Uncharted 4: A Thief's End [PS4]

[Laa-Yosh]

Also, most people just don't realize the importance of lighting. Setting up a real life movie shot can take hours, carefully balancing the placement, intensity and balance of all the light sources, specific to the camera and actor position and even the pose and facial expressions. One of the lesser known skills for an actor is the ability to move in space in a very specific way, hitting pre-determined positioning and posing so that all the careful preparation work pays off. Then there are the unknown members of the film crew like the focus pullers who need to keep the camera focus change with the actor and so on.

All of this of course is a lot easier to do in a completely digital environment and everything can be adjusted even better. But the problem is that once you give up the control of the camera to the player you'll get even more limited than a film crew. This is the kind of stuff that the above mentioned article refers to as the ability to 'art direct' a trailer.

 

[Billy Idol]

Ok, but what about 30fps versus 60fps?

Are they still targeting 60?

 

[nightshade]

He already voiced his opinion on that two pages ago.

The demo runs at a rock solid 30fps, so the average framerate can be way above that. This long before the release it'd be reasonably good for a 60fps target if they are at something like 40-50fps, which seems to be the case. Also keep in mind that this seems to be significantly more advanced than TLOU's PS4 version, huge environments and more complex character rigs, AI and game mechanics just to name a few - so it wasn't simply just putting some new content into an existing engine. I'd say it's pretty promising to have it at such a good state, actually.

 

[Billy Idol]

I know that Laa-Yosh did and I agree. But it would have been nice if the dev also had a few words on 30fps versus 60fps.

My problem is: if I follow sebbi and his posts correctly, 60fps is super difficult to achieve...you don't just get it as a by-product of your crunch time (only if you brute force with PC hardware). 60fps according to sebbi must be planned from the start and taken into account in every little aspect of the game.

That is why I am wondering a bit: are they targeting 60fps or not? It does not seem to me that this decision can be flipped around multiple times during development of a game: Is it really possible to decide "60fps" or "30fps+extra bling" in the middle of the game development? Shouldn't this be the first tec (+ gameplay) decision a gaming dev team needs to fix?

 

[Phil]

Yes, 60fps needs to be planned for. I think the point was rather, if the game runs at a steady 50fps now (an assumption), it could be that when tasked to show off some lengthy gameplay footage, they decided to lock the framerate to a steady 30fps and not have something with a more variable fluctuating inconsistent framerate.

Personally, I think the 30fps footage could have a few reasons; They [ND] are still contemplating the cost of 60fps vs. extra complexity (either gameplay, AI, or visuals or a combination of everything), so in order not to get expectations too high if they do decide to go 30fps but with more complex visuals/gameplay, people will be less disappointed. Having the gameplay footage at 30fps may also help them to gauge the general feel of what fans think. Offering both in TLoU was a great idea - but they've also put themselves in a difficult position; There are those that want/demand 60fps and those that are happy with the tradeoff. Deciding which way to go will prove to be tricky. Best thing is, is if they can achieve 60fps at what they are showing. If they can't because they overshot the target just slightly, they might make up for it with added visuals (like Drive Club).

I wouldn't be holding my breath for 60fps. Visuals sell sadly and I think this will end up being the crucial factor in the end (especially after some cries about downgrades after showing the gameplay footage).

 

[nightshade]

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of those situations where they say they want to target 60FPS but the game launches 30FPS. Like Driveclub or Dying Light

 

[VFX_Veteran]

Me either. I pay more attention to the trend from other released games. 1080p/30fps seems to be the norm for the kind of graphics we are seeing. I personally think that ND's presentation is on the low end of that 30fps (meaning they got a rock solid 30 but it's more in the 30s unlocked). They are doing a lot of things to the collision, AI, and overall gameplay -- which costs FPS.

 

[Billy Idol]

I wouldn't be holding my breath for 60fps. Visuals sell sadly and I think this will end up being the crucial factor in the end (especially after some cries about downgrades after showing the gameplay footage).

This could indeed happen. After the outcry all over the place (even ND fanboys DF weren't overly happy with the graphics) they could change their target during development...I guess it is much simpler to switch from a 60 Hz to a 30Hz target during dev time and use the spare cycles to pump up the visuals as good as it is possible...

 

[ultragpu]

The game in its current form really doesn't look too hot for a 30fps ND game, I say they should totally forget about 60fps target whatsoever and really try to crank up the graphics and wow us to the fullest. The lighting in almost all other Sony exclusives have been amazing including KZ, Infamous, DriveClub and The Order, but somehow UC4's lighting in the demo is average in comparison. Very ironical since ND is in direct collaboration with ICE so shouldn't things be more ready than the others?

 

[Phil]

I couldn't disagree more with your take ultragpu, not even close. Further more - after so many ND games, I'm not sure there's a developer I trust more in delievering a very good game experience. Even if it turns out that there are other games that apparently look better at the same resolution and framerate - lets not forget that other attributes like A.I. and scope and scale require resources as well. Nothing is for free. They've decided to go with dense foliage (and obviously large scale environments) and embed that in the gameplay mechanics (as stated above, it's part of the stealth gameplay). This in itself will cost resources. Just because some prefer corridor type visuals with denser foliage (think of an Alien Isolation type setting, when instead of walls, you have dense trees and a draw distance of maximum 50meteres) shouldn't mean ND should have to downgrade whatever framerate overhead they have and crank up the graphics to wow us to the fullest.

