"Those weapons of mass destruction have got to be somew

[digitalwanderer]

I'm talking about loss of credibility and strained relationships of government leadership being a basically a myth. I don't see anyone "brekaing ties" with the U.S.? I didn't see Bush go out and bash new Spanish leadership, and I didn't see the new Spanish leadership they would break ties with the U.S. I see disagreements, and I see the channels of communication still open.

The governments that I see supporting us are having trouble getting their populations to agree with them, it seems the people of those countries don't happen to agree with their governments support of us.

Do you think Blair will get re-elected?

Damn, you really are a good trolling flame baiter aren't you Joe.

Totally truthful here for a second and I don't mean this in an insulting way, but Joe is a freaking artist at trolling flame bait!

Seriously, I stand in awe of a master and feel me own skills have sharpened a bit from bumping heads with him....the man is good! 8)

 

[Natoma]

No

you

just

have

a

nasty

habit

of

snipping

sentences

in

half

, deleting

others

entirely,

and

responding

to

tiny

portions,

thereby

changing

the

meaning

of

a

post.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

The governments that I see supporting us are having trouble getting their populations to agree with them, it seems the people of those countries don't happen to agree with their governments support of us.

That's not surprising, considering that even in the U.S., there is healthy debate. Call it 50/50 on any fiven day. But my point is, what "the people say and think" is not the same as what "formal relationship" we have, as a nation, with any other nation.

Do you think Blair will get re-elected?

In a political environment as volitlie as we have today, there really is no way to even guess. (See Spain).

 

[Joe DeFuria]

No

you

just

have

a

nasty

habit

of

snipping

sentences

in

half

, deleting

others

entirely,

and

responding

to

tiny

portions,

thereby

changing

the

meaning

of

a

post.

There....I quoted your entire post. No interruptions.

Now, go away, or be constructive.

 

[Natoma]

I'm talking about loss of credibility and strained relationships of government leadership being a basically a myth. I don't see anyone "brekaing ties" with the U.S.? I didn't see Bush go out and bash new Spanish leadership, and I didn't see the new Spanish leadership they would break ties with the U.S. I see disagreements, and I see the channels of communication still open.

The governments that I see supporting us are having trouble getting their populations to agree with them, it seems the people of those countries don't happen to agree with their governments support of us.

Do you think Blair will get re-elected?

For instance Spain, which had a 90% disapproval rating of the prior spanish administration's support for the Iraq war. When are english elections btw?

Damn, you really are a good trolling flame baiter aren't you Joe.

Totally truthful here for a second and I don't mean this in an insulting way, but Joe is a freaking artist at trolling flame bait!

Seriously, I stand in awe of a master and feel me own skills have sharpened a bit from bumping heads with him....the man is good! 8)

That's not a talent to be proud of.

 

[Natoma]

There....I quoted your entire post. No interruptions.

Now, go away, or be constructive.

You're right. I'm not being constructive. Pointing out obvious flaws serves no purpose but to further inflame a discussion.

* Natoma stops pointing out the truth and returns to the topics at hand.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

For instance Spain, which had a 90% disapproval rating of the prior spanish administration's support for the Iraq war.

And yet, it seems that the prior Spanish adminstration was going to get re-elected, if not for that bombing.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

There....I quoted your entire post. No interruptions.

Now, go away, or be constructive.

You're right. I'm not being constructive. Pointing out obvious flaws serves no purpose but to further inflame a discussion.

* Natoma stops pointing out the truth and returns to the topics at hand.

I'm still waiting for the flaws to be pointed out. Start any time.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Do you think Blair will get re-elected?

In a political environment as volitlie as we have today, there really is no way to even guess. (See Spain).

Pretty much exactly my point to Joe, see Spain.

I'm talking about loss of credibility and strained relationships of government leadership being a basically a myth. I don't see anyone "brekaing ties" with the U.S.? I didn't see Bush go out and bash new Spanish leadership, and I didn't see the new Spanish leadership they would break ties with the U.S. I see disagreements, and I see the channels of communication still open.

The governments that I see supporting us are having trouble getting their populations to agree with them, it seems the people of those countries don't happen to agree with their governments support of us.

Do you think Blair will get re-elected?

For instance Spain, which had a 90% disapproval rating of the prior spanish administration's support for the Iraq war. When are english elections btw?

Damn, you really are a good trolling flame baiter aren't you Joe.

Totally truthful here for a second and I don't mean this in an insulting way, but Joe is a freaking artist at trolling flame bait!

Seriously, I stand in awe of a master and feel me own skills have sharpened a bit from bumping heads with him....the man is good! 8)

That's not a talent to be proud of.

Sure it is! Especially if it's your part-time hobby on really boring nights.

 

[digitalwanderer]

For instance Spain, which had a 90% disapproval rating of the prior spanish administration's support for the Iraq war.

And yet, it seems that the prior Spanish adminstration was going to get re-elected, if not for that bombing.

According to Spanish government statistics, yes. 8)

 

[John Reynolds]

This assumes, you are speaking from a logical perspective.

Jesus f'in Christ, Joe. This is just fruitier than Natoma. I'm opposed to our invasion of Iraq and say I agree with Reagan's former Navy Secretary that it was a military blunder. You ask if he's the same man now criticizing Clarke. I say I don't know but I also don't see how that relates, why you'd bring it up in the context of our discussion. You say you didn't say it relates. I ponder why if it doesn't relate you therefore dropped it into the conversation and that doing so isn't very logical (two guys heatedly discussing Cold War relations and one suddenly chirps, hey how 'bout those Red Sox). You retort by saying I have a illogical perspective.

The Madrid bombers must've contacted you on how to thoroughly derail something. <awaits with pleasure being told how politically incorrect such a statement is in the context of this thread's subject>

 

[Sxotty]

Don't feel bad. . .I doubt I even vote at all.

