The Passion

[Legion]

Since that day I have real problems taking religious people, especially Xians, seriously.

I would too if that happened in my church...

Charismatic services are truly scary.

african american in particular?

 

[John Reynolds]

african american in particular?

Never been. When I first started dating my wife I learned her paternal grandmother was a ordained Pentecostal minister. We stopped by her house one time and, unbeknownst to us, she was having services at her home. We could see and hear the people from outside, voices yelling to cast the demons of obesity out of one presumably overweight member, arms waving above their heads, etc. We cut our visit short, but not before grandma decided to fabricate how I sat in front of her and bragged about sexually violating her granddaughter. Needless to say, my father-in-law and I don't have a good relationship.

 

[Natoma]

I never quite understood what's so bad about killing Jesus. I mean, according to Xian mythology the dude was supposed to die for our sins, no?

I don't know if you meant this as a joke or not, but for some reason I find this statement profoundly hysterical in its truthfulness.

 

[Legion]

Never been.

There is not a smiley that exists to convey my revulsion to the meaningless show african charismatic churches put on. ITs like a throw back to voodoo culture...

When I first started dating my wife I learned her paternal grandmother was a ordained Pentecostal minister. We stopped by her house one time and, unbeknownst to us, she was having services at her home. We could see and hear the people from outside, voices yelling to cast the demons of obesity out of one presumably overweight member, arms waving above their heads, etc.

Sounds familiar...

We cut our visit short, but not before grandma decided to fabricate how I sat in front of her and bragged about sexually violating her granddaughter. Needless to say, my father-in-law and I don't have a good relationship.

whatever inspired you to do that...

 

[Legion]

I never quite understood what's so bad about killing Jesus. I mean, according to Xian mythology the dude was supposed to die for our sins, no?

I don't know if you meant this as a joke or not, but for some reason I find this statement profoundly hysterical in its truthfulness.

.

Hense the reason i refer to Jews and the mythical fufiller of christ rather than murderer of christ.

 

[L233]

I don't know if you meant this as a joke or not, but for some reason I find this statement profoundly hysterical in its truthfulness.

No, it was not supposed to be a joke. I really wonder why any Xian would hate Jews for killing Christ while praising Jesus for having himself sacrificed. It doesn't make any sense. The Jews obviously played their role in what Xians believe was the divine plan for salvation. Why hate the Jews for being tools of god?

There are lots of reasons to hate Jews, like them eating children, molesting kitties and being genetically evil... but killing Christ?

 

[Natoma]

Just like Life of Brian, yes?

Dogma was propaganda? Dogma didn't propagate anything, it was a comedy. There was nothing in that movie that anyone could take serious. Shit demons? Black Jesus? Chris Rock as the 13th apostel? Metatron a cynical Brit? Alanis Morissette as God?

I am so tired of Xians with a persecution complex.

Bullshit. Dogma propigated a whole shit load of material.

One major story point serves as a good example:

Jesus didn't come to start a religion.

The movie itself served the purpose of making christianity, specifically catholicism, look insipid. It sought to reveal the convolusion (a lot of it being completely contrived) in order to intellectually demonize the religion.

Yes, it was propaganda.

And sometimes....... a movie is just a movie.

 

[Legion]

I don't know if you meant this as a joke or not, but for some reason I find this statement profoundly hysterical in its truthfulness.

No, it was not supposed to be a joke. I really wonder why any Xian would hate Jews for killing Christ while praising Jesus for having himself sacrificed. It doesn't make any sense. The Jews obviously played their role in what Xians believe was the divine plan for salvation. Why hate the Jews for being tools of god?

There are lots of reasons to hate Jews, like them eating children, molesting kitties and being genetically evil... but killing Christ?

Damn good point!!! If you believe the bible you must accept YHWH, in his arrogance, lead the jews to do what they did as a part of his "divine plan."

 

[Legion]

And sometimes....... a movie is just a movie.

Yeah, i guess so. I guess Birth of a Nation was just a movie too

 

[John Reynolds]

Damn good point!!! If you believe the bible you must accept YHWH, in his arrogance, lead the jews to do what they did as a part of his "divine plan."

There's a huge difference between direct influence and foreknowledge.

 

[Legion]

Damn good point!!! If you believe the bible you must accept YHWH, in his arrogance, lead the jews to do what they did as a part of his "divine plan."

There's a huge difference between direct influence and foreknowledge.

Likewise choices and destiny.

 

[L233]

There's a huge difference between direct influence and foreknowledge.

Interesting point but I think the argument really is that god/jesus wanted to get killed because that's what it took to offer salvation to everyone. Right?

 

[Legion]

There's a huge difference between direct influence and foreknowledge.

Interesting point but I think the argument really is that god/jesus wanted to get killed because that's what it took to offer salvation to everyone. Right?

