The non-standard game interfaces discussion thread (move, voice, vitality, etc.)

[patsu]

Sony stressed the sorcery demo as "the advantage of buttons" type of thing, but while watching it struck me you could do it with Natal. Just put spell cycle on a left hand wave, cast on the right.

But then I remember you have to navigate. Can be done on subcontroller with Move, Not sure about Natal. You could walk in place or something, but that would be pretty lame...

I suspect the navigation is done with one of the buttons on Move (Hold down to walk, like Heavy Rain). There is no subcontroller in the Sorcery demo.

Also, because there is no reticule, the game may estimate where the user is firing based on his absolute position in the game and the Move orientation. However I am not sure.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I suspect the navigation is done with one of the buttons on Move (Hold down to walk, like Heavy Rain). There is no subcontroller in the Sorcery demo.

Also, because there is no reticule, the game may estimate where the user is firing based on his absolute position in the game and the Move orientation. However I am not sure.

Could also be very heavy aim assist. Closest target to the enter of the screen type of thing. If there aren't a lot of enemies (1 or 2 in view) the illusion of complete control won't be broken. Or if all your "damage" spells are Area of Effect, then again you won't lose the illusion of complete control.

Regards,
SB

 

[patsu]

Could also be very heavy aim assist. Closest target to the enter of the screen type of thing. If there aren't a lot of enemies (1 or 2 in view) the illusion of complete control won't be broken. Or if all your "damage" spells are Area of Effect, then again you won't lose the illusion of complete control.

He was able to fire at spots where there is no monster. It blends in with his action too. That's why it's impressive.

We will know soon.

EDIT:

Yea, I definitely think Kinect is going to be a bigger success than Move, especially considering MS backs their initiatives to a much greater degree than Sony does - as devs like Joker has mentioned.

The tech bloggers seem to think so too:

EDIT:
http://gizmodo.com/5567221/how-sony-lost-the-videogame-hardware-race

I don't think Gizmodo needs to worry for Sony. After looking at their E3 presentation, I think they should be fine by growing steadily from the core gamers. Nintendo is weaker here. And Kinect doesn't speak well to the core gamers. As long as they have a niche, they will grow based on existing Blu-ray momentum and new initiatives + games (e.g., My last hardcore 360 friend just bought a PS3 this morning out of the blue).

One wonders how deep their partnership with Google is at this moment.

 

[zed]

Ageing controllers fails, buttons get loose, etc.

If my mouse button breaks + only clicks maybe 9/10 x Im gonna get a new mouse cause thats not good enuf, youre comparing something that is working perfectly at the start vs something that is imperfectly working at the start

I saw the forza4 demo + it was strange sometimes theres like 300msec lag sometimes none, what the hells going on?
as Scott_Arm linked to above
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/...tm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss

I was able to make subtle corrections to my steering, and I performed very well on my run. Of course, there seemed to be an assist or two turned on

aha that explains it not to mention you couldnt control acceleration,braking,gears etc. I dont know about car racers but arent they sorta important?

I do agree kinect has better buzz than move now, but I have a feeling when it actually launches and the foibles become apparent when ppl actually try it out themselves, it could turn out to be a bit of a misser

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Hmmm, I found this interesting from a link that was posted earlier...

Link... http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/...tm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss

I asked if the added Kinect support had much overhead. Is it chewing through processing cycles? "We have our own engine," I was told, as if that explained everything.

That seems to either support the fact that the developer is in control of what parts of Kinect are being used (less resources) and/or a developer can develope their own "Kinect control software" on the X360 which may or may not use as much resources as the default Kinect control software.

Different "control software" specially designed by Turn10 might explain why they didn't seem to be as limited to being in a certain area as other games. Then again Kinectimals shows gameplay control not limited to one area either. I'm still of the idea that demos being in one area is just easier for MS while they continue to finetune and calibrate the unit.

Edit - and this part from the same article about Your Shape...

The tech is certainly impressive, and the way it was able to sense my movements during the Yoga workout in order to give me pointers was amazing.

Damn, I cannot wait to try that title out.

Regards,
SB

 

[Rangers]

Oh I think it will be a smash hit with the casuals. I expect it to be a smash hit in general.

I'm not sure. From the get go I've labeled Kinect as a watch and see thing. I really dont have a clear idea where it's headed, whether it will be popular etc. Reminds me of Sony's home. I honestly thought that could be as huge as something like wow, but I wasn't sure, I could only wait and see.

Not to cause controversy but for Move I've got a better idea. I think given the tech and cost and Sony's hardcore focus, I think it's going to have a hard time surviving long term. But of course, I could be very wrong.

