When will they send out PS3 dev kits?
- Thread starter Jabjabs
- Start date
Aren't you looking at this just a little bit overly pesimistic? You're basically suggesting they will throw out a programming paradigm shift along with leaving it completely barebones in every way just to make sure it's harder to use?
I mean even PS2 wasn't that bad off at the start, they did some ground work, no matter how poor most of it was.
Besides, if the thing will really run at 4ghz you might as well run general purpose code off a single core, it'd still be monumentally faster then R5900 ever could be
And graphics tasks better have some basic abstraction for task distributing available at the start (it's not exactly rocket science to do that for vertex and pixel processing), if they think people want to start handscheduling out of the box they're idiots, and then some.
Completely off-topic, but I didn't want to create a whole new thread:
Marconelly, I noticed you asking about Gekioh at Gaming-Age. Aika's posted a nice listing of some SHMUPs over at the DAM-Nation boards at Shadow-Corp.com, and there's occasionally some decent discussion there among fans.
In case you're interested:
http://www.shadow-corp.com/dam/
Marconelly, I noticed you asking about Gekioh at Gaming-Age. Aika's posted a nice listing of some SHMUPs over at the DAM-Nation boards at Shadow-Corp.com, and there's occasionally some decent discussion there among fans.
In case you're interested:
http://www.shadow-corp.com/dam/
randycat99
Veteran
MfA said:
My point was that this RenderWare solution was already under works, specifically for 1st gen PS3 development. As it is only something I read posted at another forum, I'm sure anybody here would have better information on it than I. Just thought I'd mention it to stimulate more discussion.
Panajev2001a
Veteran
Fafalada... with all the feedback on early PS2 development they have received, their own testing with the GScube and experience they have gained with other projects ( DX9 through SOE, Stanford Shading Language, etc... ), I do not think they will do something that deserve the status of "idiot and some"
marconelly!
Veteran
Pana, what is SOE, and what experience have they gained about it?
Panajev2001a
Veteran
Sony Online Entertainment.... I think Everquest II and the expansions that will come will follow DX upgrade path and I do not think Ever Quest II is using DX9 features right now, but since SOE is doing PC development and will keep doing it, they must have been doing some R&D work with DX9...
speng:
> They want to be able to be in the position of at least releasing the PS3
> in late 2004, early 2005 in Japan just in case Microsoft puts forth an
> Xbox 2 early.
I doubt M$ will launch early. First of all it has yet to even decide which companies will supply the major components for the system, secondly it's a far more ambitious project than the first Xbox and thirdly M$ has never indicated that it is planning to launch before 2005/2006. It also needs to have software ready which is going to be a huge challenge for anyone. And finally Sony and Nintendo will in all likelihood launch in Japan first giving M$ a window of opportunity in the US.
Fafalada:
> I mean even PS2 wasn't that bad off at the start
Perhaps not but I'm sure we can agree that the PS3 will be several times more complex. I mean with early PS2 games you might've been able to get away with just using the CPU but if they do the same with the PS3 it's gonna look like crap compared to pretty much anything else out at the time (be it Xbox 2, Cube 2 or your average PC).
Panajev2001a:
> I do not think they will do something that deserve the status of "idiot
> and some
Designing an API is one thing. Making it interact with the hardware is another. Much of this work is in the hands of IBM and by the sound of it they still haven't come up with a real solution yet.
Also, as much as Sony has learned with the PS2 it is still harder to develop for than Xbox and Cube.
> They want to be able to be in the position of at least releasing the PS3
> in late 2004, early 2005 in Japan just in case Microsoft puts forth an
> Xbox 2 early.
I doubt M$ will launch early. First of all it has yet to even decide which companies will supply the major components for the system, secondly it's a far more ambitious project than the first Xbox and thirdly M$ has never indicated that it is planning to launch before 2005/2006. It also needs to have software ready which is going to be a huge challenge for anyone. And finally Sony and Nintendo will in all likelihood launch in Japan first giving M$ a window of opportunity in the US.
Fafalada:
> I mean even PS2 wasn't that bad off at the start
Perhaps not but I'm sure we can agree that the PS3 will be several times more complex. I mean with early PS2 games you might've been able to get away with just using the CPU but if they do the same with the PS3 it's gonna look like crap compared to pretty much anything else out at the time (be it Xbox 2, Cube 2 or your average PC).
