What can Sony do about Japan?

[PatrickL]

I think it is due to the nature of this forum but I don't understand that mantra: Higher graphics = better games. If you are a gamer, while graphics are nice, they are not the main reason for people to buy games. We had that debate on PC with EQ2 vs WoW for exemple and we know the result.
While PS3 has more advanced hardware than the WII, that does not mean better games.
If you have a look at the PS3 commercials and the Nintendo commercials, which one shows more fun playing ?

 

[quest55720]

Where did I mention how much money Nintendo makes? I bet Nintendo is willing to make profit to offset the GC era and not willing to cut the price soon.

It's odd that you praise Nintendo while dismissing their appeal to non-gamers. Blu-ray or DVD is not a "cool little extra" but it's one of the biggest non-game applications that appeal to those who don't play RPGs and shooters.

Until the average person cares about blue ray play back it is a cool little extra. DVD play back right now is meaningless as people have DVD players on every tv in the house thanks to the 30 dollar dvd player. I think it is going to be a very big up hill battle for either hd-dvd or blue ray to get the average person to care enough to pay a premium. For the average person there was a lot more and better reasons to upgrade from vhs to dvd than dvd to hd. Most people will not see enough of a difference on thier 1000 dollar hd-tv to warrent paying a premium over DVD. I personally think dvds upscaled on my 42 inch 720p tv looks good enough for now. I was much more excited about dvd because for many reasons including rewinding and degration of tapes over time.

Nintendo made money in the GC era because they did not sell any hardware at a loss and sold 10s of millions of first party games.

 

[Deusp]

They're called ps2's and yes the functionality of the ps2 was deemd quite acceptable -fyi.

For last gen. Not this one. I hope you don't buy the Nintendo's argument that next-gen is just the same game with better graphics.

Never said xb360 owners agree or disagree, just the 100m+ ps2 owners.

They can change their minds too.

True. And next on the list is Wii sales. In third place would be ps2 sales and somewhere down the line ... ps3 sales.

It's not dominance. Exclude first party games and Wii looks pretty weak indeed.

Sure it can happen. Never said it couldn't. Just that trends are not supporting your theories. Wake me when something of relevance occurs substantiating anything resembling current parity beween ps3 and Wii before you start talking of ps3 overtaking Wii in the region though.

Priorities.

Gotta walk before you can run.

I'm not making the hard claims here about who's winning. However, I will point out that the Wii has lost a lot of buzz. Go to the games board here, and you'll see Wii is hardly getting mentioned at all, due to being displaced by next-gen games. Worse, there are precious few games coming out for it that are exciting, and the game announcements being made are mostly ignored. Maybe I'm wrong and the buzz is just not part of the "hardcore" gamer group, but I find it hard to believe the Wii is going to go far on Wii Sports alone.

 

[quest55720]

For last gen. Not this one. I hope you don't buy the Nintendo's argument that next-gen is just the same game with better graphics.



They can change their minds too.



It's not dominance. Exclude first party games and Wii looks pretty weak indeed.



I'm not making the hard claims here about who's winning. However, I will point out that the Wii has lost a lot of buzz. Go to the games board here, and you'll see Wii is hardly getting mentioned at all, due to being displaced by next-gen games. Worse, there are precious few games coming out for it that are exciting, and the game announcements being made are mostly ignored. Maybe I'm wrong and the buzz is just not part of the "hardcore" gamer group, but I find it hard to believe the Wii is going to go far on Wii Sports alone.

People are still lining up weekly at targets CC and best buys for a chance to buy a Wii. The Wii is sold out around the world. I don't think the buzz has died down with the casual gamers. You are right Wii sports buzz will die down eventually but that does not mean there won't be a game to replace it for mainstreem appeal. Nintendo is not in a postion where they need another game right now but need to get supply up. I am sure nintendo has other things coming that could be almost as big as Wii sports. Things like a mario party, Wii fitness, Wii music heck Wii sports 2 will show up some time soon I would imagine. Then nintendo can try and port over popular DS stuff like nintendogs and brain training I am sure that is the reason of the mic on each Wiimote. I think nintendo has a 12-18 month window to get the game line up rolling. Kind of like the PS2 had a ton of early momentum that bought sony time to get the games out the Wii is in a similar situation.

