The Next-gen Situation discussion *spawn

There's other factors, PC have more raw power and generally much larger caches....

Just because a piece of software uses 'x' amount of bandwidth doesn't mean that its using it efficiently.

360's CPU arguably has half the bandwidth of Cell and it seems to be coping just fine, showing that even in a console CPU bandwidth is hardly ever the main problem, thinking back I can't think of any console that had a CPU that's been bandwidth bound.

Just because software is written one way efficiently doesn't mean it wouldn't also be efficient written a different way. For instance if you use a lot of precomputed values in an algorithm it could speed up the computation time at the expense of memory use but if there is both a lot of memory and a lot of bandwidth you could therefore speed up computation significantly.

If architecture A can do 3* the work per clock with 10* the memory use compared to Architecture B but architecture B is 2* faster than architecture A then architecture A will still be faster if there is sufficient cache/memory bandwidth available.
 
That's more because no one really bothers with true simulation games on PC and not because the hardware was not capable.

I agree, and I didnt said that console games look better because consoles are more powerful than PCs :rolleyes: I just said : console games look better in the launchtime of consoles, and by the time PCs catch up and surpass consoles (crysis was an anomaly in that regard). why is that ? because console developers put more effort into harnessing the new console hardware, PC developers on the other hand cant create games just for the sake of the hundreds of gamers possessing high end PC, they can only develop for the least common denominator, by the time the lest common denominator becomea lot more powerful than consoles, PC developers can than create advanced graphics for PC (half life 1 in 1998, Half life 2/doom3 in 2004).

And prologue looked like ass, texture quality was poor, image quality was equally as bad and the lighting was bland.

I wasn't very impressed by it when I saw it at all and I'm a massive GT fan...

It was and is nothing more then a high resolution GT4

Maybe we are not talking about the same game and you are mixing GT4 HD with GT HD with GT prologue with GT5...if not than No comment for your statement (GT prologue is just a high resolution GT4 ? seriously :oops:) and by the way GT prologue had some better textures than GT5, polyphony digital was obliged to cut down some graphics quality assets to add other graphical features possible (more cars per screen (16 for most circuits), the damage system, weather system...etc)


But for everything else, the exclusive software isn't going to make the games technically better.

However, unlike previous console generations where the PC games were lagging behind, we will now have the same games on PC from day 1. On better hardware, looking better. We'll have x86 and AMD GPU in both consoles by accounts, and bugger x86 and GPUs in PCs. It's a no brainer that consoles will not have an edge.

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1- At least for the first 2 years of a console life, a lot if not most of the exclusive games ARE INDEED technically better than multiplatform games. Actually it is the exclusive games that showcase the power of any console hardware, it has always been like that, not only for the reasons I already explained (specialization + priviliged access to development tools) but also for marketing commercial reasons. Microsoft and sony have every reason to invest a lot of money to showcase the power of their hardware.

2- So even this time around it wont help PCs that they run te same multiplatform games, exclusive games would use the consoles in a more suitable impressive way and couldd indeed surpass anything multiplatform / PC games can do.



Whether consoles have an immediate advantage over PCs will probably depend on whether or not they have a very wide memory bus with stacked memory with a low latency connection between the CPU and GPU. PCs don't have a lot of memory bandwidth to the main CPU and there is a lot of latency between the CPU and GPU and in gaming PCs you cannot expect an APU configuration. It isn't a question of outright throughput or technology but whether or not there is a significant difference which can be exploited on consoles that doesn't exist on PCs.

Thanks for bringing up another good argument supporting my ideas about why console games could look better and be technically more impressive than PC games at least in the launchtime period of consoles ;)
 
1- At least for the first 2 years of a console life, a lot if not most of the exclusive games ARE INDEED technically better than multiplatform games.
How do you measure that? they are more heavily funded, yes, but 'technically better' is a nigh impossible to prove without being a top software engineer and having access to the code base to see how these games are written and what they do under the hood.

2- So even this time around it wont help PCs that they run te same multiplatform games, exclusive games would use the consoles in a more suitable impressive way and couldd indeed surpass anything multiplatform / PC games can do.
How can a 2 TFlop console with high utilisation thanks to efficient exclusive code impress people more than a 10 TFlop monster even if it's barely hitting 50% utilisation? ND's game will have impressive lighting and clever tricks that make it look good, but some EA or Ubisoft title running inefficient brute-force solutions is still going to be far better. UE4 and Crytek cross-platform games won't make great use of the consoles maybe (although chances are they will if the console hardwares are straight-forward), but they'll still stretch far further on PC with more content and detail at high quality. No jungle on PS4 will be as impressive as a jungle on Almighty's latest rig, no matter what Sony first-party dev makes that jungle, if the PC has several times more everything from BW to processing power to storage.