Panajev2001a:
> I do not think they will do something that deserve the status of "idiot
> and some
Designing an API is one thing. Making it interact with the hardware is another. Much of this work is in the hands of IBM and by the sound of it they still haven't come up with a real solution yet.
Also, as much as Sony has learned with the PS2 it is still harder to develop for than Xbox and Cube.
Personally I am still in wait and see mode on this one - I'm not convinced either way just yet.
Ehhm, I think some of you are grossly overestimating R59k, or have a selective memory about early titles. Even the launch titles were easily at least doubling average DC game polycounts, and R59k alone would be lucky to double good PSOne polycounts, if that...
I think the question here would be, what do you call "cpu" in PS3, if the said patent closely reflects the actual hw. And moreover refer back to what I said about "idiots" and managing of those cores on graphics side of things.
And I still think graphics api is the "trivial" part of this concept. The messy thing is the (in)efficient execution of general purpose code
IIRC the only 1st gen title that didn't use VU code was Tekken3 Team Tag (Sony used to mentioned it as an example of how much better things would look IF you used them).
Fafalada, I think your being a little harsh on the R5900 (without VU's), I'd say roughly comparible to the DC's SH4. The Sega SH4 had the nice dotproduct instructions but the R5900 was clocked a 1/3rd faster. DC and PS2 CPU (without VU's) are roughly equivilent if you ask me (I worked on both a few years ago).
Fafalada, I think your being a little harsh on the R5900 (without VU's), I'd say roughly comparible to the DC's SH4. The Sega SH4 had the nice dotproduct instructions but the R5900 was clocked a 1/3rd faster. DC and PS2 CPU (without VU's) are roughly equivilent if you ask me (I worked on both a few years ago).
DeanoC said:
weird, because i thought that u pretty much have to use at least VU1 if u want to show something on screen.... of course using it properly is another matter altogether...
and also makes me wonder why Tekken4 (apart from the very pretty backgrounds) isn't that much better than Tekken Tag... actually if you ask me, i thought the characters had more polys in Tekken Tag... i mean, even though TekkenTag had static backgrounds, they were still made of polygons, and a lot of them if you ask me. but to be honest i haven't played Tekken4 that much (however i spent over 200 hours on tekkenTag) so i might very well be mistaken here...
oh, and i haven't bought Tekken4 cause i chose VF4 at the time and now i'm waiting for VF4EVO and Soul Calibur 2.
london-boy said:DeanoC said:
weird, because i thought that u pretty much have to use at least VU1 if u want to show something on screen.... of course using it properly is another matter altogether...
and also makes me wonder why Tekken4 (apart from the very pretty backgrounds) isn't that much better than Tekken Tag... actually if you ask me, i thought the characters had more polys in Tekken Tag... i mean, even though TekkenTag had static backgrounds, they were still made of polygons, and a lot of them if you ask me. but to be honest i haven't played Tekken4 that much (however i spent over 200 hours on tekkenTag) so i might very well be mistaken here...
oh, and i haven't bought Tekken4 cause i chose VF4 at the time and now i'm waiting for VF4EVO and Soul Calibur 2.
VF4 EVO is available but the supposed 480p mode was not there. Don't know when they cut that out. I didn't take out the old one (VF4) to compare, I didn't notice significant difference in game.
May be I will notice something later on after playing more, but I am concentrating on Dynasty Warrior 4 and FF X-2 at the moment.
maskrider said:london-boy said:DeanoC said:
weird, because i thought that u pretty much have to use at least VU1 if u want to show something on screen.... of course using it properly is another matter altogether...
and also makes me wonder why Tekken4 (apart from the very pretty backgrounds) isn't that much better than Tekken Tag... actually if you ask me, i thought the characters had more polys in Tekken Tag... i mean, even though TekkenTag had static backgrounds, they were still made of polygons, and a lot of them if you ask me. but to be honest i haven't played Tekken4 that much (however i spent over 200 hours on tekkenTag) so i might very well be mistaken here...
oh, and i haven't bought Tekken4 cause i chose VF4 at the time and now i'm waiting for VF4EVO and Soul Calibur 2.
VF4 EVO is available but the supposed 480p mode was not there. Don't know when they cut that out. I didn't take out the old one (VF4) to compare, I didn't notice significant difference in game.
May be I will notice something later on after playing more, but I am concentrating on Dynasty Warrior 4 and FF X-2 at the moment.
