Toshiba confirms HD-DVD for 360?

[NavNucST3]

More ramblings from my brain, since HDMI is in just as short supply in current TVs, what would stop MS from just using firewire as an output method, (my D-VHS player uses firewire copyright protection) and all HD cable boxes have to have firewire on them as well. The number of TVs with firewire is equal to or greater than those with hdmi. Like I said just a general ramble.

Using Firewire? Good question, I don't know much about it (for instance I didn't know it had copy protection). I would presume though, that copyrighted material in the future is going to look for the HDCP flag and if that isn't there in Firewire, then the two schemes might be incompatible. /shrug.

Heres an old article that covers alot:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=2&article_id=417

On the bandwidth point, I thought that the purpose of using H.264 and VC1 was so we could maintain the current bandwidths. How many of us "need" dual link dvi. The bandwidth I get from Comcast is acceptable if nowhere near the highend of the HD bandwidth spectrum. I expect the media conglomerates to stay away from the high end of the spectrum the way they did on DVD. Most of us have seen the issues some players have with "high" bitrates. Anyway to stay partially on topic, if there is a way to implement HD-DVD for us HD early adopters (read: component only TVs)
I am all for it, however, I don't see that being the primary reason for buying one. I have already pre'd two 360's so I could care less, but it would be a bonus.

 

[jvd]

Wouldn't Itagaki have known about this already, and not commented on the 360's lack of an HD medium?

Prob under nda and this is his way of drumming up hd-dvd so when the announcement comes fans will be even more happy ?

Assuming it's a standard...

Oh boy, MS is going to lose a ton of money, raise prices, and/or cut features. This is no different than including a BR drive for the PS3.

Personally, like the BR drive in the PS3, this is useless to me.

The quality of either of these units as playback devices will likely be fairly mediocre to poor.

Luckly it seems like the x360 is already much cheaper than the ps3 . So it may not change anything . But perhaps instead of a 300$ launch it will be 360$

As for the quality , I can live with it for Evil dead , it will surely look better than my standard dvd vesions .... You don't know how crazy this movie makes me , we drove to virgina from new jersey to see a showing of it in the movies last year

Yes, the lack of HDMI/DVI would certainly mean including a HD-DVD drive would be fairly pointless.

Its a diffrent chip than the xenos . How hard could it be to add hdmi or dvi to the chip ? Just ditch vga since u can get a 2$ dvi to vga adapter or a hdmi to vga adapter

 

[Qroach]

Itagaki wouldn't have a clue if MS hasn't made an official annoucement to all the develpers. similar to when they switched from 256 - 512 megs of ram.

 

[Sean*O]

Juicy.

 

[cthellis42]

Sounds like people are splitting hairs on this one, as Microsoft is being pretty definitive in its comments (Even as little as a few days ago he was quoted as saying "The initial shipments of Xbox 360 will be based on today's DVD format. We are looking at whether future versions of Xbox 360 will incorporate an additional capability of an HD-DVD player or something else.") so the real comment is "so what?"

Either it'd be in at launch in the base model or it WOULD be exactly like the Panasonic Q or the PSX or any other "gaming device in an extended media player," which is to say "nifty for people who want the media player a lot and don't mind the price premium" but ultimately "extremely low impact on what the consoles are made for--gaming."

It seems weird that MS would be making the kinds of definitive statements they have been (like Bill's among others, and their E3 comments about the 360, saying it makes no sense to pick an HD DVD format until the format has BEEN decided) if they plan to do anything major--and soon--with it. That's not the typical veil of vagueness companies adopt to keep their bases covered, nor what you'd do if you expect to push out anything big and relatively soon.

 

[jvd]

Sounds like people are splitting hairs on this one, as Microsoft is being pretty definitive in its comments (Even as little as a few days ago he was quoted as saying "The initial shipments of Xbox 360 will be based on today's DVD format. We are looking at whether future versions of Xbox 360 will incorporate an additional capability of an HD-DVD player or something else.") so the real comment is "so what?"

