Was Cell any good? *spawn

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I remember to have read something about Motorstorm Apocalypse development (maybe on EG special); I remember the developer talked of notable quantity of physics, dynamic level, procedural variables, 'thanks' to the SPU etc etc; I can't said more precisely, tech wise, but based to what you talking of MT physic spec? You just suppose or...? Because in the last claims of the developers I'm pretty sure to otherwise ...

The buildings falling down are clearly scripted, if they are not then why do they only fall down when they are in front of you and not when you are on some other part of the track?

The PS3 only has one core that is not a SPE so of course it would be using them for a fair amount of the tasks.

P.S
Lets not forget the one game that pushed physics this gen, Red Faction Guerrilla is cross platform.
 
The buildings falling down are clearly scripted, if they are not then why do they only fall down when they are in front of you and not when you are on some other part of the track?

The PS3 only has one core that is not a SPE so of course it would be using them for a fair amount of the tasks.

P.S
Lets not forget the one game that pushed physics this gen, Red Faction Guerrilla is cross platform.

Maybe the same rason the buildings don't fall down until the event get's triggered is the same reason why buildings don't fall down in Red Faction: Guerilla until you shoot them or crash into them..

Clearly there must be some game-logic to the events and physics.
The games wouldn't be fun if all the buildings in Red Faction usually trapped the car.. or if all the rubble in MS:Apoc blocked all the race-routes making you stuck.

Also, the AI cars also triggers events, not only you even tough some are player-only, and they also move various rubble, to different spots so when you come to the next lap, rubble leftover might have been moved by what I assume is AI cars.

Here is a interview done with some of the MS:Apocalypse people.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/digitalfoundry-motorstorm-apocalypse-tech-interview?page=4

I assume everyone interested in tech enough to read this forum, is registered to gamesindustry.biz - if you're not it's a great website with lots of interesting articles.
 
Maybe the same rason the buildings don't fall down until the event get's triggered is the same reason why buildings don't fall down in Red Faction: Guerilla until you shoot them or crash into them..

Clearly there must be some game-logic to the events and physics.
The games wouldn't be fun if all the buildings in Red Faction usually trapped the car.. or if all the rubble in MS:Apoc blocked all the race-routes making you stuck.

Also, the AI cars also triggers events, not only you even tough some are player-only, and they also move various rubble, to different spots so when you come to the next lap, rubble leftover might have been moved by what I assume is AI cars.

Here is a interview done with some of the MS:Apocalypse people.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/digitalfoundry-motorstorm-apocalypse-tech-interview?page=4


I assume everyone interested in tech enough to read this forum, is registered to gamesindustry.biz - if you're not it's a great website with lots of interesting articles.

Red Faction Guerrilla did have a problem before release of buildings falling down without the player doing anything.

But the buildings in motorstorm are not made like they are in Red Faction Guerrilla.


How the buildings fall down in motorstorm are pre canned animations, only the parts that can be moved by the cars and fall onto the track would have physics.

It would be hugely wasteful to have the physics engine rip the buildings apart piece by piece.



And lets not forget that you claimed that the buildings falling down was because of the physics engine (and the power of cell) and that you have never seen a cross platform game which does the same things and I pointed out Split Second which does things that are very much alike motorstorm.
 
The buildings falling down are clearly scripted, if they are not then why do they only fall down when they are in front of you and not when you are on some other part of the track?
It could be a scripted event with realtime physics when its triggered.
 
Red Faction Guerrilla did have a problem before release of buildings falling down without the player doing anything.

But the buildings in motorstorm are not made like they are in Red Faction Guerrilla.


How the buildings fall down in motorstorm are pre canned animations, only the parts that can be moved by the cars and fall onto the track would have physics.

It would be hugely wasteful to have the physics engine rip the buildings apart piece by piece.



And lets not forget that you claimed that the buildings falling down was because of the physics engine (and the power of cell) and that you have never seen a cross platform game which does the same things and I pointed out Split Second which does things that are very much alike motorstorm.

Well, it's pretty clear to me that you've not played MS:A much.
The physics affect the alot of the destructive enivromental objects (wich isn't automatically the same as physics in a game) in MS:A.

