Trusted Computing Platform Alliance...thoughts?

[Frank]

The advertizing is: no more spam, no more virusses, no more information leaks. Make Word documents that are only readable by the people you select, and will self-destruct after a week. Or retroactively destroy the works and e-mails from a dissatisfied employee. You retain full ownership of all information you produce, even after it is distributed.

For the content industry: we will guarantee payment and distribution. And you get a large range of payment options to choose from, like pay-per-use, monthly payments to prevent deletion, multiple subscription models and of course single payment before first use. It will be totally impossible to access your content before payment is made, we can guarantee that.

For the IT-managers: management of all your computers is completely automated, distribution of software, patches and upgrades happens automatic and becomes totally transparent. Virusses, spyware and trojans don't have a chance to spread. And standards and policies can be enforced absolutely, throughout all computers owned by your company.

And for the gamer: you will see a much larger amount of quality games, the PC will become the gaming platform of choice and will trounce the consoles as the preferred development platform for game producers, so no more games with consolitis.

Win / win, yes?

 

[Frank]

Does anyone have any tech docs/articles on how deep TC is embedded in longhorn?

'Trusted Computing' Frequently Asked Questions

Microsoft Next-Generation Secure Computing Base - Technical FAQ

 

[silence]

For the IT-managers: management of all your computers is completely automated, distribution of software, patches and upgrades happens automatic and becomes totally transparent. Virusses, spyware and trojans don't have a chance to spread. And standards and policies can be enforced absolutely, throughout all computers owned by your company.

Win / win, yes?

This is only place where i dont think it will pass that easy. Put yourself in shoes of IT manager in major corp and if there is a leak... who will be blamed? you, cause you were the one that decided to trust these new things....

i really think many IT managers will think more then once before opening their complete networks for this alliance.... yes, everything is automated, but you still have someone higher then you....

lets say your company makes something really new and advanced... would you risk it? you ass is on the line there, you are the one that decided to go for this....

and govermants also.... there are simply too many backdoors this way.

if PC manufacturers lose corporate/govermant contracts..... they will rethink if they really want this... at least thats how i see it.

there are advantages for some lazy IT manager, but who will take the fall when company secrets get out? would you install that on every comp in company where you are IT manager?
i know i wouldnt.

Longhorn takes waaaay too much time to develop (IMO) and they stripped it down so much it wont be 30% of they intended when it ships (and when is BIG question)....i wonder why....

dunno....i have a funny feeling about this....


EDIT ::

1. What is TC - this `trusted computing' business?

The Trusted Computing Group (TCG) is an alliance of Microsoft, Intel, IBM, HP and AMD which promotes a standard for a `more secure' PC. Their definition of `security' is controversial; machines built according to their specification will be more trustworthy from the point of view of software vendors and the content industry, but will be less trustworthy from the point of view of their owners. In effect, the TCG specification will transfer the ultimate control of your PC from you to whoever wrote the software it happens to be running. (Yes, even more so than at present.)

as i already pointed there are lots of rumors about IBM switching to Linux completlly around timeframe when TC should arrive...coincidence?

 

[Frank]

i really think many IT managers will think more then once before opening their complete networks for this alliance.... yes, everything is automated, but you still have someone higher then you....

lets say your company makes something really new and advanced... would you risk it? you ass is on the line there, you are the one that decided to go for this....

and govermants also.... there are simply too many backdoors this way.

if PC manufacturers lose corporate/govermant contracts..... they will rethink if they really want this... at least thats how i see it.

there are advantages for some lazy IT manager, but who will take the fall when company secrets get out? would you install that on every comp in company where you are IT manager?
i know i wouldnt.

They get some seriously powerful tools to make sure security is much better! Let's say a document or e-mail has leaked: just revoke your key on it and it turns instantly into a bunch of random bits. But yes, the Big Brother feeling is mighty strong, so it might make them feel very uncomftable. Especially because a lot of things can only be done by asking Microsoft or the other software distributors to do it.

as i already pointed there are lots of rumors about IBM switching to Linux completlly around timeframe when TC should arrive...coincidence?

Yes, while IBM was the first to put TC computers and other hardware on the market, it seems they will be the first ones to completely turn away from it as well. And they are one of the first nowadays to publish warnings for Wintel products, like SP2.

 

[silence]

They get some seriously powerful tools to make sure security is much better! Let's say a document or e-mail has leaked: just revoke your key on it and it turns instantly into a bunch of random bits. But yes, the Big Brother feeling is mighty strong, so it might make them feel very uncomftable. Especially because a lot of things can only be done by asking Microsoft or the other software distributors to do it.


