The Passion

[StealthHawk]

In fact, we only have a few OT fragments predating that time and we know for sure that the whole thing was revised and edited numerous times.

Can you elaborate on that? "Only a few fragments" in particular; what about the dead sea scrolls?

 

[MfA]

I don't see any practical difference between an illusionary decision and a "real" one. Because, as I said before, you would make the same choice regardless. You are not being coerced by God into doing anything you don't want to do. Nor are you being prodded in a single direction. The choices you make are your own. If I'm standing on a cliff, I can either jump off the cliff or not jump off the cliff. Let's say that the Christian God is real and exists. I choose not to jump off the cliff. Now let's say that there is no God and he was just made up. I choose not to jump off the cliff. I went through the exact same decision making process in each scenario and arrived at exactly the same conclusion. God existing or not existing had nor bearing on whether I would jump off the cliff.

If an omnipotent omniscient god created the universe, then he was aware of every decision making process which would ever occur in his creation and by creating any specific universe decided the outcome for all of them ... so you would just be the vehicle carrying out his decision, taken at the initiation of creation.

Marco

 

[L233]

Can you elaborate on that? "Only a few fragments" in particular; what about the dead sea scrolls?

I should have been more precise: I was talking about the New Testament.

The dead sea scrolls are not NT fragments, they contain versions of OT books, the oldest ones that have been found so far. Before the dead sea scrolls, the oldest known OT manuscripts dated around 900 AD.

The earliest incomplete texts of the NT date to the third century AD and are written in Greek - the Beatty papyri and the Bodmer papyri. They are only tiny fragments of various texts which aren't of much help to confirm the authenticity of the later manuscripts.

The first complete manuscripts, the Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus, also written in Greek, date to the fourth century.

 

[Legion]

Jesus was foretold (as a savior) to come from the line of David. No such line can be established as Luke and Matthews lineages do not match. That is to say they come from the same father, but that father has two family lines they try and trace. They can't seem to agree who Jesus' grandfather is

Want to try that again ?

What exactly are you suggesting? That you refuted it with the same christian bs they always spin? Lineage is not determined by the mother. I am sorry, no matter how you try and bs your way through apologetics on this matter you will never come to a verifiable rebuttle.

 

[Legion]

Lineage? After 1000 years you could probably link half of Israel to David... Ever done your own genealogy back 1000 years? Uncle of mine went back 700 and we linked to famous figures that the genealogist said half of all frenchmen linked back to...

But I digress.

Easy to suggest, now lets see you prove that Jesus is of the lineage of David.

I dont care about lineage or miracles. I largely accept the message tho. Judaism which gave rise to 90% of xtian theology is solidly and logically built.

Of course if you deny or rationalize christian precepts they will seem logical to you. While in the real world they aren't.

It does have serious hellensitic influences some good some not so good but in the whole I accept largely the construct that has come about to try and explain our place in the universe from a meaningful, supernatural, spiritual standpoint..

I'd say that may have more to do with the hellenistic involvement in Rome which influenced chrisitanity through many factors including Constantine who helped further paganize christianity.

The bible does a good job indeed at establishing who and what god is. Its the interpretation by many if not most xtians that is at fault.

Of course it does and it shows that God is a self serving, egotistical, narcissist.

 

[John Reynolds]

If an omnipotent omniscient god created the universe, then he was aware of every decision making process which would ever occur in his creation and by creating any specific universe decided the outcome for all of them ... so you would just be the vehicle carrying out his decision, taken at the initiation of creation.

Marco

That's a very Occidental viewpoint. . .God is ultimately responsible for all that happens, even results of our own (God-given) free will.

 

[Legion]

If an omnipotent omniscient god created the universe, then he was aware of every decision making process which would ever occur in his creation and by creating any specific universe decided the outcome for all of them ... so you would just be the vehicle carrying out his decision, taken at the initiation of creation.

Marco

That's a very Occidental viewpoint. . .God is ultimately responsible for all that happens, even results of our own (God-given) free will.

Except its not really free no matter how you look at it.


Even at the most base level you have a choice to love God or go to Hell.

If your wife stopped loving you, would you send her to an endless abyss of fire to suffer in all pain and torment for the rest of eternity?

 

[John Reynolds]

Except its not really free no matter how you look at it.

Even at the most base level you have a choice to love God or go to Hell.

If your wife stopped loving you, would you send her to an endless abyss of fire to suffer in all pain and torment for the rest of eternity?

There is no Hell. There is no afterlife. When you're dead, you're dead (until at least you're raised from the dead). I know life after death is a cornerstone of predominant Christian beliefs, but I don't believe in it. Just more pagan mysticism pushed into Christianity by the Romans when they adopted the religion.

 

[pax]

Hellenistic thought actually crept in under alexander. The same way we find babylonian and egyptian influences from those epochs. But you keep the bad ideas and throw out the good as well in there legion. I pick and choose the ideas the bible thows at us and I still find a very coherent theology. So re interpretation isnt all thats needed its also some discernment. So no I dont take the bible literally or in its entirety.

