The Order: 1886

[London Geezer]

The point that's being made on here and on an exasperating number of other threads and posts is not that it's CGI - it isn't - but that it 'looks' like CGI. Of course it won't use systems and features that can be afforded on real CGI. But do the shortcuts make it look like what we have seen from offline CGI renders in the past? At times, yes it does.
Still not touching this. I remember The Bouncer on PS2. This reminds me of that, hype around the graphics and only about the graphics, then the game came out and there was no game.

 

[orangpelupa]

any idea when will the order can be pre ordered and preloaded from PSN?

No, but it sure looks like crap. Last time I used that term it was hyperbolic. This time I actually mean it.

you mean it as a real hyperbolic? im confused

 

[Shifty Geezer]

@VFX_Veteran
CGI is a very, very broad term not just meaning the latest, greatest, most expensive rendering techniques used in high-end animation production. The use here means looking less like a computer game and more like an animation. Call it 'computer animation' if you will. You don't need all the best rendering techniques to produce something that looks comparable. Heck, this is the very basic principle of the universally accepted notion of diminishing returns - less demanding, less accurate rendering methods begin to approximate more closely the high-end, demanding solutions as time progresses. Several generations into realtime console games, the gap between CGI renders and in-game visuals has closed, such that games can start to look like CGI. There are situations in games now where seeing a still or watching a clip, one has to question whether it's CGI or realtime and only on closer inspection does the real-time nature show itself. Hence 'looks like CGI' as opposed to 'is the same as CGI'.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

The point that's being made on here and on an exasperating number of other threads and posts is not that it's CGI - it isn't - but that it 'looks' like CGI. Of course it won't use systems and features that can be afforded on real CGI. But do the shortcuts make it look like what we have seen from offline CGI renders in the past? At times, yes it does..

I showed one of our look development artists some of The Order clips and he immediately pointed out all the flaws.. so yea, from a perspective of someone that doesn't have "trained eyes" in CG, I can see how they would make that statement.

 

[chris1515]

The only things that's 'like' CGI visuals is the GGX model they use for their specular BRDF, their sheen shader for fabrics and the desaturated colors (which AC:Unity mimics very well too). Everything else is not even close.

1) No real hair curves
2) No physically plausible diffuse shader (they use Lambertian model)
3) No physically plausible hair shader (Kajiya is a rough approximation long abandoned)
4) No soft shadows from real area lights (need a path tracer to do this)
5) No real ambient occlusion (SSAO doesn't even cut it)
6) No real reflections
7) No real SSS
etc..
etc..

I could go on and on and on. Even Naughty Dog know their in-game model of Drake during the E3 trailer isn't close to CGI when people commented it looked like it -- and that model destroys any of The Order models. Just saying..

It is not offline rendering but the talent of graphical programmer and artist is what make the Order look like old offline rendering.

Real hair or very complex geometry is impossible with current rendering path of GPU.

For Hair shader they told in a presentation, they did not have time to try to do a real time marschner...

Full scene GI approximation with correct quality like Voxel Cone tracing or Voxel Octree are not fast enough before next generation hardware at least...

 

[VFX_Veteran]

@VFX_Veteran
CGI is a very, very broad term not just meaning the latest, greatest, most expensive rendering techniques used in high-end animation production. The use here means looking less like a computer game and more like an animation. Call it 'computer animation' if you will. You don't need all the best rendering techniques to produce something that looks comparable. Heck, this is the very basic principle of the universally accepted notion of diminishing returns - less demanding, less accurate rendering methods begin to approximate more closely the high-end, demanding solutions as time progresses. Several generations into realtime console games, the gap between CGI renders and in-game visuals has closed, such that games can start to look like CGI. There are situations in games now where seeing a still or watching a clip, one has to question whether it's CGI or realtime and only on closer inspection does the real-time nature show itself. Hence 'looks like CGI' as opposed to 'is the same as CGI'.

I see what you are saying but IMO, it's the desaturated look in this game that's making it appear that way more so than any technology feat (PBR). If I saturated the colors of The Order, it would look more like AC:Unity and therefore "videogamey". KZ2 early footage was touted to be CGI-like for the very same reason IMO.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

For Hair shader they told in a presentation, they did not have time to try to do a real time marschner...

A full Marschner implementation would need at least flat ribbons in order to work well (it's model was derived from a real hair tube). Also, implementing all the specular lobes without using lookup tables (4 in total) would be very taxing on the hardware I'd imagine. I'd love to see a studio try and do it in real time though (i.e. maybe the next Tomb Raider?).

