Toshiba confirms HD-DVD for 360?

[onanie]

Didn't say it couldn't happen. Just saying that Sony could by then mass produce a 6X Blu-ray drive or a 100gig disc.

So before the end of the year sony will have a 6x bluray drive or a 100 gig disc ?

Perhaps as outrageous as "Care to tell me why you don't think its possible for toshiba to have a tri layer disc ready for launch?"

 

[NavNucST3]

Here is a quote from another forum from a member of I believe both this and the avsforum, that they pulled from CED:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul
Especially since the layer spacing needed for dual layer Blu-ray isn't much worse than it is for DVD. This issue though brings up the question of how triple layer HD-DVD can requires 5 times the layer spacing accuracy of dual layer Blu-ray and yet can still be produced. Either Sony is making up excuses for why they are not making dual layer BD-RE/R discs or triple layer HD-DVD is never going to happen.

Two reasons. One reason is that dual layer BD-ROM isn't really that much harder to make than dual layer DVD-ROM in terms of layer spacing since it only requires twice the precision, triple layer HD-DVD requires ten times the precision. As such I think other factors will be far more important in dual layer BD-RE/R than layer spacing.

Actually this is completely wrong. CED published an article about two weeks ago where this claim was debunked. If anyone has a subscription, they can easily verify this.

According to the article:

The physical structure of TL HD DVD is idential to DVD-14, which is a dual layer DVD9 on one side and a single layer DVD5 on the other.

The only difference with TL HD DVD is that the bonding layer is part of the optical path, so all three layers can be read from one side.

Panasonic claimed that because of this, the bonding layer's precision needed impossible tolerances.

However, this claim is incorrect, because the middle spin coated bonding layer in TL HDDVD is sandwiched between the two 0.6mm polycarbonate cover layers. This means that guaranteeing the spin coating thickness is trivial, as long as you maintain contant pressure across the surface of the disc as the bonding layer is spun in and UV cured.

Regular dual layer HD DVD requires +/- 10 microns, and it's estimated that TL requires tightening up the tolerance by only about a micron or two.

In BD if you try spin coating, there is nothing forcing the comformity of the spun cover layer, which results in thickness variations due to the variable centripetal force applied to the resin as you spin the disc (centripetal force is greater the closer to the edge you get).

This ruins the disc by creating something called a "ski jump", where the thickness of the cover layer increases as you get closer to the outer edge. Worse, dual layer BD requires tolerances on the order of +/- 1 or 2 microns.

There is a special process to compensate for this problem in the works, but it's complicated, multi-step, and tricky to implement, which is why BD duplicators are still using thin film application instead of spin coating, resulting in BD manufacturing being both slow and expensive.

This is all summarized from the article in the CED. The credibility of articles published in the CED is up to you to decide.

This may or may not answer some of the questions.

 

[jvd]

Didn't say it couldn't happen. Just saying that Sony could by then mass produce a 6X Blu-ray drive or a 100gig disc.

So before the end of the year sony will have a 6x bluray drive or a 100 gig disc ?

Perhaps as outrageous as "Care to tell me why you don't think its possible for toshiba to have a tri layer disc ready for launch?"

Because everything i've read points to it def being possible and that support for it will be in the standard before its launched. 4 or 8 layers on bluray wont be in the standard since they are still having trouble with it in the labs . So while such a disc may exist in the future not all drives will be able to read it (much like cds )

 

[onanie]

Because everything i've read points to it def being possible and that support for it will be in the standard before its launched. 4 or 8 layers on bluray wont be in the standard since they are still having trouble with it in the labs . So while such a disc may exist in the future not all drives will be able to read it (much like cds )

May i have links to your sources? With regards to BD, what sort of "trouble" in the labs?

I only have the BD press release to offer. "Blu-ray companies have successfully demonstrated 200GB discs in a laboratory environment".

 

[jvd]

For sources see above and the 22 page hd-dvd vs bluray thread from awhile back .


