying the current DX metric. (to a degree of course)

What I mean when I say that is this, we cannot assume because it's based off of, or similar to gpu architecture "X," that it is incapable of "Y." Y equaling effects such as tessellation, IBL, real-time GI, deferred rendering, etc. There are certain visual aspects, such as lighting, that are very important to Nintendo. I have heard that, much like the Flipper, Nintendo has incorporated at least partially a portion of the same design philosophies into the Wii U chipset. Features that “automagically” appear during shader code implementation. A post from my early days regarding the GC’s architecture on B3D:

"However, as mentioned above, a couple of features where added in automagically already, like self-shadowing and tinting for example."

"Per-object self-shadowing can be realized quite nicely on the Nintendo Gamecube. The benefit of doing self-shadowing on a per object basis is that one does not need to be concerned so much with precision."

"One should note that during the shader build many features are activated dynamically. For instance, if an object should get tinted a color multiplication is added to the final output color whatever shader was setup before."

"The results of global lighting can be computed in three different ways: per vertex, per pixel using emboss mapping, and per pixel using bump mapping. All three of these methods come in two variants one with self-shadowing and one without."--Florian Sauer & Sigmund Vik http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20.../sauer_pfv.htm

Also 8 light values came at a very negligible performance cost, because Flipper computed light values in parallel to UV generation. It’s these types of “hardwired” like effects Nintendo I believe has carried over to make modern shader effects with a subset of fixed feature functionality . I’m simply providing examples as I do not know to what extent overall it is, or can be incorporated. (esp. with the gpu being of a modern design) I was told that lighting behaved in this manner, & that lighting was a point of emphasis. As always with a secondhand source, you must always be cautious not to take it as gospel. (though I trust this source, Nintendo's NDAs are the most binding)

Nintendo did make certain alterations to their gpu based upon various 3rd party input, a first. Usually, they tend to develop their gpus & platforms with just simply ATI/Nintendo engineering, consultation, & guidance. Designed around their evolving software strengths, & "the natural flow of the industry."-Genyo Takeda Yes, I am referring to all those benchmark tests Nintendo ran on 3rd party engines for optimization on Wii U hardware.

But make no mistake, Nintendo's footprint is definitely here. You will see a marked performance difference in their proprietary engines, as well as close 3rd parties, & exclusive titles. (UbiSoft, Capcom, etc.) Also, ARM may also be providing their DSP component solution. The nameless devs that are claiming inferiority to the current generation of consoles are either inept, or working with middleware that is still yet unoptimized for the differing Wii U architecture.

Kind of confirms what I heard and sounds like a GPU wsippel and I "designed" based on that.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=36485259&postcount=12053
 
People are generally more willing to believe the people saying what they want to hear, regardless of its validity.

The GI.biz article was a little sketchy since I don't believe a knowledgeable developer would phrase things in the way that they reported, but it could have been an error in communication. The day after a different article with similarly sketchy quotes was published on the same website by the same author.

However the quotes people are trotting out to support the "considerably more powerful than PS360" stance are either equally suspect, ancient, generously interpreted, or from business types who aren't going to have a clue anyway. Most recent quotes I've seen are fairly noncommittal, which makes sense given that prerelease hardware isn't something people other than the manufacturer really have any business talking about anyway.

At the end of the day everyone's game is different and everyone is going to run into different idiosyncrasies of the hardware that they like or dislike, so widely varying estimations are to be expected in the first few years. People seem to think of power as a binary thing, but the most likely situation is that a machine seen as "on par" with PS360 will be better than them at some things and worse than them at others.

Then again, it doesn't really matter. I was still seeing "Wii is actually as powerful as Xbox 360 but there's a third party developer conspiracy to make bad games because they don't like the motion controls" on fan sites in 2009. People still have this idea that the PS3 is massively more powerful than the Xbox 360 and all the cross-platform games are worse on PS3 because of some conspiracy. People will believe that they want to believe, and facts have little place in the realm of console fanboyism.

You are a gentleman & a scholar, preparing for another lengthy post.
 
So if Nintendo has actually decided to go with a special GPU wouldn't that create a situation almost like the Wii when the other companies come with their next-gen consoles?
Couldn't it create a similar negative effect because if you wanted to take advantage of the whole GPU it would require you to create special code or even build the whole engine up from scratch or do you think these effects could be incorperated like a post process effect which would make implementation alot easier?

But I guess it's safe to asume large 3rd party engines(Unreal/Crytek) would use these features in their engine seeing Nintendno are testing and maybe developing on these engines themselves so they could ship out the engine when someone aqquires a dev-kit. Or is this ludicrous thinking?

Also other than GI what kind of things would the fixed functions be? What could we expect?
 
Fixed function GI :?:

I don't know what you guys (Li Mu Bai, etc) are on about, but what relevance is there supposed to be now? We've moved away from fixed function/"hardwired shaders"/HW T&L for good reason.
 
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