 

[Corwin_B]

I'm not making the hard claims here about who's winning. However, I will point out that the Wii has lost a lot of buzz. Go to the games board here, and you'll see Wii is hardly getting mentioned at all, due to being displaced by next-gen games.

Because the games board of B3D is representative of the market as a whole ? B3D forum is very tech-centric, so it's obvious that technologically-impressive games get most of the attention. Hardly representative of the industry as a whole.

 

[oli2]

... I hope you don't buy the Nintendo's argument that next-gen is just the same game with better graphics.

Why not ?
The fact you will have more or better AI / Physics / graphics will change what to the fact you have to use the very same "D-PAD" to make your character move ?
(In fact in some genres (like J-RPG) it is "less good" game with better graphics)

 

[archangelmorph]

Why not ?
The fact you will have more or better AI / Physics / graphics will change what to the fact you have to use the very same "D-PAD" to make your character move ?
(In fact in some genres (like J-RPG) it is "less good" game with better graphics)

Weak arguements all around IMO..

Does the controller define the gameplay interaction paradigm???

If you think it does then surely, by your logic, there's no difference with regards to gameplay and interactions between what we are seeing now on Xbox360 for example, and the kind of games we could play on the Sega Master System..?

Get real dude...

Interaction mechanisms aren't constrained to physical control types since any abstract control scheme can be devised to utilise the physical controller in new and interesting ways.. These scheme's can fair across the board or differ from one genre to the next but directly prove that the fact that both current and last generation consoles (bar Wii) have similar controllers, doesn't at all mean that all the games will control the same..

Above this, the gameplay system isn't constrained to the interaction mechanism either AND from, what we've seen so far with the rise of more sophisticated AI, physics simulation and gameplay centric advanced rendering effects (e.g. night/heat/thermal vision in games for example), new and innovative gameplay systems have (and will continue to) evolve(d) way past what has been done on previous hardware..

[rant]
What's with this notion of Nintendo being the only ones who know how to innovate in games..? it's pure bullshit..!!
I didn't see nintendo do anything remotely innovative with regards to gamecube whilst Sony were introducing hghly innovative peripherals like Eye-toy and giving us novel gameplay experiences like Shadows of the Colossus..
[/rant]

If innovation and originality in gaming has been done on a conventional platform for well over the past decade then why do some have reason to belive that this trend will not continue onto next generation gaming hardware?

Also comparing JRPGs currently available on Xbox360 and PS3 to those available on PS2 for example is just bad practise.. Considering we have all of what..? one title out so far (enchanted arms and who the hell would ever rate an RPG from From Software in the first place?.. Helloooo!! Evergrace anyone!?!?!) and PS2 had hundreds of titles which reanged from the exceptionally poor to the exceptionally great..

Developing good JRPGs takes time and i'm sure in the next few years there will be titles out for next generation hardware that prove without a shadow of a doubt that the genre will have evolved with the new hardware and not the contrary..

 

[Diamond.G]

Like a broken record: Drop the price to Wii levels now.....

Drop the price, people will buy (after all it is the playstation), make money on the games. Profit!!!!

How much more difficult do you guys want to make it?

 

[Corwin_B]

Like a broken record: Drop the price to Wii levels now.....

Drop the price, people will buy (after all it is the playstation), make money on the games. Profit!!!!

How much more difficult do you guys want to make it?

Profitability on games isn't an instant thing, though, nor is it guaranteed... Royalties on games are what, $10 per copy ? Perhaps even not that ? If Sony is already losing money for each PS3 sold, lowering the price to Wii level would mean that they would not be profitable with attach rates under 40 games per console ?

Also, casuals tend to buy much fewer games than hardcore. So bringing the casuals in "too early" while the hardware still incurs lots of losses is not good. There's a reason why Nintendo built the Wii with profitable HW from day one...

 

[Diamond.G]

Profitability on games isn't an instant thing, though, nor is it guaranteed... Royalties on games are what, $10 per copy ? Perhaps even not that ? If Sony is already losing money for each PS3 sold, lowering the price to Wii level would mean that they would not be profitable with attach rates under 40 games per console ?

Also, casuals tend to buy much fewer games than hardcore. So bringing the casuals in "too early" while the hardware still incurs lots of losses is not good. There's a reason why Nintendo built the Wii with profitable HW from day one...

