What are Move Engines in Xbox One and PS4?

[babcat]

Niebotskick,

I think it is very possible that instead of four "moveengines" way may see a couple dozen performing a wider variety of functions or making communication between the CPU and GPU more efficient.

 

[iroboto]

So I guess the authors of the following website are lying?

http://www.redgamingtech.com/xbox-o...s-memory-bandwidth-performance-tech-tribunal/

There were no "move engines" in the XBox One?

Let me look up some more liars on the internet.

I found out that Eurogamer is lying too on their website. They report there were FOUR "move engines" in the XBox One.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-the-xbox-one-architects

Look at these blatant lies from Microsoft!

So I guess the authors of the following website are lying?

http://www.redgamingtech.com/xbox-o...s-memory-bandwidth-performance-tech-tribunal/

There were no "move engines" in the XBox One?

Let me look up some more liars on the internet.

I found out that Eurogamer is lying too on their website. They report there were FOUR "move engines" in the XBox One.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-the-xbox-one-architects

Look at these blatant lies from Microsoft!

we been here at b3d discussing hardware for a long time. You're not the first to ask and likely won't be the last. We've really covered all the hardware in XBO.

https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/what-are-move-engines-in-xbox-one-and-ps4.58102/

 

[sebbbi]

The purpose of DMA engines is to do memory transfers and fills in background, while the GPU compute units can concentrate on real work. DirectX 12 and Vulkan expose DMA engines directly (DX12 copy queue, Vulkan transfer queue). DMA engines can usually do simple transforms, such as memory layout swizzling (tiling/detiling) and format conversions.

Good reading if you are interested about detailed specs:
https://www.khronos.org/registry/vulkan/specs/1.0/html/vkspec.html#clears
https://www.khronos.org/registry/vulkan/specs/1.0/html/vkspec.html#copies

 

[Rodéric]

Some DMA engines can also do on the fly compression/decompression.
They aren't magical units of incredible hidden power for sure ^^

 

[babcat]

I don't see why consoles couldn't incorporate more fixed function engines to accelerate certain tasks or help the system overcome specific weaknesses. My understanding is that they can be far more efficient than more generalized hardware. So, for example, MS could make a list of tasks they expect will be performed frequently on the Scorpio and include fixed function hardware for those tasks.

 

[Jay]

I don't see why consoles couldn't incorporate more fixed function engines to accelerate certain tasks or help the system overcome specific weaknesses. My understanding is that they can be far more efficient than more generalized hardware. So, for example, MS could make a list of tasks they expect will be performed frequently on the Scorpio and include fixed function hardware for those tasks.

There are many fixed function parts.
But there will always be a balance between using space on something that is fixed instead, of to general flexible resources.
Some fixed function components that's already there (x1):
video encoding/decoding
general decompression
shape = audio block

These aren't including the fixed function parts of the gpu pipeline.
What do you have in mind that's not already there?

 

[Liandry]

This is old topic but I have similar question as in 2017. Does XBox Series S and XBox Series X have something similar to move engines ar other co-processors as in XBox One?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

A quick look at the RDNA 2 specs reveals the RDNA Memory Controller performs DMA functions. Most of the coprocessors in the XBO presentations were just renamed conventional pieces of the underlying GPU arch and I think it safe to assume they have functionally been included or superseded by whatever AMD put into RDNA2. Any custom hardware would have been identified, such as ZLIB + BCPack compression unit.

 

[Davros]

shape = audio block

I always thought the main reason for shape was to save disk space by virtue of being able to used compressed audio, there are examples of the same game taking up 40gb more disk space on the pc because the pc is using uncompressed audio and the xbox compressed audio.

 

[Lurkmass]

A quick look at the RDNA 2 specs reveals the RDNA Memory Controller performs DMA functions. Most of the coprocessors in the XBO presentations were just renamed conventional pieces of the underlying GPU arch and I think it safe to assume they have functionally been included or superseded by whatever AMD put into RDNA2. Any custom hardware would have been identified, such as ZLIB + BCPack compression unit.

So the way I understand it is that you can perform DMA copies/transfers with either the gfx/compute queues or with dedicated HW copy queues for which AMD internally has always historically referred to this HW unit as the SDMA engines ... (goes all the way back to the R600 days)

Based on the debug information, GFX11 still features these units ...

IP SDMA 6.0 queues:2

 

[Liandry]

A quick look at the RDNA 2 specs reveals the RDNA Memory Controller performs DMA functions. Most of the coprocessors in the XBO presentations were just renamed conventional pieces of the underlying GPU arch and I think it safe to assume they have functionally been included or superseded by whatever AMD put into RDNA2. Any custom hardware would have been identified, such as ZLIB + BCPack compression unit.

Just interesting to know what exactly from XBO 15 coprocessors is in XSX and also in PS4 and PS5. Did someone can give this info?

(goes all the way back to the R600 days)

and as I remember R600 used a lot of stuff from XBox 360 Xenos. So it will be correct to say what some features from XBox 360 are in XSX?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Just interesting to know what exactly from XBO 15 coprocessors is in XSX and also in PS4 and PS5. Did someone can give this info?

You'd want to start by reducing that "15 coprocessors" to what was actually unique and what was just renamed GCN blocks. A lot of the functionality is there as standard in AMD GPUs.

and as I remember R600 used a lot of stuff from XBox 360 Xenos. So it will be correct to say what some features from XBox 360 are in XSX?

Well sure. There's unified shaders. And ROPs. And RAM. And a CPU. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Liandry]

You'd want to start by reducing that "15 coprocessors" to what was actually unique and what was just renamed GCN blocks. A lot of the functionality is there as standard in AMD GPUs.

To be honest I don't know those what are standard in AMD GPUs.

Well sure. There's unified shaders. And ROPs. And RAM. And a CPU.

I mean more specific features. Not those what were for years before Xenos.

 

[XboxKING]

A quick look at the RDNA 2 specs reveals the RDNA Memory Controller performs DMA functions. Most of the coprocessors in the XBO presentations were just renamed conventional pieces of the underlying GPU arch and I think it safe to assume they have functionally been included or superseded by whatever AMD put into RDNA2. Any custom hardware would have been identified, such as ZLIB + BCPack compression unit.

This is SO true,
I remember back in the day that the Xbox One used simple, basic audio hardware, but they renamed it and fans like myself mistook it for something real that would result in anything. Some developer friends were laughing when I asked if they would utilise the full capabilities of the “Shape”-engine or whatever Microsoft rebranded it as. Apparently the PS4 had the exact same silicon down to the last transistor

 

[Davros]

I remember at the time arguing with someone who thought that just because Shape had more raw mips than the EMU10K2 dsp that it could do everything that it could do. It depends what those mips are dedicated to and in shape most of them were dedicated to the playback of compressed audio streams (which it did well)