All the press releases from sony on the 4 and 8 layers is that htey are in the labs that is all . 4 layers will provide much more trouble than 3 layers and 8 layers will provide much more trouble than 4 layers .

 

[mckmas8808]

4 or 8 layers on bluray wont be in the standard since they are still having trouble with it in the labs .

I guess TDK aren't having these problems that you are talking about. Look at thier press release.

Hideki Hirata, TDK Engineering Manager, noted, “Anticipation surrounding the release of the bare Blu-ray Disc format continues to grow. Although there’s been considerable speculation regarding next-generation Blu-ray Disc capacities, TDK is the first to successfully achieve 100GB in a working, prototype disc. TDK’s development of a prototype 100GB Blu-ray Disc with double the recording speed of the current specification validates the company’s position as a leader in extending the capabilities of optical media.â€

TDK Advancements Unlock Blu-ray Disc’s Potential

TDK technologies are redefining state-of-the-art optical media specifications and performance. The company’s advanced sputtering technology played a key role in enabling the creation of the prototype100GB Blu-ray Disc. Additionally, TDK’s new inorganic film formulation provides absolute stability with narrow track pitches and high recording densities, such as those employed by the Blu-ray Disc format. The formulation’s optical qualities are so stable that TDK has already been able to achieve 6x (216Mbps) recording speed in the lab with blue laser media.

So, like I said don't be surprised to see this on the market too.

Link http://www.tdk.com/tecpress/20050606_100gbluelaser.html

 

[jvd]

Heh the 4 layer discs need durabis which is very very expensive to protect the disc .

http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/index.cfm?go=news.view&news=4754

and according to that link there is still no standard , hmmm wonder why ? Must be all roses that they wouldn't have the standard all rapped up for the first units shipping .

The disc, unveiled at a TDK exhibition in Tokyo this week, can record data at 72Mbps (megabits per second), double the 36Mbps rate for current Blu-ray Discs. TDK increased the write speed by using a more powerful laser and making some changes to the material of the disc's recording layer.

Oh and here it goes on to talk about the more powerfull laser needed (i.e even more expensive for the bluray player itself ) and the changes to the material of the disc's recording layer .


Opens up so many questions . Can the old lower intensity lasers read the new changes to this disc ? Will the whole drive need to be revamped for this new disc substance ? How great will the yields be on tehse new more powerfull lasers that they have to use .



The tri layer hd-dvd discs are a reality on the other hand and require a small tweak to the laser of the hd-dvd drive

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The fact TDK have one working prototype doesn't mean they've perfected the technology suitable for cheap mass production though, and there might be a long way to go to perfect the technology.

 

[mckmas8808]

The fact TDK have one working prototype doesn't mean they've perfected the technology suitable for cheap mass production though, and there might be a long way to go to perfect the technology.

You're right, but I was just pointy out the truth. Alot of people read and carry information from this site to other forums. I want the masses to be informed all the way around. From both sides.

If someone on here is going to talk about tri-layered discs for HD-DVD, then I will provide info on quad-layered discs for Blu-ray and 6X BD disc also.

 

[jvd]

The fact TDK have one working prototype doesn't mean they've perfected the technology suitable for cheap mass production though, and there might be a long way to go to perfect the technology.

correct .

From what i've read it sounds like


4 layer bluray discs are very achivable in the next 2 or 3 years . However they will need the durbris coating , a new burning layer substance and more powerfull lasers .

The other thing is these are 25g layers , not 30. That means more layer changes .


Though on the hd-dvd side you need 3 layer changes for 45 gigs vs 2 on bluray for 50gigs .

But i highly doubt we will see more than 2/3 for a long time . 3 sounds like it wont cost more to make its simply a layer on the other side of the disc that can be read from the same side as the other 2 and a tweak to the beam to make it just a bit more powerfull . 2 layers on bluray seems to be done with the same laser power as the single layer .

 

[cthellis42]

how about this one . Toshiba and ms have been going back and forth with pricing . Ms didn't feel the cost was enough .

