The Technology of GTA IV/RDR *Rage Engine*

[joker454]

before we jump all over the "it's a conspiracy against PS3!" crap... how about we realize that with less available RAM (and I understand with custom soundtracks an additional 9MB of resources needed) there have GOT to be some compromise somewhere ALL ELSE being equal with 360 version.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Don't waste your time, the kool aid is just too strong. Sometimes I wish I had permission to post verbatim what people from NVidia and certain Sony first parties have told me first hand as to what they *really* think of the PS3 hardware compared to the competition, it would end all this conspiracy nonsense for once and for all.

 

[patsu]

before we jump all over the "it's a conspiracy against PS3!" crap... how about we realize that with less available RAM (and I understand with custom soundtracks an additional 9MB of resources needed) there have GOT to be some compromise somewhere ALL ELSE being equal with 360 version.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Actually, EU and Japan PS3s may run PlayTV in parallel with RDR or any other games also.

Not so sure about the RAM thing since I don't think custom sound track is a hotly sought after feature. If they have RAM problems, they might as well throw available RAM at the game itself.

Is RDR built on top of or evolved from GTA engine and tools ? If so, there may be inherent limitations that get carried over from there.

EDIT: For an open world game like this, I wonder if stereoscopic 3D is possible.

 

[nightshade]

I have been wondering lately that RDR is clearly not even close to being as dense or populated as GTA4/ Episodes, nor does it has so many lights or characters/vehicles to render or bother about so many animations...and also a lot of area in the map is just plain desert with odd buildings here & there....yet its seemingly running at the same res/AA as Episodes from Liberty City...shouldn't not having as dense world as in GTA ease them off some RAM ?

 

[Tap In]

Actually, EU and Japan PS3s may run PlayTV in parallel with RDR or any other games also.

Not so sure about the RAM thing since I don't think custom sound track is a hotly sought after feature. If they have RAM problems, they might as well throw available RAM at the game itself.

Is RDR built on top of or evolved from GTA engine and tools ? If so, there may be inherent limitations that get carried over from there.

EDIT: For an open world game like this, I wonder if stereoscopic 3D is possible.

people are suggesting that one way that Sony got the system footprint down to 50MB was by allowing things like custom soundtracks to be dev optional where they pull from game memory. 9MB was cited somewhere by the Uncharted team I believe.

As for the engine, not sure, but with 27 MB less RAM available than 360 version (not factoring eDRAM or architecture) there is logically something that will have to be done differently if both versions are otherwise feature for feature.


EDIT:

not that for all intents and purposes most people will never notice the difference especially if they only have one system. The game is said to run and look great on PS3 and even more clear and crisp than GTA

 

[Tap In]

I have been wondering lately that RDR is clearly not even close to being as dense or populated as GTA4/ Episodes, nor does it has so many lights or characters/vehicles to render or bother about so many animations...and also a lot of area in the map is just plain desert with odd buildings here & there....yet its seemingly running at the same res/AA as Episodes from Liberty City...shouldn't not having as dense world as in GTA ease them off some RAM ?

I read an article where R* commented that creating the wide open world was as complex as the cityscape and in some ways more challenging... I'll see if I can find it

 

[Tap In]

more info regarding this Rage engine

Technology
While GTA IV was hailed as a crowning achievement in technology for the open-world genre with its expansive and detailed world, physics system and Euphoria, the game engine Rockstar North used was actually developed by Rockstar San Diego. The RAGE engine was originally built for Red Dead Redemption (and was shown off in tech-demo form at E3 in 2005), but has since found itself as the company's staple development architecture; evolving as needed to cater for anything being built within the collective Rockstar studios' walls. What this means, however, is that while the engine is available to everyone within Rockstar, the team who know it best are clearly the guys who built it. And all the while it was being tweaked and moulded to bring us GTA IV, San Diego were in development with Red Dead Redemption; learning from mistakes or shortcomings essentially tested with GTA IV. This shows in the final result; the game is very, very quick to load (so no annoying GTA IV pre-load art screens), and the game-world seamlessly renders in incredible scope. The only time you're really facing any lengthy loads is if you fast travel to different areas, otherwise it's all-immersive, never once pulling you out of suspended disbelief and your overall experience.