Yeah there is this lagwagon song, called "stop whining"

Can't you see
We the people can make the choices
You and I must raise our voices
To build a future where we belong
Revoke oppression and right and wrong
But do you vote or do you only complain
Do you just carry on in vain
As your economy crashes,
Your country goes to war
The deficit
Their answer to tax the poor
But you may never know
What you refuse to learn
Do you work the system
Or do you get burned?
Do you ignore your abilities
Or your intellect?
Are you obselete?
An easy out, you forget it all
But it's the hardest path
And you chase to follow
You wouldn't speak for yourself
And now you're spoken for
This is something you can not ignore
It's time
For you to notice
The things that die
With no more lies
You can't deny
You're always high
And you still bitch
Makes me sick
It makes me sick the way you always
Fuckin' bitch
I remember a time when I thought it wasn't fair
The scales of justice didn't care
But with no darkness
Theere would never be light
There would never be light
Without injustice we'd never have a right

So yes I vote, and I live in freakin Texas so it is pointless as far as the president goes, but at least I can vote for third party canidates.


My solution, make it so the president must have a majority to win, then if no one does have a run off. Suddenly americans would have a reason to vote and the canidates would actually have to do something to get a vote besides be the lesser of two evils.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Do you think Blair will get re-elected?

In a political environment as volitlie as we have today, there really is no way to even guess. (See Spain).

Pretty much exactly my point to Joe, see Spain.

In all honesty and seriousness...what exactly is your point? I'm not seeing it.

(BTW...I'm pretty amused at the irony of you two having a conversation about my so-called "trolling flaim bait" ability. )

 

[John Reynolds]

And yet, it seems that the prior Spanish adminstration was going to get re-elected, if not for that bombing.

No, and we've already discussed this. The incumbents shot themselves in the foot by generating a huge swing vote against themselves when they were so quick to vehemently blame the Socialists for the bombings.

 

[Nathan]

Its truly horrifying that so many people (if the polls are true, and I question their veracity) think that suicide bombing against civilians is an acceptable measure of action.

No, its not horrifying.. Its pathetic, by just about any standard of human behaviour.

What exactly leads you to believe they're not accurate?

I think you may be falling into the trap of applying Western principles to Middle Eastern countries. Predominantly Islamic countries can have a completely different way of looking at things compared Christian based countries. That doesn't necessarily mean that something they consider acceptable is immoral. It may be perfectly acceptable within their belief structure. Refusing to acknowledge the role a country's religion, military or economic status has in shaping people's opinions will only allow you to see part of the picture.

 

[RussSchultz]

So now that the Berlin wall is fallen we should just throw that goodwill and positive relations out the window?

If you've forgotten, there were massive protests back in the day against deploying short/medium range missiles in Europe.

You could say they were against actions which eventually ended the cold war.

 

[Sxotty]

BTW I was in spain, right after the bombings, and the approval of the incumbents went up, just like it always does after a tragedy, it was just as JR said. The government lied because they thought if the people knew it was muslim extremists then the spainards would vote them out, so they made up stuff and got caught lying. When the president lies to the populace about national security issues it is hard to get reelected except maybe here in hte good 'ol USA of course .

 

[Natoma]

This assumes, you are speaking from a logical perspective.

Jesus f'in Christ, Joe. This is just fruitier than Natoma. I'm opposed to our invasion of Iraq and say I agree with Reagan's former Navy Secretary that it was a military blunder. You ask if he's the same man now criticizing Clarke. I say I don't know but I also don't see how that relates, why you'd bring it up in the context of our discussion. You say you didn't say it relates. I ponder why if it doesn't relate you therefore dropped it into the conversation and that doing so isn't very logical (two guys heatedly discussing Cold War relations and one suddenly chirps, hey how 'bout those Red Sox). You retort by saying I have a illogical perspective.

The Madrid bombers must've contacted you on how to thoroughly derail something. <awaits with pleasure being told how politically incorrect such a statement is in the context of this thread's subject>

I don't even know where to start.....

That's so wrong John. So damn wrong. I am NOT fruity!!!

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Jesus f'in Christ, Joe. This is just fruitier than Natoma. I'm opposed to our invasion of Iraq and say I agree with Reagan's former Navy Secretary that it was a military blunder. You ask if he's the same man now criticizing Clarke. I say I don't know but I also don't see how that relates, why you'd bring it up in the context of our discussion.

Because who gives a rats ass if someone else agrees with you on Iraq? What does that add to the discussion? Believe it or not, I happen to know that some people agree with you. At the same time, you might apparently be asontished to know that other people people agree with me. Big revelation there.

You say you didn't say it relates.

The point is, opinions are like assholes, right? You hold up the former Navy Secretary like his opinion matters more than someone in, for example, the current administration, who's dealing with this here and now. If you hold his opinions so high, then you may want to rethink your evaluation of Clarke's credibility.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Do you think Blair will get re-elected?

In a political environment as volitlie as we have today, there really is no way to even guess. (See Spain).

Pretty much exactly my point to Joe, see Spain.

In all honesty and seriousness...what exactly is your point? I'm not seeing it.

The Spanish government was saying it was going to be re-elected Joe, that's the only people who were saying it. The people of Spain were against their governments support of the war and didn't re-elect 'em.

The government's handling of the terrorist attack is what they say influenced the election more than the attack, the people simply knew they couldn't trust their government anymore.

Just like how some of us Americans feel Joe.

(BTW...I'm pretty amused at the irony of you two having a conversation about my so-called "trolling flaim bait" ability. )

Nothing "so-called" about it, you have the knack and an elegance and timing for it that only comes thru practice and innate ability.

Truly, you're good. 8)