 

[patsu]

Move and Wiimote+ ? Nintendo and Sony will just co-develop this market together (whether they like it or not). They own different audiences afterall -- until the next Wii comes out that is.

The same for 3D gaming. ^_^

 

[Brad Grenz]

I suspect the navigation is done with one of the buttons on Move (Hold down to walk, like Heavy Rain). There is no subcontroller in the Sorcery demo.

He's got a navigation controller in his left hand during the Sorcery Demo. You can see pretty clearly in the beginning of the video posted upthread the Move controller is like rubber-banded to a second object that he takes in his off hand.

 

[patsu]

He's got a navigation controller in his left hand during the Sorcery Demo. You can see pretty clearly in the beginning of the video posted upthread the Move controller is like rubber-banded to a second object that he takes in his off hand.

Aye, I see it now. Thanks !

 

[Scott_Arm]

The way Sorcery seems to work is he selects spells with the navigation control using the radial dial that comes up. Then when he swings the wand, it fires a spell in roughly the direction he is swinging, most likely with a good amount of aim assist since there is no reticle. Could be am assist free, but with a shaking motion, it would be difficult to control the vertical component of your aim. Maybe horizontal is aim assist free, but vertical has aim assist. It didn't seem like you could control the camera to tilt up or down. Some spells that you select obviously have certain motions you need to complete to prepare them, like the tornado.

When he drew the line of fire, did he point the wand at the screen? I know a reticle didn't come up. I'm wondering how you control the distance that the line begins away from you without some kind of pointer.

 

[Scott_Arm]

For Kinect CPU usage, it only makes sense that the fixed cost wouldn't be that big, but the more you use it, the more CPU usage you incur. I imagine there is a huge library of functions in the development kit. Depending on what you call, and how often, you'll use more processor time. There would be some basic functions you'd have to call to prep the hardware, and some amount of memory and processor time used reading the raw data from the device. You might be able to limit that by ignoring data from the 2D camera, or the time of flight camera, depending on what you want to do. Most of the processor time would be taken up by calling functions that interpret and manipulate that data. It would be just like any other device. The more data processing you do, the more CPU you use. Maybe at some point we'll be able to hear from devs about how much CPU time and memory you have to use to track a single skeleton etc.

 

[obonicus]

Not to cause controversy but for Move I've got a better idea. I think given the tech and cost and Sony's hardcore focus, I think it's going to have a hard time surviving long term. But of course, I could be very wrong.

Given what next gen is probably going to be, even if interest on Move wanes completely, it'll probably reappear when the next generation rolls out.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

The way Sorcery seems to work is he selects spells with the navigation control using the radial dial that comes up. Then when he swings the wand, it fires a spell in roughly the direction he is swinging, most likely with a good amount of aim assist since there is no reticle. Could be am assist free, but with a shaking motion, it would be difficult to control the vertical component of your aim. Maybe horizontal is aim assist free, but vertical has aim assist. It didn't seem like you could control the camera to tilt up or down. Some spells that you select obviously have certain motions you need to complete to prepare them, like the tornado.

When he drew the line of fire, did he point the wand at the screen? I know a reticle didn't come up. I'm wondering how you control the distance that the line begins away from you without some kind of pointer.

Unless there is kind of Calibration like Wii, where you can define the size and location of your display there will have to be some heavy aim assist. The game won't know if you have a 32" screen or a 60" screen.

That said, if there is calibration to let the game know screen size and location. And there is calibration to let the game know where the player is. And there is true 1 to 1 motion mapping. And the player doesn't move from his spot after calibration... Then it's quite possible to somewhat accurately "throw" at something displayed on screen.

[EDIT] Just watched the Sorc video from the Sony conference. Looks like there's a left aim assist zone, right aim assist zone, and center aim assist zone. If you watch when it shows him and the screen at the same time. Center is just a forward flick of the wand. While for right and left he holds the wand out to the side and flicks it.

For the Tornado it appears to track where you move the wand. And is it just me or when he's mending the bridge and doing the circular thingy, it seems to only be picking up 5 or 6 points in the circle. So rather than a nice circle to track his motion, it ends up as a very irregular polyhedron. Perhaps the game is lagging and dropping down to low frames and thus too low to track a the wand around every point of the circle.

Very cool with the multiple uses of some spells though. Burning hands (the flame arc) and wall of fire depending on gesture. And then combining it with tornado.

Didn't see anything that couldn't be done with Kinetic. There wasn't a demonstrated need for accuracy or fast response in that. Neither of which are strong points for an RPG adventure. Very cool possibilities though.

Regards,
SB

 

[scooby_dooby]

Didn't see anything that couldn't be done with Kinetic.

lol, other than move your character!?

