The terrorists want Bush re-elected

[John Reynolds]

I can't believe what I am reading here. To advocate that they are Fundamentalist is a meager attempt to connect Bush with the same stigma attached to the likes of Bin Laden. It requires a weak mind and a stretch of the imagination to fathom it. I am not going to go on and on with you guys on this. It is utterly ridiculous and preposterous to make such a parallel.

Because you're misreading me. There are degrees of fundamentalism, and quite frankly I'm rather uncomfortable with all of them. I certainly wasn't trying to compare the Bush administration to a terrorist's level. That said, I could really do without my nation's Attorney General making statements that Jesus is King of America. Or our president casting himself in the white robes of his Manichaeanistic battle of good vs. evil. You're not Aragorn, Dubya.

 

[Natoma]

can't believe what I am reading here. To advocate that they are Fundamentalist is a meager attempt to connect Bush with the same stigma attached to the likes of Bin Laden. It requires a weak mind and a stretch of the imagination to fathom it. I am not going to go on and on with you guys on this. It is utterly ridiculous and preposterous to make such a parallel.

Of course, one man's terrorist is another man's patriot, hero, and savior. If the british had won the revolutionary war, George Washington could have gone down in history as a terrorist. Osama? He's a fundamentalist hero to some in the muslim world. To others he's a nutty dangerous kook. Sound familiar to the dichotic descriptions of Bush here at home?

How do you think history will portray Osama if Al-Qaeda wins? Certainly not as a crazy fundamentalist terrorist. Frankly it'd probably portray Bush as a crazy fundamentalist terrorist who caused the deaths of tens of thousands of believing muslims, no better than Saddam Hussein.

Religiously driven socio-political fundamentalism on either side is frightening. The parallel is really not as ridiculous and preposterous as you might think. Both sides think they're fighting on the side of God, and flaunt that belief very openly. And both sides are willing to do whatever it takes in order to further its goals.

History being written by the victor and all that......

 

[Clashman]

Aristide was elected through free and open elections. There were 8 contested seats out of 7500, which Aristide offered to rerun, (the opposition refused). Comparing a government run by Jesuit Priests to Saddam Hussein is just plain old insane. Furthermore, there are two main opposition groups in Haiti, the Convergence, (which features many prominent coup leaders), and the Group of 184, which doesn't have the direct ties to the coup as the Convergence does, but does carry within it's ranks a number of former Duvallier supporters. Both groups recieved funds from the National Endowment for Democracy as well as the International Republican Institute.

 

[Clashman]

Democratically elected governments like in Iran? North Korea? Why don't you list all these countries anyhow? Oh setting up a democracy and funneling money into Iraq and Afghanistan? Why don't you explain just exactly how it is that the US is an enemy of democratic values? Just how is it that "America is the "haters of freedom" when it comes to Kuwait , Egypt , Suadia Arabia , Qatar , Palestine , etc.." I think only the most brainwashed hyperventilating left wing zealot could actually say such a thing and keep a straight face. This garbage rhetoric about a repressive America is political propaganda for Christ sake, and guess what? I?m not buying it.

In case you didn't notice, the person originally making that comment was taking language used by yourself to describe terrorists view of America, and using it to describe how people in many Arab countries might feel, when their dictatorial government recieves millions of dollars in direct military aid to maintain their position in power. This "garbage rhetoric", as you term it, is regularly employed by right wing pundits in attempts to demonize anybody they disagree with. If you truly believe it is "garbage rhetoric", I suggest you stop using it.

I can't believe what I am reading here. To advocate that they are Fundamentalist is a meager attempt to connect Bush with the same stigma attached to the likes of Bin Laden. It requires a weak mind and a stretch of the imagination to fathom it. I am not going to go on and on with you guys on this. It is utterly ridiculous and preposterous to make such a parallel.

But of course it's perfectly rational to make the parallel that a PP loss in Spain is a "VICTORY FOR TERRORISM", right?

 

[RussSchultz]

Furthermore Russ, just where the fuck do you get off equating my opposition to present foreign policy as "Bush hatred"?!? .

You complain that we prop up dictators, yet when we deposed a dictator in Iraq you complain that we did.

 

[Clashman]

Because it killed thousands upon thousands of people, maybe, and pushed us into a guerrilla war?

 

[RussSchultz]

So we should have just left him in power?

 

[Natoma]

You complain that we prop up dictators, yet when we deposed a dictator in Iraq you complain that we did.

I'm happy Saddam is gone. I just don't like the way we went about it. I'm not an ends justify the means person at all.

 

[Clashman]

If we make a real commitment to not putting dictators in power and overthrowing democracies in the first place, we wouldn't have to worry. The money and lives wasted in this war could have been used to create immesurable good. Instead, we've got a quagmire, and in a couple years we might have some lobotomized form of democracy in Iraq, (which I doubt we'll even have that in Afghanistan, given how we've been trying to bribe warlords to throw their support to Karzai, but that's another topic).

Also wanted to point out that there does appear to be more crossover between the Convergence and the G184 than I initially thought, as well:

http://haitisupport.gn.apc.org/184 EC.htm

Regarding funding for the Group of 184:
It is known that Rosny Desroches is head of the Fondation Haitienne de l'Enseignement Prive (FONHEP), and that the FNH is run by M. Andre Apaid Jnr. Both FONHEP and FNH are members of the ISC. All members of the ISC are also members of the Group of 184. Indeed, Andre Apaid Jnr. is the Group of 184's main spokesperson.

According to the EC, M. Desroches and the FNH are charged with disbursing the EC funds to "human rights groups" in Haiti. Fourteen organisations are listed by the EC as among those receiving EC funding via M. Desroches and the FNH. These 14 organisations are:
FNH - Fondation Nouvelle Haiti;
CCIH - Chambre de commerce et d'industrie;
CNEH - Confederation Nationale des educateurs haitiens;
OGITH - Organisation generale independante des travailleurs haitiens;
CRESFED - Centre de Recherche et de Formation Economique et Sociale;
MOUFHED - Mouvement des femmes haitiennes pour l'education et le developpement;
CEDH - Centre oecumenique des droits humains;
Commission Justice et Paix;
Femmes en democratie;
KOP (Coordination des organisations populaires);
CEPRODHD - Centre pour la promotion des droits humains et de la democratie en Haiti;
FPDH - Fondation pour la Promotion des droits de l'homme;
CREDH - Centre de recherche pour le developpement humain;
CED - Collectif pour l'education et le developpement.

The first seven organisations in the above list are members of the Group of 184:

· As we have already mentioned, the FNH is run by Andre Apaid Jnr. - the Group of 184's main spokesperson. Another FNH leader is Leopold Berlanger, the director of conservative radio station, Radio Vision2000, and a long-time US favourite.

· The head of the CICH, Maurice Lafortune, has also appeared in public as a Group of 184 spokesperson.

· The CNEH and the OGITH are trade unions, both members of the Group of 184.

· The CRESFED is a non-governmental organisation headed by Suzy Castor, a leading member of the Organisation du Peuple en Lutte political party.

· The MOUFHED is a non-governmental organisation headed by Jessie Benoit, a leading member of the Konakom political party.

· The CEDH is a human rights organisation headed by Jean-Claude Bajeux, one of the founders, and a former secretary-general, of the Konakom political party.

The Organisation du Peuple en Lutte and Konakom political parties are members of the Democratic Convergence coalition.