But losing money had nothing to do with the original question . The answer to that question is what I posted. I know Sony wouldn't drop the price that far for fear of pissing off thier shareholders. Well that and all the other BR manufacturers would probably see that as some sort of transgression. So the real question is with in reason how does Sony catch up? Well I guess that answer is release kick ass OMGWFTBBQ games. Or buy up other developers. Whichever is easier.

 

[-tkf-]

Doesn't change the fact that over 100million people disagree with you and these are the only ones that count. Nice try on the FUD though.

The games that support the PS2 harddrive requires them as well, and they are very few. I think the point here is that the Core version without Harddrive is more important for Microsoft as "look, 360 only 299,-" than an actual console. I never understood that move by Microsoft or the expensive memory card they are offering for the core pack. Two consoles requires that the developers spend more time if they want to to support the harddrive, and even then the support will be limited since anything that would really be usable for gameplay couldn´t be repeated on the Core.

 

[Sis]

That's actually bullshit. Many games outright intentionally screw the Core version. For instance the Oblivion expansion pack requires the Premium. So do virtually all add-on packs. XBL was sorta intended to accommodate the Core, but ultimately screws it with the 50MB limit increase. Any future MMO will screw the Core. If or when a HD-DVD/Blu-ray version of the 360 comes, we'll see another userbase fragmentation.

If that was true, the PS2 will be only console every to see developer money and it will stay that way till the end of time.

Your position seems to be that the PS3 is best-positioned to win this generation (Wii is underpowered to last 5-7 years, Xbox 360 with the fragmented SKUs/accessories), but I haven't seen where you rationalize this: core owners are getting "screwed" over by Microsoft, yet core owners are price concious (hence, why they bought the core). What makes you believe that the core owner that Microsoft is going after would ever be in the same market as the PS3 owner?

 

[TheChefO]

For last gen. Not this one. I hope you don't buy the Nintendo's argument that next-gen is just the same game with better graphics.

What does "nextgen graphics" have to do with your attempt at FUDing the xb360 core?

They can change their minds too.

This would require a change from an accepted (by 70% of the market mind you) model of business for the games industry. So yes they can change their minds and decide they need to spend more money. Or they could be the same budget minded gamers that bought PS2 as soon as it dropped below $200 and picked up a memory card at the counter.

It's not dominance. Exclude first party games and Wii looks pretty weak indeed.

Sure it does. As weak as it looks though in 3rd party sales it's still stronger software sales than ps3...

I'm not making the hard claims here about who's winning. However, I will point out that the Wii has lost a lot of buzz. Go to the games board here, and you'll see Wii is hardly getting mentioned at all, due to being displaced by next-gen games. Worse, there are precious few games coming out for it that are exciting, and the game announcements being made are mostly ignored. Maybe I'm wrong and the buzz is just not part of the "hardcore" gamer group, but I find it hard to believe the Wii is going to go far on Wii Sports alone.

Where have they lost buzz?? I still can't buy one! If you're limiting it to b3d buzz then one would assume ps3 is "teh roxors!11!!" in the market right now when in fact it's trailing in 3rd place in sales.

Tech appreciation at b3d != buzz.

I'm not making hard claims either (aside from disputing your FUD about xb360) and I think Sony COULD regain market leadership in Japan, but quite a few things need to go their way for that to happen:
1) Wii Hardware sales slow
2) Wii Software sales slow
3) Wii compelling Software releases slow
4) PS3 MSRP drops
5) PS3 Software sales increase
6) PS3 compelling Software appears

Some of these are cause and affect but are not necessarily dependant or domino effect.

 

[Diamond.G]

Your position seems to be that the PS3 is best-positioned to win this generation (Wii is underpowered to last 5-7 years, Xbox 360 with the fragmented SKUs/accessories), but I haven't seen where you rationalize this: core owners are getting "screwed" over by Microsoft, yet core owners are price concious (hence, why they bought the core). What makes you believe that the core owner that Microsoft is going after would ever be in the same market as the PS3 owner?

Didn't you get the memo the PS3's price is gonna be 299 by the end of next year!!!

IMO, the core is an interesting position to take. MS is really concerned about cutting cost. As I have stated (and no one refuted) the PS3 needs that hard disk cause BR isn't fast enough (seek time and transfer). Unfortunately there is no way of tesing this theory since the system won't boot up with no drive connected.

