Vulkan/OpenGL Next Generation Initiative: unified API for mobile and non-mobile devices.

Discussion in 'Rendering Technology and APIs' started by ToTTenTranz, Aug 11, 2014.

  1. Kaotik

    Kaotik Drunk Member
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    http://anandtech.com/show/9038/next-generation-opengl-becomes-vulkan-additional-details-released
     
  2. sebbbi

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    OpenCL 2.1 with SPIR-V:
    http://anandtech.com/show/9039/khronos-announces-opencl-21-c-comes-to-opencl

    C++14 subset shading language (lambdas, templates, etc). Subgroup functionality improvements. Meaning that OpenCL finally will match CUDA in productivity (and performance).

    Vulkan shares the SPIR-V backend with OpenCL 2.1. It should't be a big task add C++14 shading language and other OpenCL 2.1 goodies such as subgroup functionality and device side enqueue to Vulkan. If this happens, Vulkan becomes a very interesting API (very good productivity and GPU side performance). A robust shading language (with generics support) is becoming a highly important thing since many graphics engines are at least partly transitioning to GPU from CPU. Writing and maintaining good generic libraries for shader code is a time consuming task. C++14 subset language makes this much easier (CUDA is a good example of this).
     
  3. sebbbi

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    Shared SPIR-V backend would make it trivial for Vulcan's compute shaders and OpenCL 2.1 to share the same shader feature set.

    This would mean the following things:
    1. We finally have a PC graphics API that supports device side enqueue (dynamic parallelism) :)
    2. We finally have a PC graphics API that supports subgroup (wave/warp) and cross lane operations :)

    Both features are 100% AWESOME and result in big GPU side performance gains. Also both features make shader programming easier, by reducing the code bloat. Subgroup operations make it almost trivial to do complex parallel constructions such as prefix sums and reductions. These constructs allow the compiler to emit optimal vendor specific GPU op-codes (lane swizzles instead of manual LDS communication). Complex compute shaders get both simpler and run faster (less instructions, no additional LDS usage, reduced GPR usage). Device side enqueue simplifies both CPU code and GPU code (no need to bounce data and control flow between CPU<->GPU multiple times) and makes it possible to implement a wide variety of traditional divide-and-conquer algorithms on the GPU without needing frequent CPU round trips. Performance of these kinds of algorithms on GPU is awful without device side enqueue.

    I just hope that Microsoft follows the lead, and starts to improve DirectCompute sooner than later. DirectCompute feature set has been unchanged since the launch (of DirectX 11.0). DirectX 11.1 and 11.2 added only graphics features, no improvement for compute at all. The published DirectX 11.3 feature list (http://www.anandtech.com/show/8544/microsoft-details-direct3d-113-12-new-features) includes only graphics features.

    DirectCompute is starting to feel ancient, as CUDA and OpenCL have improved rapidly over the past few years. Our engine is ~90% compute shaders. Other developers are moving rapidly towards compute as well. I would kill to have all these new features and productivity improvements in DirectX.
     
    #63 sebbbi, Mar 4, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2015
    firstminion, Lightman, Alexko and 2 others like this.
  4. Kaotik

    Kaotik Drunk Member
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  5. pharma

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    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/0...e_next_generation_of_the_opengl_graphics_api/
     
    #65 pharma, Mar 5, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2015
  6. Scott_Arm

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    I wonder if OSX will finally get decent gaming performance.
     
  7. Kaotik

    Kaotik Drunk Member
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    elect and Lightman like this.
  8. CouldntResist

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    Some of us have seen this before. The old routine goes like this:

    "OpenGL is old!"
    Diagrams, lot's of diagrams.
    On this slide, we have impressive wall of contributor logos.
    Some code snippets. Naming conventions look familiar, so it must be real thing.
    "This time we're serious!"
    Awkward silence from nVidia...

    I'm feeling young again. What about you, guys?
     
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  9. pixeljetstream

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    not sure what you mean with awkward silence, NVIDIA sent the lead Vulkan driver developer to the panel and did present a running Vulkan demo as did Imagination and Intel (via Valve's driver), though AMD did not afaik.
     
  10. Alexko

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    And I'm confused about the "old routine" thing. When did this happen before?
     
  11. firstminion

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  12. liolio

    liolio Aquoiboniste
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    There is Apple's logo on the Kronos webpage, does that means "Metal" is dead? It does not make much sense at this point.
     
  13. pixeljetstream

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    @firstminion indeed he was and no doubt about his commitment, my comment was about running demos.
     
  14. firstminion

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    Was it really necessary? That's like beating a dead horse, Mantle bootstrapped Vulkan and Graham talked about making an application on Vulkan. A 2m demo would be a waste of time.
     
  15. pixeljetstream

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    yeah should not have made that statement, the point was rather that several IHVs including nvidia all were present showing stuff.
     
  16. pharma

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    http://www.pcworld.com/article/2894...ises-from-the-ashes-as-opengls-successor.html
     
  17. Forrest

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    [​IMG]
    Ofcourse it will be stripped to make sure all IHVs (including mobile) are able to support it. But nonetheless AMD seems to be the biggest contributor towards Vulkan. Having a common efficient API across all platforms with suitable vendor specific extensions would be great for gaming in general.
     
  18. Jawed

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    This single post by Promit is an absolute must-read:

    http://www.gamedev.net/topic/666419-what-are-your-opinions-on-dx12vulkanmantle/#entry5215019

    A couple of excerpts:

    I highly recommend that post to everyone, it's well written and should make sense to casual readers of this forum.
     
    elect, Malo and Newguy like this.
  19. Jawed

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    GLAVE open source debugger, which is a joint venture of LunarG and Valve:



    This tool was shown briefly during the Khronos presentation on Vulkan.

    It's possible to replay captured "time demos" and turn on validation, with break-on-error as well as being able to single-step the replay.
     
  20. DmitryKo

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    I didn't realize that even the best WDDM drivers on this planet devote significant portion of their source code to resolving app compatibility issues...

    It's just sad.

    If one day Microsoft decides to completely shut off WDDM 1.x and re-implement D3D9/10/11 runtime on top of WDDM 2.x, they will probably have to introduce a whole new Direct3D compatibility system similar to the App Compat layer for Win32 apps complete with per-application "shims" for feature level and capability lying, shader code replacement, custom DLLs and functions... all that finny stuff.

    https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/jj863250.aspx
    http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2003/12/24/45779.aspx
    http://blogs.technet.com/b/askperf/...-your-old-stuff-work-with-your-new-stuff.aspx
    etc.
     
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