The Passion

[L233]

Hogwash. Predestination precludes free will.

I think Legion has a point here. Precognition is the same thing as predestination. There can be no free will when there is an omniscient entity. If there was an omniscient entity when I make a decision then my decision will always be predetermined by the foreknowledge of the omniscient being. I can't decide one way or another, I will walk the path predetermined by foreknowledge. All I have is the illusion of making a decision.

My personal interpretation (based on a belief that the Trinity is pagan claptrap)

All Christian denominations accept Trinity as a fundamental dogma because it is required to construe the divinity of Jesus. The exception are Unitarians and more obscure sects like Jehova's Wittnesses and the Mormons but I am not sure if those can be considered Xian.

 

[Basic]

People need to lighten up.

You say that now, wait until they turn out a movie entitled " The Life of Reynold then we'll see what you have to say

Been there, done that. It's a fun but odd movie:

(Sorry couldn't resist )

 

[Legion]

Hogwash. Predestination precludes free will.

I think Legion has a point here. Precognition is the same thing as predestination. There can be no free will when there is an omniscient entity. If there was an omniscient entity when I make a decision then my decision will always be predetermined by the foreknowledge of the omniscient being. I can't decide one way or another, I will walk the path predetermined by foreknowledge. All I have is the illusion of making a decision.

You are such a cute little german when you want to be. I can just picture you now in your little polka outfit standing by a bar. Your parents are proud. Cute little boy. Rosey nose and dimples too...

Bah, not bad for some one who sucks at history eh l233

All Christian denominations accept Trinity as a fundamental dogma because it is required to construe the divinity of Jesus. The exception are Unitarians and more obscure sects like Jehova's Wittnesses and the Mormons but I am not sure if those can be considered Xian.

They certainly see themselves as christians. It depends on how you define christian, you see. Is a christian one who accepts jesus as the son of God, persay? If so then no neither of these two cults can be considered christian.

 

[Legion]

Get this

God makes Lucifer
God knows Lucifer will be EVIL
God loves Lucifer anyway
One day Lucifer turns on God
God gets angry for something he knew would happen and banishes Lucifer to hell and explodes Xaphan all over the universe...

Who created evil?


God creates humans
Humans love God - God loves humans
God knows humans will turn on him
Humans turn on God
God gets pissed at being wronged
Sends man death and banishes him from the garden of eden
God is an angry God


moral of the story: never listen to talking snakes...

Perhaps Dogma had something with conveying God as a woman. It this kind of emmotional irrationalism i see so often from my fiance.

 

[L233]

There are more odd inconsistencies.

God commands Adam and Eve to stay the hell away from that apple tree. They disobey and eat an apple and gain the ability to know wrong from right. God kicks them out of Paradise for disobeying him.

Seems a bit unfair to me considering they didn't know it was wrong to disobey god before actually getting to know wrong from right by disobeying god.

It goes round and round and round and now I am one dizzy little German in a polka outfit.

 

[Legion]

Seems a bit unfair to me considering they didn't know it was wrong to disobey god before actually getting to know wrong from right by disobeying god.

Stupid baby, didn't you know what would happen when you swallowed those asparin?

Fuck pregnancy, my life is ruined by this child, its all its fault...

It goes round and round and round and now I am one dizzy little German in a polka outfit.

Sort of like religion in its sophistry if you will

How do we know God is real?
Because the bible tells us so
How do we know we should believe the Bible
Because God says so...

I think we will find perpetual motion does exist just not outside the realm of circular arguments

 

[Fred]

Or, if God gives you a choice, and you do such and such an act that goes counter to his will, he becomes very angry and throws you into the fiery lakes of hell.

However, since he already knows that you will do the act, why isn't he angry in the first place. But, if he is angry in the first place, then maybe you wouldn't have gone counter to his will to begin with. Either way, its pretty sadistic =)

My personal favorite, is the story of the three people who receive gifts from God. The dude who buries his gifts, then gets thrown into eternal damnation and torture, for presenting it unaltered.

I should remind that to my GF, everytime she borrows my Xbox. 'What, it has returned without any new games.. Out Wench out!'

 

[Legion]

here is the killer:


Why does God need blood sacrifices to forgive?

 

[L233]

Why does God need blood sacrifices to forgive?

Why does got need or desire anything? God is "omni-all". A perfect being in absolute equilibrium.

 

[Legion]

Why does God need blood sacrifices to forgive?

Why does got need or desire anything? God is "omni-all". A perfect being in absolute equilibrium.

That wants and needs....

Its sad really...

 

[zidane1strife]

I can't decide one way or another, I will walk the path predetermined by foreknowledge. All I have is the illusion of making a decision.

heheh....

Well, if you don't believe that Jesus died for our sins then how are we supposed to achieve salvation?

I doubt anyone's going to burn anywhere... or suffer perpetually anywhere...

If it's the former then God is seriously guilty of playing favorites.

Come on, God cannot be guilty, he is all(thus he would be innocent too).

I'm all powerful, he's condemned to eternal suffering, through no fault of his own, but just because I wanted a damn good laugh.

Well, from what I'm told from catholic people with years of studying the stuff... Hell is just a departure from God, to be without his presence, which is what causes the intolerable eternal suffering, you're supposedly given what you asked for. You abandoned God, so in the end you're allowed to completely leave his presence.