Yes, while IBM was the first to put TC computers and other hardware on the market, it seems they will be the first ones to completely turn away from it as well. And they are one of the first nowadays to publish warnings for Wintel products, like SP2.

we all know that Japan, South Korea and China joined into making Linux based OS for their markets, it is also known that China ordered complete move to their version of Linux in next few years....

i am not so sure that _ANY_ govermant would like to have M$ having higher authority over their documents then themselves.... dunno, as i said, there are lots of things that are currentlly going on and if you think about it might be very well connected to this.....

yes govermant gets powerfull tool, but it isnt in full control of that tool, there is someone over their head that can do what he likes with their docs....

i rather wont use computer then have this kind of shit in my living room...
and as for inovations and research... how the fuck can you research when some TCG alliance can check all your work?

its weird.... i can see M$ into it and everything.... now lets look at one other thing for example....
IBM just sold its PC business to Lenovo, in which chinese govermant has high stakes.... i have no doubt they would cut their prices so much they would even work with loss, just to sell all these fancy TC comps in US....

now imagine chinese Politbiro with master server that has encryption keys..... this will turn VERY ugly somewhere along the line....

 

[Frank]

I just dont get that part where in the slides they talk about Stallman...someone care to elaborate that for me?

Stallman is the Father of OpenSource. "Free as in Freedom of speech, not as in free beer", is to clearly distinguish between being free to do what you want, not that you should be able to copy everything illegally. You decide what you do and pay for. That's why they dropped "Free software" as the name for it.

its weird.... i can see M$ into it and everything.... now lets look at one other thing for example....
IBM just sold its PC business to Lenovo, in which chinese govermant has high stakes.... i have no doubt they would cut their prices so much they would even work with loss, just to sell all these fancy TC comps in US....

now imagine chinese Politbiro with master server that has encryption keys..... this will turn VERY ugly somewhere along the line....

Now THAT might be a very good argument against it. The institute that owns the master key database already knows in minute detail what you do all day with your computer, even if they don't look at the content of the documents. It would be a wet dream to many people to own and be able to use that information (even to sell it to marketeers), and there will be no end to the politicking about who owns it.

This has some interesting implications for national security. At a TCG symposium in Berlin, I put it this way: in 2010 President Clinton may have two red buttons on her desk - one that sends the missiles to China, and another that turns off all the PCs in China - and guess which the Chinese will fear the most? (At this point, a heckler from the audience said, `What about the button that turns off the PCs in Europe?') This may be an exaggeration, but it's only a slight one. Technology policy and power politics have been intertwined since the Roman empire, and prudent rulers cannot disregard the strategic implications of TC. It would be rather inconvenient for a government to have to switch all its systems from Windows to GNU/linux, and at the height of an international crisis.

...and what about the Chinese button that turns off all US computers?

 

[silence]

...and what about the Chinese button that turns off all US computers?

8) ...hmmmm..... could US corporate greed dig a grave for itself and even the US itself?

It would be rather inconvenient for a government to have to switch all its systems from Windows to GNU/linux, and at the height of an international crisis.

is this why Japan, South Korea and China are working together on Linux based OS? and why is China ordered all its govermant agnecies to move to Red Flag Linux in next couple years?

interesting times might be ahead of us.....

 

[rashly]

Linus has stated that DRM and the like will be incorporated into future linux kernels.

Obviously it will remain open source, so it can be taken out, but I forsee the vast majority of linux distros (the ones looking to make some money, at least) coming with this as default.

 

[silence]

DRM is one thing, giving up control of your computer to someone holding master key is something completlly different.

who will decide who controls all the keys? TCG?.... that would give them power over govermants, which is something i am not so sure govermants want.

lemme put it this way.... M$ just got hit pretty badly by EU, what if M$ had the keys to all EU comps?.... do you see govermants really giving such power to corporations?

 

[Frank]

Linus has stated that DRM and the like will be incorporated into future linux kernels.

Obviously it will remain open source, so it can be taken out, but I forsee the vast majority of linux distros (the ones looking to make some money, at least) coming with this as default.

Original thread

Very interesing read.

 

[silence]

Original thread

Very interesing read.

interesting indeed.....

 

[suryad]

I am quite uncomfortable with the idea that someone will be monitoring my computer usage...that is kind of akin to what the Patriot Act is to me. It is a complete and utter access to your own personal freedoms. I dont know if this Trusted Computing is a good idea. I do not know for sure right not because Longhorn is not even out yet whether this feature will result in higher quality code, enhanced security, less bugs, higher performance so on. I mean my computer is my computer, it does not have illegal stuff on it and so thats ok...I dont need to be told what to install on my puter and what not to. I might be misinterpreting this whole thing but frankly I am just getting a bad feeling. DiGuru, your post about the win/win situation seems to optimistic to me frankly hehe. I hope you are right but I doubt it.