The incredible thing about this streaming world is just how unbelievable the draw-distance is. I'm reminded of the likes of Oblivion, Fallout 3 or even the recently released Just Cause 2 - all showcasing massive landscapes as far as the eye can see. But Red Dead draws so much more detail out of this scope, and the game-world is much more engaging as a result. The build I was playing only suffered minor moments of pop-up, and I never noticed a single hitch in frame-rate. There's also an incredible level of real-world detail - something I touched on in part 1 of my hands-on. Essentially there are never two areas of the landscape repeated twice. Texturing is insanely detailed with smooth load-ins that barely catch your eye, this helps in a gameplay facet too. One of Red Dead's optional side-quests involves finding treasure, the only thing is, the maps designed for this purpose are usually very vague, often only representing locations via crudely drawn landmarks. The idea then is to match up these amateurishly-drawn maps with the real-world. The first one I attempted was reasonably easy, but the second had me utterly baffled. I can see this quest seriously pushing the cerebral envelope for a lot of players.

Something else I touched on in part 1 was also the use of NaturalMotion's Euphoria animation tech. It's actually starting to make its way around to various developers now, but Rockstar were chosen as one of the first to utilise it in videogames, and while it was very cool in GTA IV, its evolution is more than apparent in Red Dead Redemption. All characters and animals in the game are animated using Euphoria, and the end result is a robust and more-naturally organic gameplay and ambient experience. Marston, for example, walks with deliberation; his strong stance, bow-legged cowboy stride and horse-riding ability are all immediate stand-outs. In combat enemies react realistically when hit, and when dead, will fall with amazing physics. It adds to the brutal nature of the Wild West, but also delivers a level of combat satisfaction too many games ignore. Every shot fired counts in Red Dead Redemption, so actually killing enemies with skill and seeing their reactionary animations based on said skill is like a virtual pat on the back. Moreover, the combined technologies of the RAGE engine, its physics system and Euphoria really can't be understated - especially when you consider you'll be partaking in plenty of horse-back combat, stage-coach driving/riding and, of course, mixing it up with game's trains. You'll almost never experience action the same twice over.

wow at this HD game footage (missions spoilers so don't watch for long )

 

[Billy Idol]

people are suggesting that one way that Sony got the system footprint down to 50MB was by allowing things like custom soundtracks to be dev optional where they pull from game memory. 9MB was cited somewhere by the Uncharted team I believe.

As for the engine, not sure, but with 27 MB less RAM available than 360 version (not factoring eDRAM or architecture) there is logically something that will have to be done differently if both versions are otherwise feature for feature.


EDIT:

not that for all intents and purposes most people will never notice the difference especially if they only have one system. The game is said to run and look great on PS3 and even more clear and crisp than GTA

I know that it is common consensus on this forum that Xbox360>>PS3.

But, didn't the example of Final Fantasy 13 (first documented game with PS3 as lead platform and Xbox360 version being the port) just learned us that it is all down to the devs...if they design a game solely for one platform and port it to the other - we typically get chaos and anarchy...even when porting from PS3 -> Xbox360!

That is why I blame the devs! Now with RDR it seems to be again the case that the devs *force* me to buy the Xbox360 version, although I would prefer playing this on PS3...but before breaking loose, it is best that we wait and see how both versions will finally compare!

And I hope that Kratos is wrong when he states: "In the end, there will only be chaos!"

 

[Ruskie]

I know that it is common consensus on this forum that Xbox360>>PS3.

But, didn't the example of Final Fantasy 13 (first documented game with PS3 as lead platform and Xbox360 version being the port) just learned us that it is all down to the devs...if they design a game solely for one platform and port it to the other - we typically get chaos and anarchy...even when porting from PS3 -> Xbox360!

That is why I blame the devs! Now with RDR it seems to be again the case that the devs *force* me to buy the Xbox360 version, although I would prefer playing this on PS3...but before breaking loose, it is best that we wait and see how both versions will finally compare!

And I hope that Kratos is wrong when he states: "In the end, there will only be chaos!"

Wasnt RDR lead on ps3?Since it was announced that it will be ps3 exclusive i would guess they started with that version earlier.Also,I do know that FF13 was quite a quick port that didnt use tiling,thats why it had to be downgraded.Other than that it was basically the same as ps3(except for pure cutscenes).
And i dont agree that even porting from ps3 to 360 will give you chaos and anarchy EVEN sometimes.Generally the better your ps3 code the 360 version will benefit more than if you went with easy route on 360.Anyway...Ghostbusters lead sku was ps3,no?And it was seriously downgraded.

 

[Tap In]

Wasnt RDR lead on ps3?.

R* has stated several times that both versions were developed side by side with different teams.

they have also said that both versions are feature for feature identical so maybe they both are the same?

 

[Ruskie]

R* has stated several times that both versions were developed side by side with different teams.

they have also said that both versions are feature for feature identical so maybe they both are the same?

I dont think there is a chance the game is the same...maybe it is but after those shoots,some people who played it said it has quite a lot of jaggies(ps3 version) and then that suspicious Magazinduders quote that it can be as low as 540p i doubt they are the same...