If it were only precanned animations, like you claim, it would allways be the same each time you saw the event, or crashed through a object. It would not react differently when a huge truck hit it, as if a dirtbike, or buggy hit it, however that's what it does in MS:A, depending on who hits them.

And remnants of the events change when you come around to your second lap, because the other drivers have run into the same places, and hit those objects. If one of the other players is in a bike, he will not be able to move a rock, but if he is in a big truck, that rock will move, or he will crash through a building, wich will open a route for the biker.

I assume that is what the developers mean when they said they had over 2000 dynamic objects on some of the levels, in page four of the interview I linked to.

I can't speak so much about Split Second, or Portal 2, because I havn't played those titles, and besides what youtube show me, I can't know how they are, and you don't get a feel for physics on videos in my layman opinion.

And I havn't 'forgotten' what I claimed - but you have..
I said basically I didn't know if it is because of the cell-factor, but it felt that way to me when playing those games, compared to the other titles.
It just felt that way to me when playing, and tried to contribute to the discussion by giving some examples, of when I felt that way.

When I played Red Faction: Guerilla, I found the amount of destructive enviroment really impressive aswell. :) The physics itself reacted properly, it did sometimes have wow-factor, but for me I didn't have the same kind of wow-moments as I felt when playing MS:A.
That dosn't mean that it's not impressive, because I did find the physics interacting with the amount of destructable enviroments really impressive.

Besides, there clearly where alot of the issues you claim Motorstorm have in RF:G, aswell various rubble dissepeared if you went away, and came back to the destroyed building a minute later, it would be a clean and neat area, and the buildings building blocks were allways pretty identical, when destroying the enviroment with the sledge-hammer, you could see the same pre-canned animations chopping away the same part of the object into two smaller different objects, the same type of house where allways the same kind of blocks, and the towers had the identical wire-steel - but the physics reacted well with those pieces for the most part, but you could also run ontop of a bridge with the car, when theoretically it should drop down, because when one wheel is on pavement, and three outside, it should fall down - it were not really a problem for me, no game is perfect, and you do make some excuses for a game with as many destructive objects a that RF:G had., however, I didn't feel the physics where as good as in MS:A.. :)
Atleast for me, I think the physics in MS:A were way more crazy, than when I played RF:G. But it's a totally different paced game, and hard to compare.
 
It could be a scripted event with realtime physics when its triggered.

Kind of pointless with most or all of the building not being in an area that the player can get to and thus interact with.

I have seen cars drive through some large bits of a building when it is part way through collapsing.

KongRudi,
Just because some rubble can be hit by cars does not mean the whole building was pulled down by physics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, only that some rubble is spawned when buildings fall down!
Split Second does the same thing!!!!

Just because when you hit the same spot on a building in RFG the same thing happens does not mean it is pre done! The physics engine is working on all the parts of the building to see if it can fall down, dev videos clearly show that!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ6XM7NfGr8


The fact you said what you did about RFG clearly show you have not understood what I have been talking about.

You are mistaking graphics for physics.
 
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Well... "some" rubble is a bit of an understatement. The physics enabled objects in Motorstorm Apocalypse are PLENTY. They don't affect your driving, obviously, as it would make the game unplayable.

In Uncharted 3 (the E3 level on the ship) is really impressive, too, in that regard. The ship rocking in the waves (simulated waves, no less) and all the non-static objects moving around too... it's really impressive. The same goes to the cargo plane level.
 
Kind of pointless with most or all of the building not being in an area that the player can get to and thus interact with.
Choice of reprendering or calculating would come down to whether you ahve more RAm available to store prerendered data, or more processing power available to calculate it. If they have a physics engine capable of processing those events and the spare cycles, they may as well use them.

I have seen cars drive through some large bits of a building when it is part way through collapsing.
That would suggest precalculated physics, but even then you can shift particles into different collision groups so there's no way of knowing! I haven't seen the same so can't contribute any observations. This whole notion of trying to see how Cell is beuing used by looking at the pretty pictures is a serious dead end though. Computing offers countless ways to solves the same problems, so without access to the source code (or at least profilers) we can only identify possible ways the hardware is being used - in this case realtime or precalculated physics are both valid options, one of which requires Cell's number crunching powers and one which doesn't.
 
in this case realtime or precalculated physics are both valid options, one of which requires Cell's number crunching powers and one which doesn't.