 

[ANova]

For the content industry: we will guarantee payment and distribution. And you get a large range of payment options to choose from, like pay-per-use, monthly payments to prevent deletion, multiple subscription models and of course single payment before first use. It will be totally impossible to access your content before payment is made, we can guarantee that.

I know I'm really looking forward to $20 per view or $5 a month just for having it on my computer.

For the IT-managers: management of all your computers is completely automated, distribution of software, patches and upgrades happens automatic and becomes totally transparent. Virusses, spyware and trojans don't have a chance to spread. And standards and policies can be enforced absolutely, throughout all computers owned by your company.

Not necessarily a good thing. Suppose one of those patches breaks something and causes your computer to crash. Now you come home intending to write up a paper due the next day and your computer no longer works, nor do you know why since the process is "totally transparent." Which brings us to the next problem. If someone somehow managed to find a hole somewhere then they could basically install a keylogger without you knowing it. Or, and this is for you conspiracy theorists, what's to stop MS or some other company from snooping or installing their own piece of software for malicious intent?

And for the gamer: you will see a much larger amount of quality games, the PC will become the gaming platform of choice and will trounce the consoles as the preferred development platform for game producers, so no more games with consolitis.

Ummm, where does this come from? Game makers aren't hurting for money right now buddy, nor will DRM magically update your hardware to run all games smoothly.

Win / win, yes?

Win/Loss
content industry/consumers

DRM is all about making more money and having more power disguised as the be all end all cure all to viruses and spam. Nothing more.

 

[Frank]

I am trying to show both sides, so the advertizing post was my way to be impartial. It does not mean that I agree with the content.

Btw. TC is among us already. DRM? Windows Media Player 9/10. Process protection and licensing? Windows Server 2003. Fritz chip and the whole bunch? XboX. Etc, etc.

 

[suryad]

Thats quite intriguing what you said DiGuru about the DRM in WMP 9/10...I didnt think about that...

 

[Guden Oden]

Thing is, with WMP9/10, there's a nice little checkbox that turns the whole DRM shit OFF, and it's even disabled as default as I believe.

 

[silence]

Thing is, with WMP9/10, there's a nice little checkbox that turns the whole DRM shit OFF, and it's even disabled as default as I believe.

thing is....WMP just got uninstalled from my comp, i dont use it anyway, there are many much better media players.....

 

[Frank]

Ever tried to install a driver, and got the warning: "This driver is not digitally signed / certified. Are you sure you want to install it?" Or "Do you want to trust the certificate of this website?", while browsing?

On Windows Server 2003 you already have the option to disallow anything that isn't properly certified. That is basically how TC works, and why anyone who wants their stuff to run on Longhorn needs to buy a certificate from Microsoft.

 

[silence]

Ever tried to install a driver, and got the warning: "This driver is not digitally signed / certified. Are you sure you want to install it?" Or "Do you want to trust the certificate of this website?", while browsing?

On Windows Server 2003 you already have the option to disallow anything that isn't properly certified. That is basically how TC works, and why anyone who wants their stuff to run on Longhorn needs to buy a certificate from Microsoft.

thats not same as having chip that holds keys to your computer inside and has higher access then yourself.....i can live with what you mentioned above, but i am not sure i gonna use computer that can give access to my files to someone without knowing....

bloody hell, thats why i DO have firewall, AV, anti-spyware and use Firefox...

from what i read TC is like buying computer with preinstalled trojan.... thnx, but i think i'll pass on that offer....

 

[Fox5]

The advertizing is: no more spam, no more virusses, no more information leaks. Make Word documents that are only readable by the people you select, and will self-destruct after a week. Or retroactively destroy the works and e-mails from a dissatisfied employee. You retain full ownership of all information you produce, even after it is distributed.

For the content industry: we will guarantee payment and distribution. And you get a large range of payment options to choose from, like pay-per-use, monthly payments to prevent deletion, multiple subscription models and of course single payment before first use. It will be totally impossible to access your content before payment is made, we can guarantee that.

For the IT-managers: management of all your computers is completely automated, distribution of software, patches and upgrades happens automatic and becomes totally transparent. Virusses, spyware and trojans don't have a chance to spread. And standards and policies can be enforced absolutely, throughout all computers owned by your company.

And for the gamer: you will see a much larger amount of quality games, the PC will become the gaming platform of choice and will trounce the consoles as the preferred development platform for game producers, so no more games with consolitis.

Win / win, yes?

I wonder how long until a virus is made for longhorn that can take control of the functionality and access and delete every file on your computer through a feature already built in to do so...