Value of Consoles vs PC *spin off*

[BoardBonobo]

Nvidia made a mistake with the 900 series in which was very popular with data science folks. Everyone bought 980TIs because they were so effective.
In Pascal consumer graphics cards they nuked FP16 to run at 1/128 the FP32 speeds -- yes take 6 TF / 128 = FP16 performance.
Basically, it's useless for ML unless you do everything in FP32, which almost no one does it's mostly FP16 and below for deep learning.
My CPU will run circles around my 1070 if the NN is set to FP16 for deep learning right now.

If you want fast FP16 during pascal you had to pony up for a professional card, then the pascal cuda cores run FP16x2
Turing and Volta resolved those issues, but costs are higher.
Ampere is actually the next logical good overall performing card at a reasonable price point.

Ah OK. I was just wondering, so the trade off for speed over precision is worth it? It's been a while since I dabbled with ML (I did a degree in AI but we didn't have ready made libraries or hardware acceleration then!! It was weeks of running epochs for GAs etc). I'm guessing mixed precision doesn't help in this use case.

 

[Picao84]

It must be tiring hauling those goalposts all over the field

What goalposts did I move? I'm comparing Apples to Apples. Why would I compare a PC bought 3 years before XBox One and PS4 was launched to them? You can extrapolate from them that PCs bought for the same value at the same time they were launched are still playing games fine today and will for a while, negating the need to buy a PS5 or XSX.

 

[Lalaland]

Who is talking about the deal you made 3 years before the launch of this gen except you?

At launch with the same amount of money in your pocket as a console you will not buy or build a PC with equivalent performance from scratch that will offer the same performance over the console life cycle.

 

[PSman1700]

At launch with the same amount of money in your pocket as a console you will not buy or build a PC with equivalent performance from scratch that will offer the same performance over the console life cycle.

Different markets, same for the value. IF you go pc, you go for something like a 3070 atleast, yes it will be more expensive, but you also get more performance and can do more with it.
When im building a pc at console launch (i usually dont), i wouldn't try to match a console, but build one thats much more powerfull.
The console is going to be cheaper, but also offer less performance/versitality, you also dont have to replace the whole system in case of a mid gen refresh. Value has different proportions.

 

[Picao84]

Who is talking about the deal you made 3 years before the launch of this gen except you?

At launch with the same amount of money in your pocket as a console you will not buy or build a PC with equivalent performance from scratch that will offer the same performance over the console life cycle.

Why do you need to buy the PC at launch? Do people only buy consoles at launch and never again? Why is the launch so important? If you assume that if you wait a couple of years or less to get a machine that is more powerful for the same money AND that it will give you longer longevity spanning two console generations or more, is it not the PC which offers better value?

 

[iroboto]

Ah OK. I was just wondering, so the trade off for speed over precision is worth it? It's been a while since I dabbled with ML (I did a degree in AI but we didn't have ready made libraries or hardware acceleration then!! It was weeks of running epochs for GAs etc). I'm guessing mixed precision doesn't help in this use case.

I guess in the pascal case lol, no.
But generally FP16 is pretty good at handling all cases for Deep Learning NN, the chance of arithmetic overflow and underflow is low (there are methods to sort of work around this as well) there is less need to go FP32 unless precision is super sensitive. Most of the NN are moving to int8 and int4, but you've got to be careful with those ones, you can overflow pretty easily on those, at that point in time you're really optimizing for speed. Otherwise fp16 has a good balance of speed and coverage, you're getting much faster training times on fp16. And if training iteration is critical to your success, most people will move to training faster and forgo precision.

 

[Mobius1aic]

This new cycle is clearly going to encourage/force gamers to upgrade their PCs if they hadn't in the past few years. This past cycle was a lucky break. My i5-4690K will be doomed to pure irrelevancy quite fast. On the GPU side, Lockhart gives my RX 570 4 GB a chance to putter on for a while if I keep my expectations (and settings) in check.

 

[Lalaland]

Why do you need to buy the PC at launch? Do people only buy consoles at launch and never again? Why is the launch so important? If you assume that if you wait a couple of years or less to get a machine that is more powerful for the same money AND that it will give you longer longevity spanning two console generations or more, is it not the PC which offers better value?

If we're talking all of eco system value there is no denying the PCs advantage my point is today for €499 you are not getting more PC than the Xbox Series X and certainly at €299 you are not getting more PC than an Xbox Series S. If we talk about any other time period (I myself pointed to 1-2 years after launch for GPUs in another thread) you can make that argument but this winter and probably next (at least) there is no higher performing way to spend €499/€299.

Different markets, same for the value. IF you go pc, you go for something like a 3070 atleast, yes it will be more expensive, but you also get more performance and can do more with it.
When im building a pc at console launch (i usually dont), i wouldn't try to match a console, but build one thats much more powerfull.
The console is going to be cheaper, but also offer less performance/versitality, you also dont have to replace the whole system in case of a mid gen refresh. Value has different proportions.

Yes if you spend three or four times the cost of consoles you can build a better device, in other news an F1 car out perfoms a Ford Fiesta.

 

[Picao84]

This new cycle is clearly going to encourage/force gamers to upgrade their PCs if they hadn't in the past few years. This past cycle was a lucky break. My i5-4690K will be doomed to pure irrelevancy quite fast. On the GPU side, Lockhart gives my RX 570 4 GB a chance to putter on for a while if I keep my expectations (and settings) in check.