I agree with your post here, but regardless of the method used, without the game running on another platform (360 or PC), how are we to know Cell's number crunching powers were required? :p

Basically I guess I'm saying that notion of effect X is only possible because of hardware component Y is hard to prove when the software has never been attempted on another piece of hardware.

Just playing devil's advocate here. :devilish: I think the Cell is a great piece of tech in the PS3.
 
You are mistaking graphics for physics.

Not really.. I just realise that the only physics I see must interact with graphics, before I can explain them. I can't see any physics in a game otherwise, no more than I can see graveity in everyday life.. It's you wich try to explain the apple falling incorect. I think I explained physics pretty well with the car-analogy in RF:G, it's you who confuse physics with what must be destructible enviromental effects and objects. The physics is alot more than buildings falling down.. That's just part of it.

And the devs also explain what they use the SPU's for, in the interview I linked to.
 
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Killzone 2's heavy post processing is also pretty obvious.
That's a great example of what I'm talking about and completely disproves your point. You can see "KZ2 is doing a lot of post-processing." What you can't tell is how many layers they're blending together to do the post effects. You can't tell how those layers are computed, how much they rely on scalar arithmetic or if there's much in the way of vector math being done. You can't tell to what extent the post effects are done using Cell and to what extent they're done with the RSX. You don't know if the amount of math they're doing is really harnessing the SPEs, or if it's getting a lot of bang for a comparatively small computational buck using clever tricks. The only way you can know that is for the people who wrote the code to basically tell you.
 
The dust in the Killzone 2 level is just animated, it does not have physics.

What about the dynamic particles that bounce off walls and objects during explosion (e.g. when you fire a rocket) ? But much of SPUs were thrown at graphics work in KZ2 regardless.

The start of Portal 2 has you walking around in a room that is moving and falling apart (and later in the game you muck around with fluid that looks quite cool).

And the Motorstorm level is mostly scripted with a few hard body physics objects on the ground and with all the debris in the air fly around being nothing more than animated sprites. Split Second Velocity is very similar.

For a driving game, I think they also have to handle multi-car collision behavior (tumbling and what not). So it's not just a scripted physics for debris. In MotorStorm, driving other vehicles to collision or off the cliff is what you want to do if you're driving the truck.

I think the most obvious physics stuff are fluid simulation and driving physics (so that it's not floaty and drives realistically).

Saying "thanks to spu" doesn't mean anything really. Remember the ps3 only has one core, so everything, even boring mundane physics will have to use spu. They may as well say "thanks to electrons", it would be just as relevant.

It depends. I believe early Havok was done mostly on the PPU. New Havok can be done on PPU and SPUs depending on your needs. On PS3, they don't have to spend too much computing power on decompression too since they have ample space on Blu-ray. I remember one early article mentioned that advanced decompression takes up a lot of PPU time when needed.
 
That's a great example of what I'm talking about and completely disproves your point. You can see "KZ2 is doing a lot of post-processing." What you can't tell is how many layers they're blending together to do the post effects. You can't tell how those layers are computed, how much they rely on scalar arithmetic or if there's much in the way of vector math being done. You can't tell to what extent the post effects are done using Cell and to what extent they're done with the RSX. You don't know if the amount of math they're doing is really harnessing the SPEs, or if it's getting a lot of bang for a comparatively small computational buck using clever tricks. The only way you can know that is for the people who wrote the code to basically tell you.

You can. The SPUs uses hard math to do its graphics calculation because it can afford to (RSX is rendering in parallel anyway, so it's "free" if devs can overlap the operations). Many GPU techniques use simplified calculations. That's why MLAA looks better in GoW3 on the consoles.

In the KZ2 and U2 slides, they mentioned doing "proper" post processing too. The GPUs of that era are not fast enough to do serious calculations and rendering at the same time. And because of the memory wall problem, a regular CPU also can't help in rendering directly. The combined result is a thick stack of post processing effects in KZ2 @ 720p.
 
The best use of the Cell can be seen in Gran Turismo 5. Just imagine all the physics calculations going on. The player's car, the A.I, the changing dynamic time of day, weather effects, the tire physics etc

Imagine a processor with 4 times the power.