I really don't see much potential in Kinect for any sort of remotely 'traditional' type of game. Move is far superior there. I think the problem for Sony though, is that their target market is much much smaller.

So, while Sony is creating a much better game controller, Kinect will probably be a much more successful product in the end. If you're measuring success by sales anyways...

 

[eastmen]

lol, other than move your character!?

I really don't see much potential in Kinect for any sort of remotely 'traditional' type of game. Move is far superior there. I think the problem for Sony though, is that their target market is much much smaller.

So, while Sony is creating a much better game controller, Kinect will probably be a much more successful product in the end. If you're measuring success by sales anyways...

Why can't you just use the 360 controller to move your character ?

You use a controller on the wii and move to control a character , why can't it be the same on the 360. We already know the controler works with natal.

 

[zed]

Why can't you just use the 360 controller to move your character ?

Yes you could be that defeats the whole purpose of kinect
remember its marketed as You are the controller i.e. you dont need a controller to use it, plus the default xbox360 controller is made to be held in two hands at once, thus they'ld have to come out with a single hand controller, something like the wii-mote or move controllers.
Look at the Forza demo all you control is basically left, right. I mean it cant hardly get more simple control scheme than that.
Now to add acceleration,brake,gears, handbrake,clutch etc controls.
What do you do? Its not so easy.
Lift the right leg up to accelerate, hiccup to change gear, wiggle you ears to engage the clutch
With a traditional controller you could do all this easily (plus theres less lag + it works 100% everytime).
I believe ppl are coming slowly around to my original points that kinect is best for party/fitness stuff, i.e. where accuracy is not important

 

[messyman]

Can you use the Dualshock 3 along side of Move?
I remember at last year's TGS, Capcom showed RE5 Alternative with DS3 in one hand and the Move on the other.
If that's still possible then I won't have to buy the navigation controller.

 

[joker454]

Yes you could be that defeats the whole purpose of kinect

Not really. The purpose is to get non gamers interested, and that includes getting gamers playing together with non gamers. The simple example is a hardcore gamer that would love to play games with their spouse, but spouse would rather inhale ammonia than play hardcore games that are just too fast/confusing/complicated. So combine the two. Make a game that the hardcore can play like normal with a regular controller as always, but allow the option of having a non gamer join in the same game using kinect in some way. Dumb example might be while playing Red Dead Redemption, maybe non gamer handles simple things like the lasso, and gamer does everything else. Or in Blur, maybe non gamer selects and launches the powerups, while again gamer does everything else. Non gamer with kinect may play a very minor role but that's fine, it still is a way to get them both playing together. Then gamer can continue to feel all l33t while playing their hardcore game with their regular controller, and non gamer spouse can now finally also get to join in.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

lol, other than move your character!?

The EXACT same way you move the character in the Sorcery demo? Since they show using the move navigation controller which can be subbed with a regular PS3 controller there would be no reason something like this on Kinect couldn't use the standard 360 controller.

Yes you could be that defeats the whole purpose of kinect
remember its marketed as You are the controller i.e. you dont need a controller to use it, plus the default xbox360 controller is made to be held in two hands at once, thus they'ld have to come out with a single hand controller, something like the wii-mote or move controllers.

Ah I see so sort of like a fundamentalist, if it isn't absolutely pure and chaste it is meaningless? If a developer wishes to have a game using both a controller and Kinect, it is now heresy?

As I've noted previously, MS's main target demographic are, as you said, those that do not wish to use a controller/are intimidated by the controller. But their secondary opportunitiy demographics don't have to be that.

There's already talk by devs of using Kinect in conjunction with regular controllers. I'm not sure why that's so hard to grasp by some people.

I believe ppl are coming slowly around to my original points that kinect is best for party/fitness stuff, i.e. where accuracy is not important

Fortunately, those people aren't the ones developing games, or it would turn out like you said.

There's been hints here and there in Kinect articles that the more "exciting" Kinect games will start with the second wave of games.

Capcom has already stated that one of their core franchises that hasn't been used in recent years will get the Kinect treatment. And Capcom doesn't really make non-core games.

Regards,
SB

 

[corduroygt]

Can you use the Dualshock 3 along side of Move?
I remember at last year's TGS, Capcom showed RE5 Alternative with DS3 in one hand and the Move on the other.
If that's still possible then I won't have to buy the navigation controller.

Yes, you can use a DS3 instead of the navigation controller:
http://us.playstation.com/ps3/accessories/scph-98061.html

Note- DUALSHOCK®3 wireless controller can be used in place of the navigation controller for all games that are compatible with the navigation controller

I tried holding a DS3 with my left hand, and unless you had to press both triggers at the same time, it was definitely servicable.