The software landscape has changed. Everything you've said was true for previous consoles, but doesn't stand any more unless the consoles pull out a special hardware bonus.
 
Socket 1155 ( Sandy and Ivy ) didn't replace the Triple channel x58 chipset, the Quad channel x79 chipset did.

Sandy and Ivy were the mid-range replacement for the dual channel P55 chipset.

And sandy and Ivy's memory controller are such a jump over the previous generation that they offer the same bandwidth as the triple channel x58 chipset CPU's.
SNB and IVB do indeed show better bus utilization, but mostly in single-threaded situations that already saturate the dual-channel interface. Nehalem's wider interface shows its potential in heavily threaded and I/O bound workloads (despite the older architecture), where the raw throughput is the limitation. Of course, such cases are rare in a desktop environment, but more typical for the servers and that's why the net gains are not that visible for the regular user.
Intel actually didn't intended to release the tri-channel Nehalem to the consumer market at the prime time, but Lynnfield platform was delayed so they had to fill the time-frame with something.
 
I somehow doubt that the Saturn port of Quake was running at 640*480 at 25fps, with bilinear filtering and such features.

Probably didn't even look as good as Quake PC in software rendering mode on a Pentium II.

No, but Scud Race ran in 640*480 (IIRC) at 60 fps and looked way better than Quake. And you could not make a reasonable version for Saturn, but you could for Quake.
 
1- At least for the first 2 years of a console life, a lot if not most of the exclusive games ARE INDEED technically better than multiplatform games. Actually it is the exclusive games that showcase the power of any console hardware, it has always been like that, not only for the reasons I already explained (specialization + priviliged access to development tools) but also for marketing commercial reasons. Microsoft and sony have every reason to invest a lot of money to showcase the power of their hardware.

I'm still not convinced this will be the case this generation. We have a small handful of very well established 3rd party engines which have excellent development tools and have been targetted at the same graphics architectures that will appear in the consoles (DX11 level) for some time now. These developers have plenty of experience working with next gen console level DX11 hardware in the PC and it's fairly dubious as to whether first party console developers who thus far would have had limited exposure to DX11 outside of dev kits and will be building new engines from the ground up will be able to compete with that, let alone clearly exceed it.

I'm not saying your wrong, you have some good points but there are other things to be considered which make the situation much less clear cut. We can't just assume this time that first party exclusives are going to look better than multiplatform games from big development houses using well established, highly supported DX11 3rd party engines.

As I said previously, Gears was built on a multiplatform engine this generation and is touted by most as the best example of that generations early graphics. Microsoft paid for it to be 1st party but the engine itself could just as easily have been producing games like that for the PC or PS3 in the same period. Exclusivity there was a business decision, not a technical boon of working only to one specific architecture.
 
No, but Scud Race ran in 640*480 (IIRC) at 60 fps and looked way better than Quake. And you could not make a reasonable version for Saturn, but you could for Quake.

Seriously ? The Saturn port of Quake looked worse than PC software rendering.

Cheers
 
No, but Scud Race ran in 640*480 (IIRC) at 60 fps and looked way better than Quake. And you could not make a reasonable version for Saturn, but you could for Quake.

Why are you graphically comparing a fixed track racing game with the first true 3d FPS ever made?
 
The software landscape has changed. Everything you've said was true for previous consoles, but doesn't stand any more unless the consoles pull out a special hardware bonus.

so at least we do agree that in the past a lot of console games launch titles or second generation titles had an advantage graphically over PC games. (Ridge racer for ps1, Mario64 for N64, soul calibur on dreamcast, gran turismo3 on ps2, Halo1 on xbox1, gears of war for xbox360...)

But we disagree if yes or no this historical pattern would continue in the future for nextgen consoles (ps4/xboxnext).

Wait and see who would be right in his predictions ! just remember that you hear it from me first : evolution studios nextgen game for ps4, naughty dog, santa monica, guerillas killzone4 and a glimpse of Gran Turismo PS4 would destroy anything multiplatform developers would show this E3.


I'm not saying your wrong, you have some good points but there are other things to be considered which make the situation much less clear cut. We can't just assume this time that first party exclusives are going to look better than multiplatform games from big development houses using well established, highly supported DX11 3rd party engines.

Its not just about the engines, the engine is important but what is more important is game assets (textures, lighting, polygons, animations...), with least powerful engines you can produce a more graphically impressive game if your game assets are of higher quality.