Full scene GI approximation with good quality like Voxel Cone tracing or Voxel Octree are not fast enough before nex generation hardware at least...

And that technique seems to only cover diffuse and not indirect specular. The SSR approach is very limited IMO.

 

[Sigfried1977]

any idea when will the order can be pre ordered and preloaded from PSN?



you mean it as a real hyperbolic? im confused

No, I really do think it looks like crap now. Crap as in this looks like the most generic, unimaginative AAA drivel I've seen in a long time. At least that first hour does.

 

[chris1515]

My only complaint is that some of part of realtime rendering are better than old offline rendering like Toy Story or the Killzone cg.

But Geometry complexity, IQ or Motion Blur, DOF, or volumetric particles are nowhere near old offline rendering and for me it is the main difference between real-time rendering and offline rendering.

Toy Story age is visible but the movie is not ugly but less beautiful than more recent offline rendered movie.

In a few year we will find Drive Club ugly because of IQ shortcoming and other rendering default.

Before we hit 1995 Toy Story or Killzone CG or FF The Spirit With level of geometry complexity ,IQ,motion blur or DOF, I don't think the word diminishing return will be a reality...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It's not just desaturated colours. You can grab a game, desaturate it, and it it still looks like a game. Obviously pin-sharp pixels are very gamey. The Order and other CGI-like titles are breaking up the clinical cleanliness of computer generated images (something CGI learned to do a long time ago) and in a way that looks 'optically accurate', so DOF and moblur looks convincing where last gen it tended to be pretty obvious with things like hard silhouettes on blurred characters. The subtle (and sometimes not-so-subtle) CA and lens blur and noise. The overall realism of the lighting, baked or not. The movement of the character in TO's case.

I consider it disingenuous to say any developer can recreate the graphical accomplishment of TO by slapping a colour filter over the render. RAD have brought a lot of effects artistically to the job and blended together something that works extremely well as evidenced by the number of people impressed. Other games apply the same effects without the same results. It's similar to saying anyone can paint like Botticelli - all he did was slap some paint on a canvas. RAD went for a style and mostly nailed in within the constraints of hardware, time and budget. They haven't claimed to be using superior rendering tech to anyone else, or new techniques, or anything else, and no-one's suggested they are uber-devs either. They've just succeeded with their art with a result that's convincingly like a computer animation but not to everyone's taste, which is what you'd expect from art.

As long as no-one's saying, "RAD are the best devs ever because they can make a PS4 render like a CGI render farm in realtime!!" or, "CGI peeps gonna be unemployed soon because games can do it all realtime!" there's no real a problem with the response to The Order's limited, controlled, excellent executed artistry.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

My only complaint is that some of part of realtime rendering are better than old offline rendering like Toy Story or the Killzone cg.

But Geometry complexity, IQ or Motion Blur, DOF, or volumetric particles are nowhere near old offline rendering and for me it is the main difference between real-time rendering and offine rendering.

Toy Story age is visible but the movie is not ugly but less beautiful than more recent offline rendered movie.

In a few year we will find Drive Club ugly because of IQ shortcoming and other rendering default.

Before we hit 1995 Toy Story or Killzone CG or FF The Spirit With level of geometry complexity ,IQ,motion blur or DOF, I don't think the sord diminishing return is a reality...

Agreed.. geometry is a huge limitation of the hardware today. It can do SIMD very well once the triangles have already gone through the pipe, but I see bottlenecks on both sides.. not enough bandwidth for processing a huge batch of triangles and not enough speed for doing complex things outside of comping buffers together from pre-computed data, and overall not enough memory either.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

It's not just desaturated colours. You can grab a game, desaturate it, and it it still looks like a game. Obviously pin-sharp pixels are very gamey. The Order and other CGI-like titles are breaking up the clinical cleanliness of computer generated images (something CGI learned to do a long time ago) and in a way that looks 'optically accurate', so DOF and moblur looks convincing where last gen it tended to be pretty obvious with things like hard silhouettes on blurred characters.

Bokah DOF, yes.. but I don't see that in this game. And moblur always looks shady in every game I've played.. I usually turn it off. If you want to throw film grain in there, then yea, I'll agree with that. CA is terrible and because of the lack of texture resolution, looks horrible. I usually turn that off too.

The overall realism of the lighting, baked or not. The movement of the character in TO's case.

TO's animation isn't the best we've seen. The characters still have a "stiffness" to them and the uncanny valley of the eyes is still there. I will say that the lighting is on par with AC:Unity which is to say outstanding!