That's what I mean, though. If they were in ANY kind of continuing price discussion--and if they were still talking to developers about their desires or needs--there would have been NO reason to announce anything definite regarding their optical drive at E3 (gamers don't care about the specifics except in "will it play my old games?" and "will it play movies?" ways. And if the hubbub behind the scenes would be still talking up the possibility of HD-DVD getting in, so much the better for them) and most especially NO reason for Bill Gates to say something definite now. Companies simply don't do that while they're in talks--unless they're being extremely heavy-handed to get the best deal. MS doesn't really do that, though, in my experience; they don't have to.

We can make up a number of contrived situations, but your examples don't really synch, and MS is not conducting business in an information vacuum.

Gave some points above . I can add this though. Ms could have used e3 as a push to get toshiba to lower the price. Hey look at us toshiba , we will go ahead with standard dvd if you don't give us the price we want and toshiba caved . Or what i said above .

...being exactly what I said in my previous post. But when has MS pulled a tactic like this before, and why would they now? Just how much pressure do they think they'd be putting on Toshiba that way? MS wants to out Sony this gen and they have a bigger well to draw from than anyone else, so if they really think HD-DVD is worth it and will give them an additional edge, just what benefit do they get from trying to squeeze Toshiba as much as they can and risk the deal from falling through? We've both said Toshiba would likely give them as good a deal as possible anyway, as undoubtedly they see the PS3/Blu-Ray combo as a threat to their format.

I don't think its something people want . I really don't want a hd-dvd drive nor a bluray drive right now as in a year or two either or may not exist anymore .

...which is exactly what MS was saying at E3 and they'd look goofy falling back on now. They specifically stated "there's no reason to go with something else now, when we can simply go with "the winner" when there is one. Personally I don't agree with it, as even if Blu-Ray or HD-DVD is incompatible with a unified drive or the "winner's format" in the future, I will still own the console, have it hooked up to my best TV, and own the physical media... Why would I care if I buy different movies later on? Or have another player hooked up in the future? (Which one is likely to anyway if just for quality's sake and better movieplay-specific options.) It might hurt the adopter for having to provide future support (which is why I assume MS doesn't to go out on that limb) for the next few generations, but that doesn't affect me at all--just their bottom line.

But your right , it will upset me if a few months later they put out another model that doesn't have a large price preimum . All things being equal i would pay 50-100$ more and just get the hd-dvd drive . It would be easier to swallow if it lost the format war than if i spent 500$ on a stand alone. To me it would be a 50-100$ hd-dvd player .

...which is why I don't really see it coming in as base or even any time soon. Not only would it annoy some folk, but it still wouldn't be anywhere near the "winning format." Unless talks can actually unify the formats soon (which they don't seem to be able to come to terms on), that's going to need way more than a year to decide.

If nothing else, though, I suppose Toshiba could be working out proper support with Microsoft before the 360 comes out to bring out an external USB drive or the like that could be used with PC's and the 360 immediately. (Which likely Sony wouldn't do, as they'd rather push the PS3 first, their set-top players and recorders from them and their partners afterward, and their PC-building supporters after that, rather than have any kind of universal external drive.)

Contradict ? No , don't think so . Think of it like the ram everyone was bummed out about the 256 and then ms upped it to 512 and looked good for it .

That's not what it'd be contradicting, though. It's not a simple spec, it's specific statements. If they wanted to, they could have said "we'll have at least a 12x DVD player in the 360, but haven't finalized anything yet" at E3 and been perfectly happy. What they WOULD be directly contradicting are almost all their statements at E3 and since then about the 360's optical drive and HD DVD's console impact in general. Not simply the speed and format support. Quote Ballmer at E3: "There is no HD DVD today. So that's an easy answer. It's not an option...Why decide what medium your console is built on when the medium is set by the movie industry? What's the return?" Quoth Allard at E3: "It just seemed incongruous for us to make a choice that said 'Blue [laser] is the way to go, because nobody's asking for more capacity. Right? That wasn't the high order bid." (This after making a list of what developers wanted, and what the downsides of blue laser tech currently is.) Quote Gates a few days ago: "The initial shipments of Xbox 360 will be based on today’s DVD format. We are looking at whether future versions of Xbox 360 will incorporate an additional capability of an HD DVD player or something else."