Of course a better engine / more powerful hardware, allows you to use higher quality assets, but it is up to developers to decide how they want to implement their own assets. generally with multiplatform games, developers are forced to compromize, using the assets that suit best most platforms and not only one particular platform, which could result in overall less impressive graphics compared to exclusive games.

As I said previously, Gears was built on a multiplatform engine this generation and is touted by most as the best example of that generations early graphics. Microsoft paid for it to be 1st party but the engine itself could just as easily have been producing games like that for the PC or PS3 in the same period. Exclusivity there was a business decision, not a technical boon of working only to one specific architecture.

gears of war was an exclusive title for xbox360, it dosent matter if it is developed by the same multiplatform engine or not, as i said the fact that you develop exclusively for one console, you will tailor your game assets and ideas to the strength of that particular console.

(for example for xbox360 : higher rez transparencies, more complex vertex shaders (you can see real applications of all of this in Halo4), for PS3 : more complex pixel shaders, more complex physix and animations calculations, more complex lighting engine (you can see the evidence of all of this in Last of Us).
 
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gears of war was an exclusive title for xbox360, it dosent matter if it is developed by the same multiplatform engine or not, as i said the fact that you develop exclusively for one console, you will tailor your game assets and ideas to the strength of that particular console.

And yet UT3 on the PS3 had very similar assets / environments / effects to Gears of War on the 360.

Seems to me the impressivness of both of those games back in the day came not from the ability of either to programme to one specific architecture but rather from the quality of the engine, the artists and the budget epic was willing to dedicate to it.
 
And yet UT3 on the PS3 had very similar assets / environments / effects to Gears of War on the 360.

Seems to me the impressivness of both of those games back in the day came not from the ability of either to programme to one specific architecture but rather from the quality of the engine, the artists and the budget epic was willing to dedicate to it.

UE3 for ps3 wasent at all ready when gears of war was released for xbox360. Gears of war 3 uses a lot of high rez transparencies and a lot of complex vertex shaders, I doubt the same game could run on ps3 without compromizes.

I bet if sony got gears of war exclusivity, we would see a lot of different graphical choices than how the xbox360 version turned out to be (more complex pixel shaders, less complex vertex shaders). With the same engine you could create different kind of graphics.

I remember digital foundry did a good comparison between ninja gaiden 2 360 and ps3 (same game, same multiplatform engine, but with a lot of graphical differences in assets), also between bayonetta 360 and ps3 (bad port because the game assets dosent tailor to ps3 hardware, too much transparencies and enemies on screen to handle for ps3).
 
so at least we do agree that in the past a lot of console games launch titles or second generation titles had an advantage graphically over PC games.
Yes, that's what I've been saying.

But we disagree if yes or no this historical pattern would continue in the future for nextgen consoles (ps4/xboxnext).

Wait and see who would be right in his predictions ! just remember that you hear it from me first : evolution studios nextgen game for ps4, naughty dog, santa monica, guerillas killzone4 and a glimpse of Gran Turismo PS4 would destroy anything multiplatform developers would show this E3.
How are you going to measure that? ND release a next-gen LoU/UC type game, that'll look amazing. How do you qualify that it is 'destroying' UE4 space shooter on PC running at 2x the resolution, 2x the framerate, and bettter IQ? Or an open-space Assassin's Creed? Or Battlefield 4? I can well believe that, as always happens, there'll be a wave of enthusiasm for first-party titles on Sony's console that 'blow the competition out of the water', but such sentiments are going to be so subjective and dominated by art and style and non-technical features that the comparisons will be ludicrous ("This on-rails shooter looks a million times better than that open-world survival game. This photoreaslitic racer looks a million times better than that highly stylised but technically more demanding racer").

Look at this list of best graphics nominees from E3 2012: http://www.nowgamer.com/features/1416295/e3_2012_best_graphics_of_the_show.html

Nine out of eleven titles are cross platform. When next gen launches, the cross platform games will be numerous and running in superior quality on PC, the same as if PS360 launched with Crysis, or Gears had launched on PC alongside XB360 - same games only far better on PC where the hardware can be much more expensive and powerful.

Its not just about the engines, the engine is important but what is more important is game assets (textures, lighting, polygons, animations...), with least powerful engines you can produce a more graphically impressive game if your game assets are of higher quality.
You're changing your tune here. You said that Crysis beat everything that PS360 could achieve, so much so that current consoles wouldn't compete in their whole lifetime and gamers were bitterly disappointed. Now you're saying that it isn't about power but the art form as a whole, and a lower spec'd machine can produce better looking games. If the art and overall game can be a superior experience (which I agree with), then what's the argument with Crysis blowing away everything on consoles? Or, if Crysis was that good, how come every cross-platform game that'll run significantly better on PC in the same way Crysis on PC runs better than on console won't be dominating next-gen as you claim Crysis did this?