 

[Legion]

There is no Hell. There is no afterlife. When you're dead, you're dead (until at least you're raised from the dead).

This is contrary to the bulk of christian thought.

I know life after death is a cornerstone of predominant Christian beliefs, but I don't believe in it. Just more pagan mysticism pushed into Christianity by the Romans when they adopted the religion.

Right, and you have the ability to decern between what is "God's truth" and what is pagan falsehood.

 

[Legion]

Hellenistic thought actually crept in under alexander. The same way we find babylonian and egyptian influences from those epochs. But you keep the bad ideas and throw out the good as well in there legion.

I disagree, i feel the pagan hellenistic mythos were influencing since day one and may have been at the core of the creation of the christian mythos. As for as cutting out the good i do not know to what you refer.

I pick and choose the ideas the bible thows at us and I still find a very coherent theology. So re interpretation isnt all thats needed its also some discernment. So no I dont take the bible literally or in its entirety.

You pick and choose what is the truth of God?

 

[John Reynolds]

This is contrary to the bulk of christian thought.

Yep, and I couldn't care less.

Right, and you have the ability to decern between what is "God's truth" and what is pagan falsehood.

Where did I claim that? I merely wrote what I personally believe.

 

[Legion]

[quote[Where did I claim that? I merely wrote what I personally believe.[/quote]

It is evident you pick and choose what to believe.

 

[John Reynolds]

It is evident you pick and choose what to believe.

After a lot of research and thought, yes I do.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

It is evident you pick and choose what to believe.

After a lot of research and thought, yes I do.

Note to Legion: It's called "faith" for a reason...

 

[V3]

What exactly are you suggesting? That you refuted it with the same christian bs they always spin? Lineage is not determined by the mother. I am sorry, no matter how you try and bs your way through apologetics on this matter you will never come to a verifiable rebuttle.

I was going to say the lineage given there was incomplete.

But since you've different idea in mind, I'll play with you.

The lineage given in Matthew

1:2 Abraham was the father2 of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, 1:3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah (by Tamar), Perez the father of Hezron, Hezron the father of Ram, 1:4 Ram the father of Amminadab, Amminadab the father of Nahshon, Nahshon the father of Salmon, 1:5 Salmon the father of Boaz (by Rahab), Boaz the father of Obed (by Ruth), Obed the father of Jesse, 1:6 and Jesse the father of David the king.

David was the father of Solomon (by the wife of Uriah3), 1:7 Solomon the father of Rehoboam, Rehoboam the father of Abijah, Abijah the father of Asa,4 1:8 Asa the father of Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat the father of Joram, Joram the father of Uzziah, 1:9 Uzziah the father of Jotham, Jotham the father of Ahaz, Ahaz the father of Hezekiah, 1:10 Hezekiah the father of Manasseh, Manasseh the father of Amon,5 Amon the father of Josiah, 1:11 and Josiah6 the father of Jeconiah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.

1:12 After7 the deportation to Babylon, Jeconiah became the father of Shealtiel,8 Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel, 1:13 Zerubbabel the father of Abiud, Abiud the father of Eliakim, Eliakim the father of Azor, 1:14 Azor the father of Zadok, Zadok the father of Achim, Achim the father of Eliud, 1:15 Eliud the father of Eleazar, Eleazar the father of Matthan, Matthan the father of Jacob, 1:16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, by whom9 Jesus was born, who is called Christ.

1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, and from David to the deportation to Babylon, fourteen generations, and from the deportation to Babylon to Christ,11 fourteen generations.

This lineage is incomplete, whoever wrote Matthew omitted some and adopted it to 14 generations, 14 generations and 14 generations for theology work.

Also note this lineage, doesn't end with Joseph the Father of Jesus, but with
"and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, by whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ."

Joseph is not the father of Jesus. For in Matthew continue on after that passage

1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ happened this way. While his mother Mary was engaged to Joseph, but before they came together,12 she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.

Affirmed Joseph is not the father of Jesus.

Furthermore, since this lineage decends from Jeconiah, this is a curse lineage.

Jeremiah 22:24 The Lord says,

“As surely as I am the living God, you, Jeconiah, king of Judah, son of Jehoiakim, will not be the earthly representative of my authority. Indeed, I will take away from you that right. 22:25 I will hand you over to those who want to take your life and whom you are afraid of. I will hand you over to King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon and his Babylonian soldiers. 22:26 I will force you and your mother who gave you birth into exile. You will be exiled to a country where neither of you were born, and you will both die there. 22:27 You will never come back to this land to which you will long to return!â€

22:28 This man, Jeconiah, will be like a broken pot someone threw away.
He will be like a clay vessel that no one wants.
Why will he and his children be forced into exile?
Why will they be thrown out into a country they know nothing about?