I know this is a technlogical orientated forum, but it pains me that people are more interested and excited about shaders/textures/lighting mambojumbo *insert next keyword* than exciting new gameplay or AI features.

And not to mention; The teaser wowed everyone - and from what has been stated, it's the same engine using the same resources, albeit in a different time setting, at a completely different part of the game, the former being a highly polished teaser with lots of art-direction as a teaser should and another being a 15 minute gameplay segment with the aim to show off... gameplay?

 

[London Geezer]

The game in its current form really doesn't look too hot for a 30fps ND game, I say they should totally forget about 60fps target whatsoever and really try to crank up the graphics and wow us to the fullest. The lighting in almost all other Sony exclusives have been amazing including KZ, Infamous, DriveClub and The Order, but somehow UC4's lighting in the demo is average in comparison. Very ironical since ND is in direct collaboration with ICE so shouldn't things be more ready than the others?

Keyword: in its current form.
And even then, I don't agree with everything you are saying. Even from the short gameplay video, there are some touches that I have not seen in any other game. And not to take anything away from them, but you can't really compare UC4 to KZ (never had to render something as detailed as Drake and most of its settings were very, very closed quarters), Infamous (as gorgeous as it was, it didn't really pack the amount of detail UC4 does even this early), Driveclub (racing game??) and The Order (mostly grey and all of its resources are obviously going into the characters and set pieces, with nowhere near the amount of things on screen as even the most average bit of the jungle in UC4).
Point is, don't judge ND now, with or without ICE. The game is a whole year away - if it even sticks to the schedule.

 

[ultragpu]

Well of course I'm far from writing off uc4, I do think it has some nice foliage, models and more open gameplay environment, but I'm just disappointed it's lacking that nextgen lighting and post processing effects, maybe they'll get all those in later on but currently I'm just not as hyped. Just saying.

 

[London Geezer]

Well of course I'm far from writing off uc4, I do think it has some nice foliage, models and more open gameplay environment, but I'm just disappointed it's lacking that nextgen lighting and post processing effects, maybe they'll get all those in later on but currently I'm just not as hyped. Just saying.

Post processing is, as far as I understand, one of the last things to be added.

I just have so much faith in ND that I'd be extremely surprised if they don't deliver. Look at their track record.

 

[L. Scofield]

ND isn't a fan of post processing so you can forget about it. Lighting in the demo is bland because that's how ambient lighting looks like.

 

[scf]

Compare different time of day in driveclub: early morning or sunset time looks "better" than noon.

 

[rockaman]

ND isn't a fan of post processing so you can forget about it. Lighting in the demo is bland because that's how ambient lighting looks like.

Yep, ND doesn't swing that way, and it's good for the game.... to see what's on screen

Even in all the Uncharted games they poke fun at the "next gen filters" with the bonus unlockables. You can smear all the graphics with as much brown and blandness as you want if one wants to play it that way... after you beat the game playing it the proper way of course

Excess post-processing and excessive lighting that bleeds all over the screen and massive unrealistic contrast.... that's for developers who are not ND who don't know how to make colour accurate reproductions using realtime graphics

 

[VFX_Veteran]

ND isn't a fan of post processing so you can forget about it. Lighting in the demo is bland because that's how ambient lighting looks like.

Well they certainly use dynamic exposure to good effect..

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Lighting in the demo is bland because that's how ambient lighting looks like.

Here's ambient lighting that isn't at all bland:
http://cdn3.dualshockers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/TomorrowChildren01.jpg?eaa32f

The reason the demo looks bland is because the lighting model isn't particularly sophisticated (at the moment) with weak secondary illumination. That's probably something that can't be addressed with a 60 fps target.

 

[nightshade]

ND isn't a fan of post processing so you can forget about it. Lighting in the demo is bland because that's how ambient lighting looks like.

Well they did add object motion blur and a fast and good looking SSAO that ran on Cell for UC2 as well dynamic DoF which was the best for its time on consoles and exposure, and the light shafts both post processed and volumetric ones in UC3.

 

[L. Scofield]

Here's ambient lighting that isn't at all bland:
http://cdn3.dualshockers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/TomorrowChildren01.jpg?eaa32f

The reason the demo looks bland is because the lighting model isn't particularly sophisticated (at the moment) with weak secondary illumination. That's probably something that can't be addressed with a 60 fps target.

Bad comparison. In the U4 demo the main light source is a hemisphere light, the sky. In the Tomorrow Children render, there's the hemisphere light (blue) AND a very strong directional light coming from the left (yellow) which is the one that gives depth to the image.

Well they did add object motion blur and a fast and good looking SSAO that ran on Cell for UC2 as well dynamic DoF which was the best for its time on consoles and exposure, and the light shafts both post processed and volumetric ones in UC3.

The motion blur used in U2 was pretty much non-existent during gameplay and absolutely non-existent in the pre-rendered cutscenes.