Trusted Computing Platform Alliance...thoughts?

[suryad]

http://www.cypherpunks.to/TCPA_DEFCON_10.pdf

Check out the link, dont know if it already has been posted but rather interesting I thought. Another reason perhaps not to "upgrade" (if we can call it that) to Longhorn?! I thought the "defeat the GPL" slide section was interesting...thoughts comments anyone?!

PS - Mods if I put this post in the wrong place I apologize. Please move it to the correct forum.

 

[Frank]

The main difference between old copy protection and TCPA: the latter provably works. And the main thing is in the name: a trusted computer is one that can destroy your security, just because you do trust it.

In a nutshell: you need Big Brother to activate each and every thing you want your computer to do. And you reall can't crack it.

But you could still use Linux or another alternative platform, although that will probably be illegal in the US in a few years. It remains to be seen if you can get the stuff you create yourself running on another computer unless you pay a hefty fee.

 

[suryad]

Exactly DiGuru, I do not get a good feeling from all this. I thought computing was supposed to be sort of like a freedom and now they are putting in all these rules and so on. It seems kind of stupid really. I think instead of doing things like this, I think people should be spending more time on how to write more secure code, smaller less complicated kernels, faster OSes, just an evolution of what we are experiencing right now. This is in my opinion kind of ridiculous.

 

[Frank]

Well, the OpenSource people are really working hard to build an even better computing platform all the time. But the old companies, like Microsoft, just want all the money they can (legally) get. Of course. And while the PC market is still growing, most of that is in countries that don't enforce the users to pay for the software they use.

So, if you've got yourself a near monopoly, what are you going to do to make even more money? Build something even better every few years, or enforce your monopoly? What would be seen as the "easy money" by the managers?

If you can get it enforced, you can ask whatever you want and know for sure that everyone has to pay. You make the rules and can effectively write yourself a blank check.

Monopolies held by corporations kill a free market economy.

 

[ANova]

This basically means that MS andd friends will own your computer and tell you what you can and cannot do with it, despite you paying for it and it being in your house.

 

[suryad]

Agreed Anova. Longhorn looks less and less attractive to me. I really do not understand how M$ could believe by curbing the user freedom, their product will sell.

 

[Frank]

Agreed Anova. Longhorn looks less and less attractive to me. I really do not understand how M$ could believe by curbing the user freedom, their product will sell.

It isn't that easy. Why do you think it takes that long to get it out? Not because they can't build it.

They wanted to have the subscription model about ten years ago. But people (companies) refused. It's a hard sell. Only the content industry wants it above all else. Which will be their tump card, as soon as they can get any media (DVD) player running Windows. Which might be mandatory in the near future to be able to watch or listen to anything.

 

[Saem]

Imagine for a moment, if by law, it was required that if you wished to interact with society en masse (at least for electronics and computing) one had to have an open interface standard. One without royalty, unless perhaps there is commercial gain.

It'd be interesting, interoperability would be a first class citizen and lock in would be, well illegal. One would be forced to compete and innovate or they'd stagnate and die. Miming wouldn't work that well since the communication/interface would be open, but everything else, ie. the implementation could be closed.

So one could open an MS office document with any program, so long as that program's creators implemented everything.

The problem with trusted computing is as follows, completely detached from relatiy. In the real world, a lot of things work on the honour system; moreover, no system should be expected to be 100% efficient it's a stupid notion that people have, corruption is a natural state and there are "acceptable" levels of it. Yes, I don't like relativism, but this is more pragmatic or realistic.

Now the dinosaurs that are non-innovaters need to wake up or be woken up.

 

[silence]

well....if u needed reason to migrate to Linux, there it is.
or ... we could just use old comps and vote with our cash. i am certainly not gonna have someone, somewhere having higher access privilages to my comp....

i know i wouldnt buy such computer.... and if people wont buy them, they can kiss their spooky asses goodbye... unless it is enforced by the law, in which case "1984" becomes reality....

we all know they canr read emails, listen to phones, that there are technologies out there that put our privacy aside, but this is waaaaay off.
if they put such chip on mobo.... that mobo is NOT going into my computer...

i'll upgrade before Longhorn and i guess it will be nice platform for a few years, jst as this current comp has served me well for over 2 years now, not to mention that i can all the work i need with it without too much problems...

so if i upgrade and build good machine before Longshit comes out and this get into hardware..... my guess is that i will have to pick the best parts and make it future-proof as much as thats possible...

 

[Frank]

if they put such chip on mobo.... that mobo is NOT going into my computer...

The next generation processors of Intel and AMD are expected to have all the needed Fritz technology on chip.

 

[Guden Oden]

Even if it's there, there's no chance in hell ever EVER it'll get enabled, because we don't live in a police state and when authorities and police can't go inside your home and snoop and root through your stuff there's no friggin way they'll be able to do it with your computer.

If this thing really tries to get pushed through legislation it'll make the processor serial ID controversial look like a nice calm summer day in comparison, there's simply no way anybody in their right mind would accept other people having full and instant access to their computers while they themselves do not. That's just complete crazyness.