Mostly for the SSD and memory requirements I would say. As for CPU you should still be alright in the next couple of years. Doubt Devs will use all 8 Zen 2 Cores immediately to full capacity.

 

[Picao84]

If we're talking all of eco system value there is no denying the PCs advantage my point is today for €499 you are not getting more PC than the Xbox Series X and certainly at €299 you are not getting more PC than an Xbox Series S. If we talk about any other time period (I myself pointed to 1-2 years after launch for GPUs in another thread) you can make that argument but this winter and probably next (at least) there is no higher performing way to spend €499/€299.


Yes if you spend three or four times the cost of consoles you can build a better device, in other news an F1 car out perfoms a Ford Fiesta.

No you are not getting more PC, but you are taking an opportunity cost. You are exchanging future value you can have in the future in order to have value now. For something which actual value changes heavily with time (unlike say buying a fridge that will always be required to perform the same function in the same way), that is, consciously or unconsciously part of the equation.

 

[Lalaland]

No you are not getting more PC, but you are taking an opportunity cost. You are exchanging future value you can have in the future in order to have value now. For something which actual value changes heavily with time (unlike say buying a fridge that will always be required to perform the same function in the same way), that is, consciously or unconsciously part of the equation.

I don't disagree with this but my point is with €299/€499 in my pocket today, I cannot get better value than a console. If I am willing to save up another few hundred euro I can greatly exceed the performance of a console and get access to the fiercely competitive world on PC games retailing leading to a lower overall lifetime cost.

 

[Picao84]

I don't disagree with this but my point is with €299/€499 in my pocket today, I cannot get better value than a console. If I am willing to save up another few hundred euro I can greatly exceed the performance of a console and get access to the fiercely competitive world on PC games retailing leading to a lower overall lifetime cost.

What you described is actually the economic concept I mentioned above in opportunity cost. It's a hidden cost that does have meaning and can be quantified, hence my insisting on this. You are paying 299 now + what you lose by buying it now (say a PC with 50% more performance at the same price in two years) = 449.

 

[Lalaland]

Yes but opportunity cost is a TCO measurement and I buy consoles and PCs with cash up front (except not for MSwith their frankly incredible 0% rent to own thing). I am fully aware of the ways we can show how the up front cost of a thing does not measure it's total value, I spent years making those very arguments for why you should pay more for the HP device but what those years taught me more than anything is that ont he day the pruchase is to be made the long term life cycle savings are worth $0.00 to me at the register

 

[AlphaWolf]

I would think if you are upgrading a PC, you would do so to coincide with a game launch (one you will be spending a lot of time with) rather than a competitive device launch. So if you are upgrading for cyberpunk, those windows have aligned otherwise your value might be better served in waiting for new content that pushes your pc.

 

[Deleted member 7537]

Consoles +
- Easy to use.
- Cheap.
- Every game built for it for the next 7 years.

Console -
- They only do gaming and entertainment
- Controllers are expensive as f.
- You have to pay to play online
- Occasional deals are OK

PC+
- Flexible, you can perform multiple tasks on them
- You don't have to pay to play online
- Much better deals
- Access to much cheaper & GOOD peripherals.
- Good support of K+M

PC-
- More expensive (but, again, can be used for many different things)
- Less easy to use


I have had a console since I was 8, I missed the last gen and I'm still alive. Would I be alive without a PC? Who knows.

I know it's unlikely to happen, but man I'd love to see it get hacked so that I could make run Windows or even Linux on it. I still fondly remember hacking my original Xbox almost purely to use as an XBMC box.

Heck, I wouldn't mind paying 100-200 USD extra for the XBSS if MS allowed me to install Windows on it.

Regards,
SB

Nah, MS would not allow that because then you'd be buying games on steam or epic store. They would sell a lot of consoles tho.

I though the "OtherOS" feature on PS3 would have become the norm by now. Dreams shattered.

 

[AlphaWolf]

You forgot a big pc negative. Cheating.

 

[AlNom]

True, although there is also CheatEngine, which can be a plus for single player games.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

If you want the best value right now the XSS, XSX and PS5 are it. PCs can't touch it. Mid-cycle the PC might be the better way to go, we'll have to see what happens. Remember that this time PC CPUs will need to be upgraded to keep up with console CPUs now.

 

[Arnold Beckenbauer]

I know it's unlikely to happen, but man I'd love to see it get hacked so that I could make run Windows or even Linux on it. I still fondly remember hacking my original Xbox almost purely to use as an XBMC box.

Heck, I wouldn't mind paying 100-200 USD extra for the XBSS if MS allowed me to install Windows on it.

Regards,
SB

You know, the most time at home I'm using a cheap Windows 10 tablet with Intel x5-z8350 and 2 GB RAM. And for years I hope, that Microsoft would allow to install Windows 10 Home or even S on my Xbox One (OG).

 

[cheapchips]

If you want the best value right now the XSS, XSX and PS5 are it. PCs can't touch it. Mid-cycle the PC might be the better way to go, we'll have to see what happens. Remember that this time PC CPUs will need to be upgraded to keep up with console CPUs now.

I didn't need to upgrade my aging quad core for a couple of years this gen. Technically, I now have an aging quad core again. To replace that with an 8 Core / 16 thread + new MB + memory is going to be at least £400 for today's products. Might be lower in a couple of years. It's still a hefty starting point before you get to a speedy SSD and new GFX card.

The frustrating thing about being in my 40's is that I have loads more disposable income but my family keep disposing of it.