22:29 O land of Judah, land of Judah, land of Judah!
Listen to what the Lord has to say!

22:30 The Lord says,
“Enroll this man in the register as though he were childless.
Enroll him as a man who will not enjoy success during his lifetime.
For none of his sons will succeed in occupying the throne of David
or ever succeed in ruling over Judah.â€

The kingship of Davidic descend cannot be trace from this lineage. This lineage is useless for that. All it does is show, IF Jesus is indeed the King of the Jews of Davidic decends as the author in Gospels of Matthew suggested, than Joseph cannot be his father.


Now the lineage in Luke.

3:23 So Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years old. He was the son, as it was thought, of Joseph, the son70 of Heli, 3:24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, 3:25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 3:26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, 3:27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel,71 the son of Shealtiel,72 the son of Neri,73 3:28 the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, 3:29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 3:30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, 3:31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan,74 the son of David,75 3:32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Sala,76 the son of Nahshon, 3:33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni,77 the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 3:34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah,78 the son of Nahor, 3:35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 3:36 the son of Cainan,79 the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 3:37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,80 the son of Kenan,81 3:38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Now you said,

Lineage is not determined by the mother.

That's true in most cases, but God did make an allowance in their law.

Number 36:1 Then the heads of the family groups1 of the Gileadites, the descendant of Machir, the descendant of Manasseh, who were from the Josephite families, approached and spoke before Moses2 and before the leaders who were the heads of the Israelite families.3 36:2 They said, “The Lord commanded my lord to give4 the land as an inheritance by lot to the Israelites; and my lord was commanded by the Lord to give the inheritance of our brother Zelophehad to his daughters. 36:3 Now if they should be married to one of the men5 from another Israelite tribe, their inheritance would be taken from the inheritance of our fathers and added to the inheritance of the tribe into which they marry.6 As a result, it will be taken from the lot of our inheritance. 36:4 And when the Jubilee of the Israelites is to take place,7 their inheritance will be added to the inheritance of the tribe into which they marry. So their inheritance will be taken away from the inheritance of our ancestral tribe.â€8

36:5 Then Moses gave a ruling9 to the Israelites by the word10 of the Lord: “What the tribe of the Josephites is saying is right. 36:6 This is what11 the Lord has commanded for Zelophehad’s daughters: ‘Let them marry12 whomever they think best,13 only they must marry within the family of the tribe of their father. 36:7 In this way the inheritance of the Israelites will not be transferred14 from tribe to tribe. But every one of the Israelites must retain the ancestral heritage. 36:8 And every daughter who possesses an inheritance from any of the tribes of the Israelites must become the wife of a man from any family in her father’s tribe, so that every Israelite15 may retain the inheritance of his fathers. 36:9 No inheritance may pass from tribe to tribe. But every one of the tribes of the Israelites must retain its inheritance.â€

36:10 As the Lord had commanded Moses, so the daughters of Zelophehad did. 36:11 For the daughters of Zelophehad—Mahlah, Tirzah, Hoglah, Milcah, and Noah—were married to the sons of their uncles.16 36:12 They were married into the families of the Manassehites, the descendants of Joseph, and their inheritance remained in the tribe of their father’s family.

36:13 These are the commandments and the decisions that the Lord commanded the Israelites through the authority17 of Moses, on the plains of Moab by the Jordan River,18 opposite Jericho.19

So there you go, it is within their law to pass inheritance through women as long as she doesn't have brother and married within her own tribe.

Mary doesn't have a brother, and and seen in Matthew, married within her own tribe.

So there you go.

You might not agree, but really its not for you to argue.

 

[pax]

Think Legion was responding to me there JR. Yes I was a Greco Roman History major in U Legion so I know a little bit. One can know some truths but not the whole truth... My idea and concept of who and what God is is derived from judeo xtianity and its largely solid as I find no logic issue in what I believe and thats important to me. But I do recognize the effect of human input as well as the inspiration\revelation that brought the bible about. So the OT talks about a vengeful god? I dont have to accept that literally. Its obvious humans have humanized their gods throughout history and not just in judaic based religions.

I can give respect to some of the wisdom in such book collections as the bible but not accept every thing thats taught in it.

 

[L233]

There is no Hell. There is no afterlife. When you're dead, you're dead (until at least you're raised from the dead)

Then what do we need a saviour for?

 

[L233]

Judaism which gave rise to 90% of xtian theology is solidly and logically built.

Judaism is bunk. Christianity at least can claim the benefit of doubt when it comes to the stories in the gospels because we have very little non-biblical information about the life of JC.

The biblical timeline and history in the OT on the other hand have been proven bunk by modern archeology.

Besides, I'd rate the actual influence of the OT and Judaism on modern Xianity as rather low.

 

[John Reynolds]

Then what do we need a saviour for?

The new birth? Eternal life after the gathering together?