I know it's the greedy sociopathic media/software company directors' wet dream to be able to charge for their software on a monthly basis (or perhaps every single time a song is played), and turn off access if the money stops rolling in, but nobody else would go for it. It'll never happen unless big industry stages a coup and ousts the governments of the world and puts us under a military dictatorship; no amount of lobbying money can buy them this legislation as things are now.

 

[suryad]

Well I guess it is a good idea to wait and see what features Longhorn implements. I just hope that AMD or Intel does not implement DRM into their chips...And yeah I would probably go all out and buy a PHAT system and then be happy with XP or Linux installed and make it as much future proof as is possible. I think they are crazy for trying this. I just dont get that part where in the slides they talk about Stallman...someone care to elaborate that for me?

 

[Killer-Kris]

I think this would be enough to push me over into being able to give up gaming on the PC. Shift to consoles for that, and if I don't game on my PC I no longer need Windows, so shift to Linux for that as well.

Now another effect that I think most people seem to neglect is that this all would happen to put adware/spyware/virus writters all out of work. Either that or they'd all spend their time figuring out how to crack the damn thing, and that crack would probably become common knowledge fast enough and life would continue as normal.

And after all, with all that virtualization tech floating around the new chips I could definitely see someone figuring out how to use it to defeat this thing.

 

[Frank]

Now another effect that I think most people seem to neglect is that this all would happen to put adware/spyware/virus writters all out of work. Either that or they'd all spend their time figuring out how to crack the damn thing, and that crack would probably become common knowledge fast enough and life would continue as normal.

And after all, with all that virtualization tech floating around the new chips I could definitely see someone figuring out how to use it to defeat this thing.

Nope. After all, it isn't you who decides what runs. If they pay Microsoft for a certificate and distribution, you won't be able to get rid of it. Sure, it does cost them money, but they get guaranteed results as well. And there is an endless amount of marketeers who will pay very well to get to know things.

 

[silence]

Now another effect that I think most people seem to neglect is that this all would happen to put adware/spyware/virus writters all out of work. Either that or they'd all spend their time figuring out how to crack the damn thing, and that crack would probably become common knowledge fast enough and life would continue as normal.

And after all, with all that virtualization tech floating around the new chips I could definitely see someone figuring out how to use it to defeat this thing.

Nope. After all, it isn't you who decides what runs. If they pay Microsoft for a certificate and distribution, you won't be able to get rid of it. Sure, it does cost them money, but they get guaranteed results as well. And there is an endless amount of marketeers who will pay very well to get to know things.

just imagine marketing campaign paying enough to gain access to the data and then pushing shit on your comp as you work.....

there is no way in the world i would work on such comp.... and leave it open like that.

lets say you working on some new software?..... boooom... 3 days later you find out M$ or someone else just filed patent.....
or..... nah.... this is MY comp. and it will stay that way.

looks like i gonna start downloading Linux manuals and books and few distros to see which is best for my needs....

 

[_xxx_]

If they really "enforce" that on users, they won't sell any more windows machines. It's sure as hell that users will defend themselves by not buying that crap.

And just imagine what HUGE losses the games/movies/music industry will have...

EDIT:
But I guess Linux will also need to comply eventually...scary perspectives for the future.

 

[silence]

If they really "enforce" that on users, they won't sell any more windows machines. It's sure as hell that users will defend themselves by not buying that crap.

And just imagine what HUGE losses the games/movies/music industry will have...

well.... while we know what it is, does "Joe Sixpack" know?
it all depends how they market it..... its quite possible to market that shit like new standard in security "no more trojans that will take over your comp (we have our own), no more spyware (we wont allow anyone to get for free what he can pay us), no more this or that......BUY!!"

we'll see,i just hope that people will be able to see thru this.


BUT... there is corporate market, most PC manufacturers make their cash selling to big buyers.... i am not so sure corporations outside this alliance will be happy with this idea... and that might be turning point for them to switch to Linux.... if you were CEO of BMW would you _REALLY_ want all your data on all your computers being accessable by someone who might like to drive Mercedes cars or Porches over your product?

its funny that IBM is supposed to have started to do it already... preparing for things to come?

 

[_xxx_]

well.... while we know what it is, does "Joe Sixpack" know?

I'm pretty sure the media will be VERY vocal about it, so even without knowing technical details, everyone will know that they have no control over their computer anymore.

 

[silence]

as i said, corporate market is the one that might decide the future of this....
i dont see any _smart_ company/corporation outside this alliance that would allow absolute control of their work by someone from outside....

can you see....lets say Halliburton giving access to their CEO's mails with Chaney? or Airbus allowing bunch of american companies to check what they are doing?

and how many govermants will be happy to allow some corporate alliance access to their documnets?.....

hmmmm.... the more you think about it, this might be the biggest push for Linux ever. is M$ that dumb?

 

[sytaylor]

Does anyone have any tech docs/articles on how deep TC is embedded in longhorn?