That would be what we have been lead to believe, yes.

 

[John Reynolds]

Interesting point but I think the argument really is that god/jesus wanted to get killed because that's what it took to offer salvation to everyone. Right?

Agreed, but there is a difference between God directly influencing the Scribes and Pharisees to kill His son and the Judaean religious leaders acting on their own motives (or being influenced by opposing spiritual forces, which rather suggests the Plan wasn't advertised too heavily).

 

[Legion]

Interesting point but I think the argument really is that god/jesus wanted to get killed because that's what it took to offer salvation to everyone. Right?

Agreed, but there is a difference between God directly influencing the Scribes and Pharisees to kill His son and the Judaean religious leaders acting on their own motives (or being influenced by opposing spiritual forces, which rather suggests the Plan wasn't advertised too heavily).

You can't possibly believe God influencing some one to kill jesus is A. an acceptable behavior for said deity to committ B. nothing more than just an "influence."

Having prior knowledge is infact an indicatory of predestination. God himself admitted these prophicies moved according to his divine plan. Jesus himself knew he would die and why long before it happened. Likewise another example being Saul who was moved by wicked spirits sent by God to kill David.

 

[John Reynolds]

You can't possibly believe God influencing some one to kill jesus is A. an acceptable behavior for said deity to committ B. nothing more than just an "influence."

Having prior knowledge is infact an indicatory of predestination.

Hogwash. Predestination precludes free will. Does God directly influence some of us to believe in Christ and be saved, or do we choose to do so on our own (Romans 10:9)? If it's the former then God is seriously guilty of playing favorites.

God himself admitted these prophicies moved according to his divine plan. Jesus himself knew he would die and why long before it happened.

When you know the future like the back of your own hand, it's easy to plan around it. As for Jesus longing to die, why was he praying in the garden before his capture for God to life such a burden from him, concluding with "Thy will be done"? My personal interpretation (based on a belief that the Trinity is pagan claptrap) is that Jesus had no idea what his final fate was, only learning it from God in the garden that night. I imagine it was quite the shocker.

 

[L233]

Agreed, but there is a difference between God directly influencing the Scribes and Pharisees to kill His son and the Judaean religious leaders acting on their own motives (or being influenced by opposing spiritual forces, which rather suggests the Plan wasn't advertised too heavily).

So while the result was desired, the Jews are still bad because their motives were wrong?

If Jesus/God had foreknowledge of what would happen to him he could have easily prevented it from happening (even without using any divine powers) but he chose to die. So he still actively used the Jews as a tool. Kinda reminds me of this "cop suicide" thing.

 

[John Reynolds]

So while the result was desired, the Jews are still bad because their motives were wrong?

I never said Jews were bad. Let's get that in the clear, because that would be blaming an entire group of people for what a upper caste of religious leaders within their ethnicity did thousands of years ago.

If Jesus/God had foreknowledge of what would happen to him he could have easily prevented it from happening (even without using any divine powers) but he chose to die. So he still actively used the Jews as a tool. Kinda reminds me of this "cop suicide" thing.

I don't believe in the Trinity, so try to rethink the situation from my perspective.

 

[Legion]

Hogwash.

It is a conundrum. The nature of God having a plan for all people, knowing who they will become and why, where they will end up after they die, is completely insolluble information in your reason solution.

When you know the future like the back of your own hand, it's easy to plan around it.

BS. He created the world, he created life, he created these people knowing exactly what they would do. He provided them the hardness of their hearts and wicked spirits causing them to do what they did. He not only knew it would happen he caused it to. He knew it would happen because that was his plan for the world.

As for Jesus longing to die, why was he praying in the garden before his capture for God to life such a burden from him, concluding with "Thy will be done"?

Irrelevant, you are first assuming this actually happened and that it is more than a symbolic example of dedication to God's will, two that Jesus was imparted the same information as God (knowing all). Jesus already knew what would happen, as relating to him by the holy spirit, he was simply reacting to it. Otherwise he might as well have been calling his father a liar but instead said "Thy will be done."

My personal interpretation (based on a belief that the Trinity is pagan claptrap) is that Jesus had no idea what his final fate was, only learning it from God in the garden that night. I imagine it was quite the shocker.

There were certainly hints long before what happened in the Garden that Jesus would end up leaving his apostles.

 

[Natoma]

I'll create this somewhat intelligent species. I'll make him flawed, but I won't tell him I knew I was making him flawed. I'll tell him it was his fault that he failed, even though I knew he would fail because I'm all knowing and all seeing. Then let me lay the guilt trip on him by 'dying' for him to erase his sins which I created in the first place. And through all this, I'll say that if he doesn't worship me because I'm all powerful, he's condemned to eternal suffering, through no fault of his own, but just because I wanted a damn good laugh.