By the way, Killzone 3 has the best A.I i have seen in a shooter
 
I believe early Havok was done mostly on the PPU. New Havok can be done on PPU and SPUs depending on your needs. On PS3, they don't have to spend too much computing power on decompression too since they have ample space on Blu-ray. I remember one early article mentioned that advanced decompression takes up a lot of PPU time when needed.

Havok has supported spu for sometime now, there isn't enough ppu to go around anyways.You still want to compress data even on bluray because otherwise you will be bound by optical disc bandwidth (leading to long load times, more pop in, etc). The ppu was already scarce in 2009, I can't imagine the sittuation is better now.
 
Havok has supported spu for sometime now, there isn't enough ppu to go around anyways.

Which, imho, just goes to show how little games used of Havok in the first place. People are thinking about Havok's 4.5 release, somewhere in 2007, and which was SPU optimised in cooperation with the Motorstorm developers. From the original press-release:

Game developers using Havok Physics and Havok Animation products to develop for PS3 will be able to harness the full power of all the SPUs, while maintaining the complete flexibility of the Havok SDK. Havok architecture now scales strongly across all SPUs and runs between 5 and 10 times faster than Havok 4.0 for a typical game scene on the PS3.

“We made sure that we met our customers’ demand for a PS3 optimized version of Havok as soon as possible” says Havok CEO, David O’Meara. Comments Scott Kirkland, Technical Director at Evolution Studios and lead on PS3 exclusive title MotorStorm, “With its unparalleled environmental interaction and spectacular destruction, MotorStorm’s brutal, chaotic, off-road racing makes big demands on physics processing. Unphazed by the intense time pressures of our project, Havok rose to this next-gen challenge and provided us with an outstanding suite of professional tools, technology and support to help realize our vision. We’re now looking forward to collaborating with the Havok team on future Evolution products”.

Mind you, this isn't all that interesting yet. There were more interesting figures out there detailing how much SPU time was needed to match other platforms I think, but I don't know if they can still be found.
 
Naturally, compression is always needed. But the devs need to compress assets more on DVD to pack them into the high speed access area (Otherwise, they may be slower than Blu-ray). On Blu-ray, there is less pressing need for sophisticated compression because the speed is constant. They usually rely on the built-in HDD to cache data. And they have more cores to use for decompression if necessary.

The ppu was already scarce in 2009, I can't imagine the sittuation is better now.

The PPU is useful for running game logic and orchestrating/coordinating the SPUs. You can run computational code on its VMX if you want. Based on their interviews, the developers want to move as much as possible to the SPUs. Once both the PPU and the SPUs can perform the same tasks, they can spread the load between the 8 cores.
 
Which, imho, just goes to show how little games used of Havok in the first place.

Yup, prolly not enough cpu grunt to go around. They scale havok across all spu's which is great, but you need a couple of spu + ppu to match the other consoles baseline cpu power, and you need more spus for graphics work, etc, so not a whole lot of spu's left for havok alas. They can make great tech demos though that use all 6 spu's, but that's not indicative of the real games market.


Naturally, compression is always needed. But the devs need to compress assets more on DVD to pack them into the high speed access area (Otherwise, they may be slower than Blu-ray).

You also need to miminize blu-ray head seeks, that's a big killer of performance. So in practise both end of being compressed as heavily as possible.


The PPU is useful for running game logic and orchestrating/coordinating the SPUs. You can run computational code on its VMX if you want. Based on their interviews, the developers want to move as much as possible to the SPUs. Once both the PPU and the SPUs can perform the same tasks, they can spread the load between the 8 cores.


They would not share a given load over all 8 cores because the spu cores would be optimized differently than the ppu cores. The ppu cores all but have to be used in vmx at this point, would be madness otherwise. The spu cores need to take advantage of dual issue whenever possible. The two may even have different data structures/algotihims each optimized for vmx or spu+dma. Most everything needs to be shifted to spu now and optimized for that, whatever is left over will need to be optimized for ppu and left entirely there, I wouldn't expect the two to cross. There are definitely optimization similarties between the two, but you have to treat them separate to get the most out of them.
 
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By the way, Killzone 3 has the best A.I i have seen in a shooter

That is partly because of how the AI is tightly integrated with the animation. So the gamers get to see the AI's reaction in their animation directly. The AI designer has a paper on it.
 
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