 

[patsu]

people are suggesting that one way that Sony got the system footprint down to 50MB was by allowing things like custom soundtracks to be dev optional where they pull from game memory. 9MB was cited somewhere by the Uncharted team I believe.

Well, they allow PlayTV to run in parallel without the games knowing. So playing music should be possible. It could also be a patent issue ?

The additional 9Mb for custom sound track may be tied to how things are managed at run-time (running user content in a separate memory space for security reason ?).

As for the engine, not sure, but with 27 MB less RAM available than 360 version (not factoring eDRAM or architecture) there is logically something that will have to be done differently if both versions are otherwise feature for feature.

Would be cool to find out what problems they encountered and how they solved them. There are always challenges in a closed system programming; citing one hardware boundary will not give a full picture. Other bottlenecks may hit in parallel.

I know that it is common consensus on this forum that Xbox360>>PS3.

Ha ha, I think it depends on the context and techniques used. They have different architecture and strengths.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Just noticed this....

Wow, this thread is very eye opening. I'm amazed that after doing a/b comparisons on their own tv's that people prefer the look of the PS3 version. I always felt that resolution was overrated for this generation in reference to 1080p. But with threads like this, I can't help but wonder if even 720p is needed at all. Clearly, resolution and sharpness are totally moot given how many prefer the look of the PS3 version.

So, are we wasting our time with 1280x720? Maybe we should just render at 960x540 and upscale with numerous post processing passes?

Dude, you're busted - you've been working on Alan Wake this whole time!!!

Sorry about the OT

 

[Billy Idol]

Can someone please explain me please what is so taxing in GTA4 and RDR that the PS3 needs a downgrade?
I understand for instance the issues in Bayonetta...but I don't think that the same arguments apply for this type of game - right?!
So is there something special in this engine which favors the Xbox360 architecture?
Is it for instance the draw distance?!
Is it the open world character of this game, which fits better to the Xbox360?
Is, in an open world game/defered renderer the difference in RAM more pronounced and thus we see larger differences?
Thanks!

 

[assurdum]

Can someone please explain me please what is so taxing in GTA4 and RDR that the PS3 needs a downgrade?
I understand for instance the issues in Bayonetta...but I don't think that the same arguments apply for this type of game - right?!
So is there something special in this engine which favors the Xbox360 architecture?
Is it for instance the draw distance?!
Is it the open world character of this game, which fits better to the Xbox360?
Is, in an open world game/defered renderer the difference in RAM more pronounced and thus we see larger differences?
Thanks!

Probably transparancies; GTA has a lot of transparancies...& maybe triple buffering because the double buffer on the ps3 not work perfectly & cause a lot of tearing...so downgrade the resolution to mantain an acceptable fps with triple buffer and to not sacrifice transparancies res but specifically need to know how work the code on the ps3 (the spe usage etc...); for RDR will see, to now the native resolution it isn't clear on the ps3.

 

[Billy Idol]

Probably transparancies; GTA has a lot of transparancies...& maybe triple buffering because the double buffer on the ps3 not work perfectly & cause a lot of tearing...so downgrade the resolution to mantain an acceptable fps with triple buffer and to not sacrifice transparancies res but specifically need to know how work the code on the ps3 (the spe usage etc...); for RDR will see, to now the native resolution it isn't clear on the ps3.

Ah thanks...I don't know GTA, so when there are a lot of transparancies in this game...it is the same argument as for Bayonetta then?!

 

[assurdum]

Ah thanks...I don't know GTA, so when there are a lot of transparancies in this game...it is the same argument as for Bayonetta then?!

It's just my supposition...talking of bayonetta, the question is bad porting here...even with low buffer & low texture can't substain 30 fps...to me it's only a bad works...I have seen a lot of game of SEGA on the ps3 & it's pretty terrible imho with this hardware in different occasions (I have in mind the yakuza series, graphically a disaster to me, not AA and not upscale to 1080p with 1024x768p of res? 720p it's a blurry mess...)

 

[Butta]

It seems that PS3 and 360 are close enough that this reviewer saw no difference:

http://www.nowgamer.com/news/3178/red-dead-redemption-360-amp-ps3-identical

 

[AlNom]

...which has very little bearing for our purposes.

 

[Tap In]

notes from varied reviewers so essentially identical (pending res)

- colors more saturated in the 360 version (Gamepro)
- less texture pop in in the 360 version (Gamepro)
- heavy framerate drops in the PS3 version (Cynamite)
- small framerate dips in the 360 version (Cynamite)

 

[Neb]

Ah thanks...I don't know GTA, so when there are a lot of transparancies in this game...it is the same argument as for Bayonetta then?!

Car windows, smoke/particles in uncontrolled situations, vegetation.