I'm thinking it may be possible at launch for 2 reasons 1) fatimsu or however its spelt saying there will be a big announcement 2) if its not in at launch it really doesn't matter to the majority of users and if its to soon after launch and doesn't carry a high enough preimum alot of people could be pissed . I.e if it comes out in march for 400$ with a hd-dvd player thsoe who bought it just 6 months earlier might be very pissed . If it comes out to late it wont do toshiba any good . Actually unless its packed in from the start it wont really help toshiba at all . So i'm thinking either toshiba is selling at cost to ms or undercost to be in at launch and ms is holding off on announcing so they do it at a big show in toyko where they need a big boost

 

[cthellis42]

It's possible, but MS has and continues to talk actively against the possibility, so IMHO it's not as much a "Toshiba is annoyed at MS for dragging its feet" but a "MS has already committed to a timetable, a price, and a determination." Indeed if it DOES come out later, it won't help Toshiba much and it will mainly be "here's another nifty product!" from MS or a name-recognition add-on, but it wouldn't make squat difference for games. Hence if MS is speaking directly against the possibility for games...

I just don't see it from their comments. Toshiba might be hopeful, but it seems much more like MS has made up its mind.

 

[jvd]

As I said ms may be saying this because what else can they say with out confirming it ?


Tgs is a big show in toyko . If ms says yea we are launching it with hd-dvd in a press release or interview tommorow . It wont make as big of a splash if they did it in toyko at a game show . They may also be seeing still if there are enough hd-dvd drives to make all hd-dvd players in time for launch . If there isn't then they might just go two skus . That is why i think toyko game show is where we will find out def . They still have 5 months of production time . I can't see the dvd drive being hard to change with 3 months left to go

 

[mckmas8808]

Hey guys when do MS have to start mass producing the x360s? I thought they would start in September or October. I didn't think the HD-DVD would be ready by then.

 

[jvd]

Hey guys when do MS have to start mass producing the x360s? I thought they would start in September or October. I didn't think the HD-DVD would be ready by then.

I would think the chips will be entering mass production next month most likely . The casing and everything . THe hardrives and dvd drives will have to go in at least a month before launch . Toshiba wants to launch hd-dvd this holiday season . So i would think they are making drive already

 

[Tap In]

what's the transfer rate in HD/DVD drives?

I thought that a main reason for MS choosing the high speed DVD was for game data to be accessed more quickly?

 

[Sean*O]

It could be a hybrid drive, 12x DVD read, 1x HD-DVD read.

The 360 games might never even use an HD-DVD, but could still have the drives.

 

[Ty]

Luckly it seems like the x360 is already much cheaper than the ps3 . So it may not change anything . But perhaps instead of a 300$ launch it will be 360$

Is the Xbox360 that much cheaper than the PS3? So $60 bucks for a HD-DVD drive? $360 isn't too far away from $399.

As for the quality , I can live with it for Evil dead , it will surely look better than my standard dvd vesions .... You don't know how crazy this movie makes me , we drove to virgina from new jersey to see a showing of it in the movies last year

Lol. You are a nut.

Yes, the PQ would be better than the DVD version.

Its a diffrent chip than the xenos . How hard could it be to add hdmi or dvi to the chip ? Just ditch vga since u can get a 2$ dvi to vga adapter or a hdmi to vga adapter

I have no idea how hard it would be to switch to digital out. aaaaoooo (sp?) had an idea on this but I glanced over it.

 

[Inane_Dork]

what's the transfer rate in HD/DVD drives?

http://www.hddvdprg.com/hddvd/hddvd_3.html
36.55 Mbps = 4.56875 MB/s

I thought that a main reason for MS choosing the high speed DVD was for game data to be accessed more quickly?

Could be. You'd need a 4x HD-DVD drive to surpass a 12x DVD drive's throughput. I don't think that's going to happen before 2006.

 

[cthellis42]

As I said ms may be saying this because what else can they say with out confirming it ?

What? They can say the same thing EVERY company says about the possibility of new technology, and the same thing they've said about price and other things... "We haven't made all the decisions yet, and we're keeping all options in mind. As always, we want to deliver the best experience to our customers at the right price yada yada boilerplate boilerplate..."

When a company says affirmatively "yes" to one thing and definitively "no" to another, I don't usually think they'll be changing their mind this close to unit production.

 

[PC-Engine]

Simultaneous MS Xbox 360 DVD and Toshiba Xbox 360 HD DVD release in Nov...

 

[jvd]

Is the Xbox360 that much cheaper than the PS3? So $60 bucks for a HD-DVD drive? $360 isn't too far away from $399.