RUB IT IN DON'T WORRY ABOUT US.............. yeah yeah, RUB IT IN alright..
He, enjoy it. I really can't wait for FF X-2 to come out overhere... BTW; VF4 Evo.. how's the flickering? Any improvements there? The horrendous flickering was the reason why I never bought the first part.
LondonBoy,
Yep, you are correct, Tekken 4's characters have less polygons - although textures should be well improved and much more going on. Personally, I also prefered TTT by the graphics though...
Phil said:
yeah yeah, RUB IT IN alright..
BTW; VF4 Evo.. how's the flickering? Any improvements there? The horrendous flickering was the reason why I never bought the first part.
LondonBoy,
Yep, you are correct, Tekken 4's characters have less polygons - although textures should be well improved and much more going on. Personally, I also prefered TTT by the graphics though...
EXACTLY my thoughts.... most of it must be psychological though, i mean when i first saw Tekken Tag years ago i was really WOWed, i could not believe how beautiful it was...... but then DOA3 cmae out, and VF4 (arcade) came out, and by the time Tekken4 came out i was already spoiled by superior looking games....
Phil said:
yeah yeah, RUB IT IN alright..
BTW; VF4 Evo.. how's the flickering? Any improvements there? The horrendous flickering was the reason why I never bought the first part.
LondonBoy,
Yep, you are correct, Tekken 4's characters have less polygons - although textures should be well improved and much more going on. Personally, I also prefered TTT by the graphics though...
I didn't notice much flickering even in the first one, I use a pretty decent video scaler (not available in the market at the moment) with a monitor for video and games, haven't connected the PS2 to TVs for such a long time.
And recently, I am considering to buy a UK PAL PS2 with The Getaway and to prepare myself for the earlier Europe release of Silent Hill 3.
maskrider said:Phil said:
yeah yeah, RUB IT IN alright..
BTW; VF4 Evo.. how's the flickering? Any improvements there? The horrendous flickering was the reason why I never bought the first part.
LondonBoy,
Yep, you are correct, Tekken 4's characters have less polygons - although textures should be well improved and much more going on. Personally, I also prefered TTT by the graphics though...
I didn't notice much flickering even in the first one, I use a pretty decent video scaler (not available in the market at the moment) with a monitor for video and games, haven't connected the PS2 to TVs for such a long time.
AGAIN... RUB IT IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
still, i have a blaze VGA adaptor which actually REALLY impressed me on the game it actually works properly, not to mention beautiful progressive scan compatible games.... will have to try it out with VF4 on day to see what comes up...
london-boy said:
There is a link between R5900 and GS (IIRC Path 3? Haven't used a PS2 dev kit for a while...). Nobody every used it when you had VU1 but its possible that alot of TTT was developed before VU1 actually worked.
The thing about release titles is most of the production is done with non-production hardware (if your lucky to get hardware
). I've been told by a few devs who did a PS2 release title that there were ALOT of bugs in the VU hardware in the pre-production phase of PS2, so they didn't use it that much hence the massive increase in quality of post-release titles.DeanoC said:london-boy said:
There is a link between R5900 and GS (IIRC Path 3? Haven't used a PS2 dev kit for a while...). Nobody every used it when you had VU1 but its possible that alot of TTT was developed before VU1 actually worked.
The thing about release titles is most of the production is done with non-production hardware (if your lucky to get hardware
YEAH if i remember correctly Path3 is the link between the EE and GS that doesn't touch the VU1... some people said textures could be streamed through the Path3 without messing with the VU1, leaving it free to do other stuff, but i'm not sure how accurate this info is...
someone around might be able to explain this better than i do
COUGH::FAF::COUGH::ARCHIE::COUGH::COUGH 5900 on it's own...
I suspect that any claims of not using VU1 on early titles would imply that a least VU0 was being used as a coprocessor - effectively imitating the DC methods...
If you only used the FPU for transforms you would end up taking 12 cycles for vertex transformation - a lot slower than the VU code, but not too shabby... ( You could transform over 20M verts/second just on the CPU core in theory... )
I suspect that any claims of not using VU1 on early titles would imply that a least VU0 was being used as a coprocessor - effectively imitating the DC methods...
If you only used the FPU for transforms you would end up taking 12 cycles for vertex transformation - a lot slower than the VU code, but not too shabby... ( You could transform over 20M verts/second just on the CPU core in theory... )
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