Direct. Wholesale. Contradictions. And I can't think at ALL that they'd be saying the things that they've said if they were still in any kind of talks (even low-grade) regarding HD-DVD--only that they made their decisions already, as part of their cost analysis and production timetable, and mapped out exactly how to play it up while downplaying Blu-Ray.

It's simply inconceivable to me that they would say the things that they've said if they have any inkling of making a last-minute swap. No matter what Itagaki wants.

Ms can come out with a huge announcment at tgs and say we've listend to the developers and the fans and have decided to include the high def drive of the future (or something to the affect ).

They could, but it would still be silly after everything they've stood behind. And all the complaints and reasons they've given ARE factual, after all. (No one knows to what extent, though.) I don't think MS is remotely willing to risk as smooth a launch as possible, risking a limit to their headstart on the PS3 (rather than letting Sony take all the risk), and frustrating the bulk of their developers (and especially publishers) just to give Toshiba a push in the format war, no matter how much of a bargain they may get on the drives. It would mainly be their risk for HD-DVD's benefit, as MS can take whatever advantage of the winning side that they want when there IS one, and in the meanwhile plant the risk all on others' heads instead of their own.

There is a marketing hit they'd take from directly comparing the 360 to the PS3 on that front, but obviously it's a risk they've decided they can counteract, or will be more than compensated on the hardware and development front itself.

 

[MechanizedDeath]

Am I the only person who has a problem believing "sources" that are just regular posters on a random forum? I'm talking about both sides on this. TL HD-DVD is no more a commercial reality than 4L BRD. Considering all either camp can do is hype their unreleased products, I don't think you can draw any conclusions about which one is more realistic commercially. But we do know that 4L BRD is 220% bigger than TL HD-DVD. The more BRD layers you get, the bigger the gap grows. With BRD being the only format featured in a next-gen console, and BRD being the clearly better product (it's the truth unless you are planning on retrofitting your current plant...if you own one, that is), do we need this discussion anymore? Is there really a reason we continue to have people defending HD-DVD on here? I sometimes wish BRD was a product from Samsung, or someone other than Sony. Then more people could look at it objectively instead of just doing the fanb fandango. BRD is better than HD-DVD in every category that matters to us consumers. Unless you're being paid by Toshiba, I don't know how you can continue to defend HD-DVD. PEACE.

 

[Sean*O]

It's not better if it will be more expensive for both the industry and the customer.

 

[PC-Engine]

The fact TDK have one working prototype doesn't mean they've perfected the technology suitable for cheap mass production though, and there might be a long way to go to perfect the technology.

You're right, but I was just pointy out the truth. Alot of people read and carry information from this site to other forums. I want the masses to be informed all the way around. From both sides.

If someone on here is going to talk about tri-layered discs for HD-DVD, then I will provide info on quad-layered discs for Blu-ray and 6X BD disc also.

Well if the truth is what you're after then you'll be happy to know that SONY just recently said that Dual Layer BD isn't going to be as easy and cheap as they had thought so they're now thinking about concentrating on only Single Layer BDs that hold 30GBs instead of Dual Layer BDs.

 

[cthellis42]

Am I the only person who has a problem believing "sources" that are just regular posters on a random forum?

Notice how I don't talk up the tech. People tend to pick a side, talk up tech advances on "their side" and make fun of the technical "infeasabilities" of the "other guys."

I prefer to wait until they're actually on the market, and otherwise treat them as roughly equal. (Can be modified by a the number of reputable sources commenting on it, or the frequency of press releases that are supporting it as a soon-to-be-realized rather than a "Hey ma, look at what I can do!" thing.

But hey, what do I know?

 

[PC-Engine]

TL HD DVD is based on DVD-14...4L BD is based on science fiction...

 

[cthellis42]

TL HD DVD is based on DVD-14...4L BD is based on science fiction...