Well if we are figuring 60$ for bluray and hd-dvd ? Take out 10ish for a dvd drive ? That means the x360 would cost 425$ going from what that anylist said (375$) so 425 vs the 494 of the ps3 ??? That is if the anylists are right

Lol. You are a nut.

Yes, the PQ would be better than the DVD version.

Only way to be haha . I wasn't excited about any next gen media format till i heard evil dead was coming to hd-dvd and then I said to myself .... Damn i might just have to buy one haha

I have no idea how hard it would be to switch to digital out. aaaaoooo (sp?) had an idea on this but I glanced over it.

I dunno the xenos sends everything to that chip digitaly . So perhaps they can just have the chip pass it through with out converting ?

Could be. You'd need a 4x HD-DVD drive to surpass a 12x DVD drive's throughput. I don't think that's going to happen before 2006

What is the transfer rate of a normal dvd in the hd-dvd drive though ? Also what is hd-dvd launching at ?

What? They can say the same thing EVERY company says about the possibility of new technology, and the same thing they've said about price and other things... "We haven't made all the decisions yet, and we're keeping all options in mind. As always, we want to deliver the best experience to our customers at the right price yada yada boilerplate boilerplate..."

They really can't . Since they made the desicion . They already announced dvd . IF they said oh we are reconsidering it for launch that will be fulling the rumors and all but confirm it . Lot diffrent then if this was pre e3 when nothing was announced and they said they were considering it or looking at the possibilty. The desision was made and now they could be reevaluating .

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I wouldn't base any opinions on Analysts Guesses at costs. PSP was supposed to be what, $300+? And how can you predict the cost to produce chips when Sony are fabbing them themselves and you've got absolutely no idea what the yields are? It's not like Sony are using off-the-shelf components where current price gives an idea of what they'll cost to produce.

The price differences between XB360's components and PS3's components don't seem too great to me. The debate on this matter before has seen PS3 primarily more expensive because of XDR (is that more expensive? Suggestions elsewhere it's cheaper...???), BR, and a few crazy components (3 HDMI, 6 USB etc.)

XB360 with cheaper DVD drive but also +HDD, bought in components where a profit is paid on fabbers...now throw in an HDDVD drive and how can XB360 be so much cheaper?

PRior to this announcement people were saying DVD is great for XB360. Cheaper than BR so the saving can be put towards HDD, extra capacity isn't needed for games, faster transfer rates with a fast DVD drive. Seems some of those same people are now saying HDDVD would be a great improvement, and still result in a much cheaper piece of hardware than PS3 :?

Okay, if Toshiba are basically throwing HD-DVD drives away for free, MS will have the saving. But if Toshiba are willing to do that, why not just release their own dirt-cheap $150 HDDVD player, take a loss on sales, and gain on the HDDVD revenues?

So I can't see HDDVD being a cheap option for XB360. In a hybrid player, perhaps (Toshiba release HDDVD player + inbuilt XB1?) or an expensive media-edition XB360 (which was always on the cards) but not in the main hardware, and definitely not being $100 cheaper than PS3!

 

[jvd]

I wouldn't base any opinions on Analysts Guesses at costs. PSP was supposed to be what, $300+? And how can you predict the cost to produce chips when Sony are fabbing them themselves and you've got absolutely no idea what the yields are? It's not like Sony are using off-the-shelf components where current price gives an idea of what they'll cost to produce.

Sony takes a loss on each unit sold here in the usa and they sell them for 250$ so I don't see that being to far off .

Anylists have info that we don't have most o

f the time sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong .

The price differences between XB360's components and PS3's components don't seem too great to me. The debate on this matter before has seen PS3 primarily more expensive because of XDR (is that more expensive? Suggestions elsewhere it's cheaper...???), BR, and a few crazy components (3 HDMI, 6 USB etc.)

cpu will cost more as the x360 cpu is smaller , gpu is in one part and will have worse yields than the 2 smaller chips of the xenos , the ram should be more expensive , the pcb / mobo will be more expensive more traces to more outputs nad inputs

XB360 with cheaper DVD drive but also +HDD, bought in components where a profit is paid on fabbers...now throw in an HDDVD drive and how can XB360 be so much cheaper?