I think we will find perpetual motion does exist just not outside the realm of circular arguments

A perpetual motion machine, to extract energy from, might be feasible, one way could be by exploiting the temporary reversal of entropy that occurs at small scales, or maybe using negative stuff... maybe or maybe not... anyway, I believe most laws can be bent to the point that they're basically broken... but it wont be easy...

Could the universe qualify as such? I mean it keeps going and going, even after all mass decays, will it ever stop? That is has anything been said about what will happen eventually? Will it reach a point of inertness? Not even the vacuum of space is inert, from what I've heard... so...

Why does got need or desire anything? God is "omni-all". A perfect being in absolute equilibrium.

God exists outside of time, so you could say he could very well be willing something to be, and receiving what he wills simultaneously. Whatever might seem as desire or want or something to seek within time, might not be so from a point of view outside of time.

Oh, yeah... "Omni-all" would include both logic and illogic... If one accepts that reason no longer holds for all aspects... then contradictions, and paradoxical features can thus very well be...

ed

 

[MfA]

Well, from what I'm told from catholic people with years of studying the stuff... Hell is just a departure from God, to be without his presence, which is what causes the intolerable eternal suffering, you're supposedly given what you asked for. You abandoned God, so in the end you're allowed to completely leave his presence.

Years of self delusion not withstanding, Im pretty sure most people would choose oblivion over eternal torment ... if there is an omnipotent god then eternal suffering can be termed nothing else but a punishment.

 

[epicstruggle]

Gibson is right. Those damn jesus killing jews are still at their schema of world domination one bank at a time...

Your comment is quite misleading, to many who wont read the linked article. Gibson did same something along those lines, but which one. Well your title refers to Mel Gibson's movie, so it must have been him who said it, right? Wrong, his father said it. Does that mean Mel believes it too? Who knows, my dad says crazy things from time to time, so dont tie me with what he says. Next time take the time to atribute quotes properly it was Hutton Gibson that said that.

later,
epic

 

[Heathen]

It was atheist tripe meant for selfaggrandizement to stroke the egos of the obviously intellectualy superior nonbelievers..

I enjoyed it.

Well, if you don't believe that Jesus died for our sins then how are we supposed to achieve salvation? What do you believe and on what do you base your believes on?

Self-Belief?

God kicks them out of Paradise for disobeying him.

and then forgives them and lets them back in again later which the bible forgets to mention for some reason.

 

[V3]

Years of self delusion not withstanding, Im pretty sure most people would choose oblivion over eternal torment ... if there is an omnipotent god then eternal suffering can be termed nothing else but a punishment.

Punishments surely, on top of that, oblivion as well, for all eternity, that's eternal torment in Hell. Scary place surely.

 

[V3]

However, since he already knows that you will do the act, why isn't he angry in the first place. But, if he is angry in the first place, then maybe you wouldn't have gone counter to his will to begin with. Either way, its pretty sadistic =)

God doesn't judge on things that are going to happen.

 

[V3]

Why does got need or desire anything? God is "omni-all". A perfect being in absolute equilibrium.

For creation is act of charity, God gains nothing from it. But because of sins, for humans to avoid the wrath of God, God demands offerring. Since blood symbolise life, that's what God use for offerring or sealing covenant between God and human.

God is not indifferent between good and evil.

 

[pax]

Can God create a rock that even he cant... sigh guys will some of you ever get over this simplistic reasoning. First of all having precognition doesnt mean having unlimited precognition. Its easy to foresee from mechanisms its another to see the destiny of free willed beings.

God as being omnipotent hasnt been described in the bible. And only a few fundies have ignorantly described him as that. Its not necessary to leave logic behind in order to concieve of a supreme being. A supreme being as far as we can understand one is one that can logically be arrived at in terms of what can be defined in his qualities, abilities and nature.

The biggest hurdle still facing xtians is in properly defining god. Once youve done that and I think Ive arrived at decent well roudned definition for God you cna do away with the bs of sacrifice and eternal hell. Which when reading the bible doesnt seem so much as plain sacrifice as being a living example of what we can achieve morally. As for hell its a hellenistic perversion. Christ never actually taught it. He only used it once in an allegory which was axrtually teaching something else. But it was apopualr Greek theme that first centu israelis had taken hold of and were likely to listen better of he used it. Not all his teachings made it to text...

Hellfire I think is the result when an insincere human faces the pure sincerity of God. In that process I think the individual is annihilated and the simple essence of awareness returns to God. Who knows maybe it then gets a chance at refoming a new individuality.

In a way god did create a bigger rock. Free willed beings whose destiny he cant see as they can avoid all mechanisms.

 

[akira888]

ByteMe, epicstruggle, Legion was being sarcastic.

 

[zidane1strife]

Its not necessary to leave logic behind in order to concieve of a supreme being. A supreme being as far as we can understand one is one that can logically be arrived at in terms of what can be defined in his qualities, abilities and nature.

The world is information... A being that encompasses all forms of information, omni-present, will not only be within systems logical to us like our universe, but illogical ones as well. Such a being might even be what gives 'sense' to our basic logic itself, and might very well do so for alternate forms of it too.