Vodaphone announces Sharp 904SH VGA phone with T5G accelerator

[hidefguy]

VGA phone with Toshiba T5G graphics accelerator (~1.2 million triangles/sec), coming April.

Announcement:
http://www.vodafone.jp/english/release/2006/20060228_1e.pdf

Pics/discussion:
http://forum2.mobile-review.com/showthread.php?p=376776

 

[Lazy8s]

3D with the resolution of a TV could allow cellphones to do some serious personal computing and not just the fragment of the desktop experience that most smartphones deliver.

Although the T5G is supposedly similar to the T4G, Toshiba has been timely with these 3D chip releases. Their last processor's performance was relatively fast but seemed to lack some features for IQ according to a JBenchmark test. Maybe they'll stay with in-house development for next generation handheld graphics processors, which might need to be DirectX 9+ like the offerings of their competitors to be compliant with a potential Windows Vista Mobile at some point.

When these cellphone screens can boast full color and high brightness as well as a high resolution, modern handheld visuals will have really arrived.

 

[Guden Oden]

If I was actually interested in a phone made by anyone else but Nokia or SE, I'd care some about this thing. Seeing as it isn't, I don't.

Also, what kind of tech is used in this 3D chip? Unless it's comparable to PowerVR's deferred rendering it isn't interesting. Standard Z-buffered immediate-mode is blaha blaha in comparison and simply wastes power and computing resources. Both of those are very bad in a cellphone.

Then again, one might question the actual NEED of high-performance 3D rendering in a cell. I wouldn't be caught dead gaming on one, that's for sure, and there's little need for 3D for any other purpose...

 

[hidefguy]

If I was actually interested in a phone made by anyone else but Nokia or SE, I'd care some about this thing. Seeing as it isn't, I don't.

Also, what kind of tech is used in this 3D chip? Unless it's comparable to PowerVR's deferred rendering it isn't interesting. Standard Z-buffered immediate-mode is blaha blaha in comparison and simply wastes power and computing resources. Both of those are very bad in a cellphone.

Then again, one might question the actual NEED of high-performance 3D rendering in a cell. I wouldn't be caught dead gaming on one, that's for sure, and there's little need for 3D for any other purpose...

A couple of points: as these devices become more capable, developers will begin writing applications that utilize them, and I think you'll begin to see real-world applications that use 3D acceleration and the high resolution screens. Also, whilst Nokia and Sony Ericsson make terrific phones, they're far from being the "only kids on the block" any more, particularly in respect to advanced, high quality phones - but competition is a good thing, right?

Also, I don't completely understand this forum's focus on MBX-based technologies in mobile devices - NVidia and ATI, not to mention other manufacturers, are doing some pretty cute things in the mobile graphics area, both in terms of capability and also the important area of power usage.

 

[Xmas]

Then again, one might question the actual NEED of high-performance 3D rendering in a cell. I wouldn't be caught dead gaming on one, that's for sure, and there's little need for 3D for any other purpose...

It's not just 3D that's important on mobile devices. You also want a nice and responsive vector-based UI, using high levels of AA. And it's no surprise a 3D-chip can be a very good match for this as well.

 

[Ailuros]

Also, I don't completely understand this forum's focus on MBX-based technologies in mobile devices - NVidia and ATI, not to mention other manufacturers, are doing some pretty cute things in the mobile graphics area, both in terms of capability and also the important area of power usage.

So far for multimedia no doubt when it comes to Imageon and/or GoForce, but definitely not yet 3D. Fillrates are underwhelming, triangle rates not even close in real time to the advertised ones and not a single sign of anything AA.

Finally this forum can focus on whatever it wants it won't make a difference to the large semiconductor manufacturer's decisions.

 

[SiBoy]

Also, what kind of tech is used in this 3D chip? Unless it's comparable to PowerVR's deferred rendering it isn't interesting. Standard Z-buffered immediate-mode is blaha blaha in comparison and simply wastes power and computing resources. Both of those are very bad in a cellphone.

You've been reading too much ImgTech marketing literature. They will be glad to hear you're taking their word for it. That being said, you fit right in on this forum!

 

[ddes]

Also, what kind of tech is used in this 3D chip? Unless it's comparable to PowerVR's deferred rendering it isn't interesting. Standard Z-buffered immediate-mode is blaha blaha in comparison and simply wastes power and computing resources. Both of those are very bad in a cellphone.QUOTE]

Have you considered how much power and computing resources are needed to perform binning, sorting, etc. required by deferred rendering? With increasing number of geometry in game scenes, I'm not sure if TBDR is that great really.

 

[Teasy]

You've been reading too much ImgTech marketing literature. They will be glad to hear you're taking their word for it. That being said, you fit right in on this forum!

You're right, we should ignore the facts and the decisions of 90% of the manufacturers in the mobile market and listen to you instead..

 

[Teasy]

Have you considered how much power and computing resources are needed to perform binning, sorting, etc. required by deferred rendering?

You do realise that basically the same tasks you just mentioned take place in an immediate mode renderer right? Just done slightly differently and in a different order (after rendering instead of before rendering). Storing and then sorting/removing hidden geometry before rendering the frame takes up considerably less power and computing recources then removing hidden pixels after rendering the frame.

With increasing number of geometry in game scenes, I'm not sure if TBDR is that great really

That's debatable in high end PC games with tens of millions of polygons per second.. but we're talking about mobile phone games here.

 

[SiBoy]

You're right, we should ignore the facts and the decisions of 90% of the manufacturers in the mobile market and listen to you instead..

Perhaps you could show us a power comparison between two phones in gaming mode, one with MBX, one without?

Or perhaps listing all of the phones with HW accelerated 3D graphics, and showing us how much of this volume shipped has MBX in it? # of licensees is a meaningless metric if there is no volume behind it.