Lots of reasons . Hdd is a small hardrive and shouldn't be very expensive to make . Manufacturers sell hardrives to us at 50$ after packaging , shipping and other costs including the stores money off it and they are of bigger quanitys to boot . We don't know the price of the drive. I've rumbled about it before that i think the dvd drive + hdd combine would be about the same as the bluray drive . The hd-dvd drive itself would most likely be cheaper as the blue laser in the bluray drive is smaller and will be harder to produce .

PRior to this announcement people were saying DVD is great for XB360. Cheaper than BR so the saving can be put towards HDD, extra capacity isn't needed for games, faster transfer rates with a fast DVD drive. Seems some of those same people are now saying HDDVD would be a great improvement, and still result in a much cheaper piece of hardware than PS3

Dvd is still great . I will still be very happy with dvd . I will however be pissed off if they release a hd-dvd xbox 360 for a small price preimum shortly after launch . I would want a x360 with a hd-dvd drive at launch next to a standard dvd unit so I have a choice . Or a hd-dvd unit awhile after launch lext next holdiay season . Not very shortly after launch. Idealy they would either make it all hd-dvd or just hold off on the hd-dvd units .
As for it still being cheaper , I just used the posters numbers . If you don't agree that is your right . As I said , I said using the anylists numbers and if they are right that is what it would work out to factoring the 60$ the poster claimed a hd-dvd drive would cost .

Okay, if Toshiba are basically throwing HD-DVD drives away for free, MS will have the saving. But if Toshiba are willing to do that, why not just release their own dirt-cheap $150 HDDVD player, take a loss on sales, and gain on the HDDVD revenues?

How do you know they aren't doing both ? Do you have inside info of toshiba's hd-dvd launch ? We don't know what the plans are . I'm thinking toshiba wants the clout of ms using it in thier new console just like sony wants the cloat of bluray in thiers . Not only that but if it is standard in all x360s by the time the ps3 even launches it will be in a few million x360s sold around the world + the units they sell in pcs and stand alone playback players .

So I can't see HDDVD being a cheap option for XB360. In a hybrid player, perhaps (Toshiba release HDDVD player + inbuilt XB1?) or an expensive media-edition XB360 (which was always on the cards) but not in the main hardware, and definitely not being $100 cheaper than PS3!

Why can't it be cheaper than a ps3 ? Can you show me the costs of both ? We don't know the factors involved if such a deal exists . Toshiba may be willing to sell bellow cost for a certian amount of time . Toshiba may be going to ms hey we will give u these units for 40$ instead of 60$ that they cost and we plan on having the 1x drives down to 40$ cost by holiday 2006 , by holiday 2007 they will be down to 20$ and that may be a price ms can live with .

We don't know the details . But as i said , if they come out with a hd-dvd version shortly after launch (like spring 2006) i will personaly be upset with them . Just like i'm upset sony not putting in a hardrive .

The problem is even if ms doesn't put in a hd-dvd drive they can make up for thier lack of optical storage through more discs .

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Why can't it be cheaper than a ps3 ? Can you show me the costs of both ?

Nope But looking at the two systems, if we accept they are comparable systems in capability, than they should be comparable price wise, assuming both parties are able to make smart decisions of price/performance efficiency. With similar transistor counts and components how can one be substantially cheaper? Okay, you've explained how above.

For me, I see MS having maybe cheaper components because of size and structure being offset by other factors. For CPU, they may have a smaller chip than Cell, but the have to pay profit to their fab. And we don't have any transistor figure for XeCPU, or even die pics for estimations from what I know. So the idea of a smaller, cheaper CPU hasn't got much real evidence to support it at the moment. For GPU, 2 chips for GPU might be good for yields, but if say yields for the eDRAM are really poor, those 2 chips could still be alot more expensive than the one die for RSX. Do we have examples of two-die chips like Xenos for price comparison? Do we know it's a cheaper?

As you say, you were only going by that one analyst. Fair enough. But that same analyst hasn't released a price for XB360 from what I know (seems the analysis was for financial impact to Sony of PS3 vs. XB360, with no regard to cost to MS). If they had, we'd see the XB360 hardware and PS3 hardware costs from the same perspective -comparable figures. At the moment we only have different figures from different analysts who will no doubt be getting different estimations. And without comparable estimations for the two differing hardwares it's really far too early to say how much price difference in hardware there is, other than our own best guesses. Of which mine is very poor as I know sod all about chip fabbing cost but I still can't see XB360 being $100 cheaper to make, especially with HDDVD drive.