So this generation the hard disk perception has changed, Sony is giving us next gen, while MS isn't.
Bluray is the storage format of the future and will enable games that look so much better than anything seen on the other platforms, yadda, yadda.

Sony: Screw the shareholders!!! Drop the Price to 299 tommorrow!! Become supply limited!!!! I dare you .

 

[TheChefO]

The games that support the PS2 harddrive requires them as well, and they are very few. I think the point here is that the Core version without Harddrive is more important for Microsoft as "look, 360 only 299,-" than an actual console.

Agreed never said otherwise. This price position is very important if one tracks sales history. <$200 is where the mainstream market lives. The sooner one can get there, the sooner one can gain mass support from devs.

I never understood that move by Microsoft or the expensive memory card they are offering for the core pack. Two consoles requires that the developers spend more time if they want to to support the harddrive, and even then the support will be limited since anything that would really be usable for gameplay couldn´t be repeated on the Core.

see: xbox1 v ps2 (cross referenced with xb financials) for why they opted out of the standard HDD club.

While devs that do optimise for the hdd will incure additional dev time, how much extra time are we talking about? I have yet to see a dev complain about it as it is their option to support advanced caching features of the hdd.

 

[Crossbar]

IMO, the core is an interesting position to take. MS is really concerned about cutting cost. As I have stated (and no one refuted) the PS3 needs that hard disk cause BR isn't fast enough (seek time and transfer).

And Microsoft doesn't need a HD because the DVD is fast enough?
I guess you could be right if you assume all games for the 360 will only use single layer DVDs < 4.7 GB. But if you think 360 games will utilise dual layer DVDs then you are dead wrong.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Two consoles requires that the developers spend more time if they want to to support the harddrive, and even then the support will be limited since anything that would really be usable for gameplay couldn´t be repeated on the Core.

The support will be limited true, but as for extra work, from Dev statements I've read there is essentially no work required to implement harddrive streaming. MS built it into the SDK so it's basically like flipping the switch.

IMO, anyone saying that Core users are being screwed are completely out of touch with reality, and guilty of spreading FUD. Just because a person can't download extra content or expansion packs does not mean they are 'screwed', they're in the exact same position the majority of gamers have been in for the last 15 years.

Anyone arguing this point really needs to step back, and analyze their own biases. This is a fairly extreme abuse of logic.

 

[Diamond.G]

And Microsoft doesn't need a HD because the DVD is fast enough?
I guess you could be right if you assume all games for the 360 will only use single layer DVDs < 4.7 GB. But if you think 360 games will utilise dual layer DVDs then you are dead wrong.

See you are the first person to refute my comment in this thread. And I thank you. I didn't realize that using DL DVD would put the 360 in the same boat as the PS3 for information access from optical media. So now the PS3 would have a tangible advantage, of being able to install the whole game to the disk. Where as the 360 can't. Cool.

 

[one]

The support will be limited true, but as for extra work, from Dev statements I've read there is essentially no work required to implement harddrive streaming. MS built it into the SDK so it's basically like flipping the switch.

IMO, anyone saying that Core users are being screwed are completely out of touch with reality, and guilty of spreading FUD. Just because a person can't download extra content or expansion packs does not mean they are 'screwed', they're in the exact same position the majority of gamers have been in for the last 15 years.

Anyone arguing this point really needs to step back, and analyze their own biases. This is a fairly extreme abuse of logic.

So the loading for Oblivion on Core is as fast as on Premium and it has been like this for the last 15 years. Cool alternative reality!

See you are the first person to refute my comment in this thread. And I thank you. I didn't realize that using DL DVD would put the 360 in the same boat as the PS3 for information access from optical media. So now the PS3 would have a tangible advantage, of being able to install the whole game to the disk. Where as the 360 can't. Cool.

In terms of tangibility, it's quieter!

 

[scooby_dooby]

So the loading for Oblivion on Core is as fast as on Premium and it has been like this for the last 15 years. Cool alternative reality!

Not even remotely in the same universe as what I said.

They can not download expansion packs or DLC, which was exactly the case with every previous console ever made other than Xbox1. All of a sudden that equates to 'screwing' your userbase? Am I on B3d or has this been replaced with GAF?

Will they have longer load times? Sure. Does that mean they are screwed? Give me a break.