Or maybe a revenue comparison for PowerVR vs. the handheld divisions of ATI or Nvidia?

 

[Ty]

I thought a part of the phones with MBX in it don't even have the 3D HW turned on...but maybe I'm off base.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

A 2.4" at 640x480 is an incredible resolution! 333dpi! Must look fantastic, though at the average distance of use much of those pixels will not be discernible.

Also does this suggest PSP2 will be 1080p in a 4" screen?

 

[Teasy]

Perhaps you could show us a power comparison between two phones in gaming mode, one with MBX, one without?

Or perhaps listing all of the phones with HW accelerated 3D graphics, and showing us how much of this volume shipped has MBX in it? # of licensees is a meaningless metric if there is no volume behind it.

Or maybe a revenue comparison for PowerVR vs. the handheld divisions of ATI or Nvidia?

By all means feel free to post any of that info. After all according to yourself you know better then the rest of this forum in this matter, so lets see the data to back it up.

 

[SiBoy]

By all means feel free to post any of that info. After all according to yourself you know better then the rest of this forum in this matter, so lets see the data to back it up.

The data to back what up?

 

[Teasy]

You're opinion of course..

 

[SiBoy]

You're opinion of course..

I didn't state an opinion, I asked you to back-up your claims. You mentioned "considerably less power", but you couldn't answer a question about how much. You mentioned "the facts and the decisions of 90% of the manufacturers in the mobile market", but you aren't able to elaborate. Then your debate style degenerated into taking the questions you were asked, and asking me?? LOL

It's ok, you've answered plenty. What's another MBX fanboi in the forum

 

[Nappe1]

You're right, we should ignore the facts and the decisions of 90% of the manufacturers in the mobile market and listen to you instead..

Perhaps you could show us a power comparison between two phones in gaming mode, one with MBX, one without?

Or perhaps listing all of the phones with HW accelerated 3D graphics, and showing us how much of this volume shipped has MBX in it? # of licensees is a meaningless metric if there is no volume behind it.

Or maybe a revenue comparison for PowerVR vs. the handheld divisions of ATI or Nvidia?

you're so funny guys....


to talk about mobile companies investing to something, Nokia rarely puts it's money on something they don't plan using. This does not mean though they would be exclusively using G-series, but I think it would be pretty much weird, if no G-series would appear in Nokia phones.

I am betting that main thing they nailed their eyes wasn't exactly High end, but the low end. G12 is something no other graphics provider has to offer. Nokia has been pretty keen driving SVG forward for cellphones and now they have access to core that is cheap enough to put in every phone from low to high end. As what comes to it's performance, I have only seen fpga version of it running demo, but it sure did beat quite few more powerful machines running same on software in PC.

 

[Ailuros]

No instead of labelling without any exeption people to cover for your own agenda it would be a nice change if you'd come up with some at least claims or even facts instead of simply provoking.

Let's take them one by one and for all mistakes I'll gladly stand corrected:

ATI

Apart from LG SV360 I don't recall having seen any other phone using Imageon. If Qualcomm (boy I bet that sounds familiar hm? ) has anything ready yet I wonder why it wasn't shown at 3GSM.

Unless I'm inherently wrong I can see in terms of 3D one phone shipping (Korea only?) and one applications processor expected (whenever it's done) from Qualcomm.

NVIDIA

GoForce4500 was used in Gizmondo (Rest In Peace). GoForce 4800 is being used in Sony/Erricson W900i (with 3 inbuild games; one being clearly a 2D game the other two something that comes damn close to 3D). Motorola Razor comes with the 4800 (native applications can use 3D)

3D: 1 Handheld gaming device (flopped and RIP), 2 Phones ( one recently shipping) and no applications processors.

Falanx

Deal with Zoran for applications processors, whereby I wonder what Zoran has to do with the mobile market.

3D: 1 Applications processor (no volume).

Bitboys

Several licenses from NEC, unknown integration, nothing has been mentioned or marketed yet afaik.

3D: LCD Driver/Processor (chip? volume?)

PowerVR

20 SoCs committed by partners; applications processors to follow:

• Intel i2700G (shipping in volume)
• Renesas SHMobile 3 and 3A (both shipping in volume)
• TI OMAP 2420 (shipping in volume)
• TI OMAP 2430 (announced)
• Philips PNX4008 (shipping in volume)
• Freescale i.MX31 (shipping in volume)
• Samsung S3C2460 (announced)
• Sunplus (unknown yet details)
• Centrality Communications (unknown yet details)

Products:

• SKTeletech IM-8300 (volume, 3rd most popular product in Korea, shipping in China and will ship in the US as a Pantech device).
• Motorola MS550 (volume in Korea)
• 6 Phones making up the whole Docomo 902 Series (4x OMAP2420, 2x SHMobile3) all 3D enabled through Doja4.x Spec
• Sony Ericsson P990, M600 and W950 (using PNX4008 and all with native OpenGL-ES 3D Enabled including built-in game

PDAs: Dell Axim X50v and X51v
Others: Pepperpad and various in car navigation systems.

3D in summary: 7 application processors (announced and available in volume), with over 20 projects commited by partners. 8 mobile phones shipping with 3D enabled and 3 more are going to get announced soon afaik. And that list doesn't even cover other integrations of MBX concerning gambling, PDA and in-car navigation.

As far as power consumption goes how on God's green earth can anyone even compare different SoCs with fundamentally different processors from the go? As for revenue of the mobile market, well if ATI/NVIDIA would sell any IP it would be also comparable.

 

[hidefguy]

Motorola Razor comes with the 4800 but it has 3D disabled

As an FYI; as far as I'm aware, hardware 3D acceleration is functioning in the V3X, but JSR184 (M3G) programming doesn't use it (i.e. native applications can).