Going all out, are you? Gee, I'd thought you'd at least stick to badmouthing 8-layer Blu-Ray, since TDK already had a 4-layer prototype out--putting at pretty much the same spot as HD-DVD's 3L and 2L/2L hybrid disk. As I remember, both expect them to hit market in 2007. (Though I'm not positive if one or both were announced specifically for those HD-DVD disks yet.)

The costs and capacities of all of the above are, of course, still up in the air right now.

 

[MechanizedDeath]

Well if the truth is what you're after then you'll be happy to know that SONY just recently said that Dual Layer BD isn't going to be as easy and cheap as they had thought so they're now thinking about concentrating on only Single Layer BDs that hold 30GBs instead of Dual Layer BDs.

Sounds fishy. Source?

It's not better if it will be more expensive for both the industry and the customer.

First of all, which one is gonna cost more, BRD or HD-DVD? I'm curious to know if these cost claims are still based on retrofitting vs. new plants. AFAIK, retrofit plants have lower production capacity (takes longer per disc). So, I'd really like to know which format you think costs more.

Second, what the media costs on Day 1 means nothing. Both formats are vying for the 10+ year throne. In less than two years, both formats will cost cents on the dollar. The cost argument is the biggest load of crap, I can't wrap my head around it. All optical media is dirt cheap. The cost to the consumers is a red herring. It's only an issue of cost to manufacturers, and if HD-DVD needs new plants to get good production capacity, then I don't see them getting much of a bargain here.

And again, it can't be stressed enough, but HD-DVD can't carry BRD's jockstrap right now. The idle wishing for a 3L disc is pretty lame seeing as the format hasn't even come out yet, and it's already coming up short on capacity. DL will be realistic for both formats, and DL BRD will be 2/3 bigger than DL HD-DVD. HD-DVD apologists are running out of excuses here. PEACE.

 

[jvd]

I don't know what Pc-engine is talking about . I heard they were doing very well cost wise (still very expensive but not crazy expensive ) on the dual layer 23g per layer disc. GIving only 46 gigs but the price was about a third of the 50 gig discs . Which would most likely be better in the end

 

[jvd]

That's what I mean, though. If they were in ANY kind of continuing price discussion--and if they were still talking to developers about their desires or needs--there would have been NO reason to announce anything definite regarding their optical drive at E3 (gamers don't care about the specifics except in "will it play my old games?" and "will it play movies?" ways. And if the hubbub behind the scenes would be still talking up the possibility of HD-DVD getting in, so much the better for them) and most especially NO reason for Bill Gates to say something definite now. Companies simply don't do that while they're in talks--unless they're being extremely heavy-handed to get the best deal. MS doesn't really do that, though, in my experience; they don't have to.

Because the talks stoped only to resume a bit later after e3 . The way I see it going down was . Toshiba went to thier limits at the time , Ms wasn't interested . So talks stopped . Tosishba saw the e3 announcement from sony and how people were prediction the how important that would be in the format wars and decided they needed to lower the price more to make sure they got in

Sony is just one company taking a loss on bluray . So even if bluray and hd-dvd costs the same (which i doubt as bluray uses a smaller more powerfull laser which will be harder to make ) Ms can take a loss and toshiba can take a loss . Which with toshiba taking a loss means ms will take a smaller loss

We can make up a number of contrived situations, but your examples don't really synch, and MS is not conducting business in an information vacuum.

Next gen optical formats are not needed . This isn't a hardrive where the person needs to get ride of the old hardrive to get a new one with more space. You can simply go multi disc and make up the space . I highly doubt u will see a game use the full bluray space . 30 gigs is alot . Your going from barely using 5 gigs to 30gigs ? I doubt it . 1 dvd gets u 8 gigs about . 2 is 16 , 3 is 24. In a 30 -40 hour game who cares about changing a disc once or twice. I highly doubt u will play a 30-40 hour game with out getting up at least once or twice for the bathroom or food or a drink .

The optical drive isn't really important to ms as anything more than a marketing point . The only thing it gives over dvd is high def movies .