Of course a better engine / more powerful hardware, allows you to use higher quality assets, but it is up to developers to decide how they want to implement their own assets. generally with multiplatform games, developers are forced to compromize, using the assets that suit best most platforms and not only one particular platform, which could result in overall less impressive graphics compared to exclusive games.
The spec for PC games next gen will be console quality. They'll use the same assets, only PC will run those same assets at higher resolution and framerate. It'll be exactly the same as UE3 games now. PS360 cannot outperform a PC because at the very least, the PC game is running the same assets in higher quality. More usually the PC is adding layers of complexity in lighting, physics, number of objects, etc. Scalable engines may not be fabulously efficient, but they do enable better hardware to produce better results.

gears of war was an exclusive title for xbox360, it dosent matter if it is developed by the same multiplatform engine or not, as i said the fact that you develop exclusively for one console, you will tailor your game assets and ideas to the strength of that particular console.
Except the PC doesn't need tailoring because it's so much more powerful than XB360 that it could run the same game in better quality!
 
EPIC demo'd Unreal 3 on a 7800 GTX so they had code that would run on PS3 a long time before they had it running on unified shader based hardware.
What was a monster PC spec for when Gears launched on XB360? Any idea how that runs the game?
 
What was a monster PC spec for when Gears launched on XB360? Any idea how that runs the game?

7900GTX SLI or 7950GX2 Quad SLI with a Core 2 Extreme and 4Gb RAM.

If you search YouTube for the demos a single 7800 GTX blasts through Unreal Tournament and EPIC explain how much better the performance is on it over 6800 Ultra SLI.
 
What was a monster PC spec for when Gears launched on XB360? Any idea how that runs the game?

The 8800GTX launched at around the same time as Gears of War so you could claim that was the monster PC at the time (it would max the game out at 1080p with DX10 AA / 16x AF at >30fps if I recall rightly).

http://blog.libertech.net/blogs/lketchum/archive/2008/03/27/nvidia-geforce-8800-gtx-review.aspx

Given the HD2900 will average 43fps in DX9 at 1680x1050 I'm guessing more modest GPU's of the day like the 7900GT and X1900 Pro could probably have handled 720p @ >30fps with ease. But this is with the higher texture resolution of the PC version. I don't know if they improved anything else.
 
UE3 for ps3 wasent at all ready when gears of war was released for xbox360.
The comparison with PS3 is immaterial to the discussion of where the consoles stand regards PCs. Gears of War was a jaw-dropping, next-gen title, yet as my knowledgeable colleagues above inform us, a monster rig at that time (the sort that played Crysis in a way that made you so upset) would have played Gears much better if only the game had been cross-platform at launch. Which is how it's going to be next-gen. There might be some business shenanigans that see cross platform titles on UE or Cryengine or Frostbite withheld from the PC space while the consoles present a next-gen face, but that'll last a year at best. Consoles will then be thoroughly whipped into a corner by monster rigs. There'll still be no better choice than consoles for many regards economy, features, friend connections, and library, but the console's won't ever lead PCs in terms of visual output (unless one claims console monopoly on artistic creations and Bioshock or AC or LA Noire or whatever aren't as pretty as Uncharted or Halo or Quantic Dreams latest effort or whatever), especially when the consoles are just PCs regards their innards.
 
The 8800GTX launched at around the same time as Gears of War so you could claim that was the monster PC at the time (it would max the game out at 1080p with DX10 AA / 16x AF at >30fps if I recall rightly).

http://blog.libertech.net/blogs/lketchum/archive/2008/03/27/nvidia-geforce-8800-gtx-review.aspx

Given the HD2900 will average 43fps in DX9 at 1680x1050 I'm guessing more modest GPU's of the day like the 7900GT and X1900 Pro could probably have handled 720p @ >30fps with ease. But this is with the higher texture resolution of the PC version. I don't know if they improved anything else.

Well youre talking about 8800 GTX SLI being the fastest, not sure when Nvidia launched Tri-SLI in Vista.
 
I prefer to judge in terms of systems that mere mortals could afford ;)

Well in case then my first post of a 7900 GTX or 7950GX2 was the best as most mortals couldn't afford the ultra rare and expensive 8800 GTX.

It wasn't until the release of the 8800 GT that the 8000 series really became in reach of the mmortals ;)
 
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