I consider it disingenuous to say any developer can recreate the graphical accomplishment of TO by slapping a colour filter over the render. RAD have brought a lot of effects artistically to the job and blended together something that works extremely well as evidenced by the number of people impressed. Other games apply the same effects without the same results. It's similar to saying anyone can paint like Botticelli - all he did was slap some paint on a canvas. RAD went for a style and mostly nailed in within the constraints of hardware, time and budget. They haven't claimed to be using superior rendering tech to anyone else, or new techniques, or anything else, and no-one's suggested they are uber-devs either. They've just succeeded with their art with a result that's convincingly like a computer animation but not to everyone's taste, which is what you'd expect from art.

I'll give you that. Their art is fantastic.. but so is AC:Unity. I am more impressed with Unity overall (at least on PC) because it's actually open-world and has more freedom. Yes, the art looks fantastic and the way they executed it shows a lot of talent, but I still think I'll be able to tell it's a game when I'm playing it in front of me and not a CGI-like movie.

 

[orangpelupa]

. The characters still have a "stiffness" to them

i think in one of the interview/behind the scene on Naughty Dog, they said mocap still need to be "hand tweaked" to make it looks better. They say some minute movement need to be exagerated.

dunno its the limitation of the mocap system or what...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yes, the art looks fantastic and the way they executed it shows a lot of talent, but I still think I'll be able to tell it's a game when I'm playing it in front of me and not a CGI-like movie.

That's true of every game made thus far and probably always will be true of games as the POV is completely contrary to a computer animation. eg. Drive Club looks like CGI in the replay cams and photo shots from the exterior, but not inside while driving, because car animations always show the car off from the outside. By association, one would assume an internal view is either a game or real life. At least, that's how my brain interprets it. People will have their own connotations they ascribe to words and contexts and interpretations. In most shots I've seen of TO, the styling wouldn't look too out of place in a computer animation even if the camera shot is not what you'd expect. That's not true of other games I've seen where the gameplay clearly looks game-y, at least in console versions. I just skipped through first hour's gameplay of AC:U on YouTube and it clearly looked like a game, like Uncharted, in the pieces I saw.

 

[nightshade]

I'm sorry but I can't understand how one can point out the stiffness of animation in The Order as one of the shortcomings but consider AC Unity to be more impressive in it's illusion in the very same post when that's a game marred with LOD issues and glitchy animation.

If anything AC Unity is the prime example of a game that breaks the illusion in motion.

 

[Arwin]

People are currently very allergic to QTEs unless it is in something like God of War, where it is fairly well integrated into the action gameplay.

I don't know how I feel about this game yet. There's a lot of negativity about it. I haven't played very many games like this at all however. Somehow Gears of War really didn't click with me - none of the characters or story appealed to me and the basic gameplay didn't do too much for me either. I don't know that it will be different for me here, but the story and voice acting seem a lot better. I'll await some impressions from people I trust

 

[Scott_Arm]

I really disliked the characters, story and general art direction of Gears of War, but what drew me in was the pace of the game and how well it played. Things like the roadie cam, and active reloads and the chainsaw duels really made even the most basic elements of the game exciting. Essentially, they nailed the gameplay. I think stylistically the Order is much more appealing to me. Whether they got the gameplay right, I can't tell. That leaked gameplay looks fairly typical, but sometimes things click more when you play them even though they look mediocre from vids. Judging a game from the first hours is typically not a great idea. A lot of games make the mistake of starting slow. A lot of action films feature a great action scene at the beginning to set the tone for the rest of the film. For whatever reason that's lost on a lot of games and you end up with some really long and drawn out tutorial type level that takes an hour to play through.

 

[MrFox]

Andrea Pessino @AndreaPessino
Today I met the first journalist that had finished the game - I was moved by how much he liked it and he "got" it all. We talked a lot...

I don't know, but if there's enough things to "get" and to discuss after finishing the game, my hope that the story will have subtlety, and interesting reflections about the era, just went up a notch.

 

[Prophecy2k]

I don't know, but if there's enough things to "get" and to discuss after finishing the game, my hope that the story will have subtlety, and interesting reflections about the era, just went up a notch.

I dunno MrFox... that journo in question could have just been too afriad of Mr Pessino to tell him what he really felt.

I mean... have you not seen the size of that guy!? Even the dude's voice has got muscles ;-)

 

[Deleted member 11852]

MJP crush puny journalist