MS wants to out Sony this gen and they have a bigger well to draw from than anyone else, so if they really think HD-DVD is worth it and will give them an additional edge, just what benefit do they get from trying to squeeze Toshiba as much as they can and risk the deal from falling through? We've both said Toshiba would likely give them as good a deal as possible anyway, as undoubtedly they see the PS3/Blu-Ray combo as a threat to their format.

For a gaming machine the hardrive is much more important than the new optical drive. Everything game wise that hd-dvd or bluray can give us can be done with dvd drives . Ms found price to be important this round and I'm sure its an advantage they want over sony , to be as close power and feature wise but to beat them greatly in price . They could either improve gaming and thier internet focus with the hardrive or go with movie play back . They went hardrive. Now perhaps things have changed. They could have gotten the hdds cheaper and the hd-dvd cheaper .

Sony seems to be in the smae boat . But had to go bluray before hdd as the company as a whole has alot riding on it .

...which is exactly what MS was saying at E3 and they'd look goofy falling back on now

They would in the eyes of some . In the eyes of the others that don't follow e3 which is the vas majority of casuals they wont . ANd with hd-dvd hitting this holiday they can get a little extra hype though i doubt it will affect sales much since the systems would be limited anyway .

Personally I don't agree with it, as even if Blu-Ray or HD-DVD is incompatible with a unified drive or the "winner's format" in the future, I will still own the console, have it hooked up to my best TV, and own the physical media... Why would I care if I buy different movies later on?

Peronaly i would be pissed if i bought say 10 hd-dvd movies and then 2 years later the only thing i can play it on is a console and be stuck watching them on that one tv that its hooked up too. But hey some people like you may not mind having to buy a movie twice

...which is why I don't really see it coming in as base or even any time soon. Not only would it annoy some folk, but it still wouldn't be anywhere near the "winning format." Unless talks can actually unify the formats soon (which they don't seem to be able to come to terms on), that's going to need way more than a year to decide.

That is why i believe it will either come standard or a second sku at launch or it wont come till 2007ish 2008.

I believe at launch ms can sell a hd-dvd x360 with the head set , remote and a controller for 360$ and it will sell well. It really does seem like sony is giong to hit 400$ (even egm is saying it ) so they can still have a price lead and not take as much of a loss .

If the x360 does cost 375$ with a dvd drive and they were selling it at 300$ and instead put a hd-dvd drive , even if its 100$ added to the cost and the system now costs 475 and they sold at 360$ they will only be loosing 40$ more than they would have in the other configuration

As for your next comment , i see toshiba making an x360 drive , one in which we pull out our dvd drive and put in a hd-dvd drive. Mabye sell it at 100$ or 75$ and be done with it . Which would be good for toshiba i guess .

"There is no HD DVD today. So that's an easy answer. It's not an option...Why decide what medium your console is built on when the medium is set by the movie industry? What's the return?" Quoth Allard at E3: "It just seemed incongruous for us to make a choice that said 'Blue [laser] is the way to go, because nobody's asking for more capacity. Right? That wasn't the high order bid." (This after making a list of what developers wanted, and what the downsides of blue laser tech currently is.) Quote Gates a few days ago: "The initial shipments of Xbox 360 will be based on today’s DVD format. We are looking at whether future versions of Xbox 360 will incorporate an additional capability of an HD DVD player or something else."

The other option is toshiba giving ms the drives at the same price as the 12x dvd drive . Which is really far out there . But then for ms there isn't a down side. They get more space and a high def optical drive for the price of a dvd drive .

As for bills comments as I said , saying anything diffrently now would take the power out of a tgs announcment

It's simply inconceivable to me that they would say the things that they've said if they have any inkling of making a last-minute swap. No matter what Itagaki wants.

As I said , toshiba could have come back out of no where and offer a really good deal ms couldn't pass up.

Its really in toshiba's best intrest to be in the x360 . For ms as I've explained its not a big deal. The only thing they can't make up for is high def movie playback .

Is this the big annoucment ? I dunno , buti t would be big and would help toshiba out alot in the next gen war .