The Next-gen Situation discussion *spawn

It was pretty much implied though. But it is disingenuous to consider that MS has anything like a monopoly in the gaming sphere. People seem to forget that it is only in North America that they have had overwhelming success. Everywhere else in the world they have performed fair to middling but still been overtaken by Sony.

I'm not sure if I read your post right, but Rangers did not imply in any way that MS has a monopoly in the console realm. He said that he can't believe MS would screw up the only thing they ever had any success in, other than the Windows monopoly, but worded it slightly confusingly. Perhaps he can clear that up, once his ban is lifted.

X360 has great success in UK too.
 
I don't know, how strong was the console business last year? Wasn't sales down each month year over year? The current gen peaked a couple of years ago?

Contrast that with the end of the generation when the PS2 reigned and it was on an upsurge when new consoles launched.

Consoles and mobile devices aren't direct competitors but the latter are eating up a huge amount of the discretionary income people are spending on electronics. That has to have an impact sooner or later.

And there's no reason to believe mobile devices will slow down soon, because the road map for mobile processors and other technologies still have a way to go.
 
I don't know, how strong was the console business last year? Wasn't sales down each month year over year? The current gen peaked a couple of years ago?

Contrast that with the end of the generation when the PS2 reigned and it was on an upsurge when new consoles launched.


Consoles and mobile devices aren't direct competitors but the latter are eating up a huge amount of the discretionary income people are spending on electronics. That has to have an impact sooner or later.

And there's no reason to believe mobile devices will slow down soon, because the road map for mobile processors and other technologies still have a way to go.

But this just proves my point.

Last gen was what 5-6 years before the Xbox 360 launched, beginning the current gen. Last gen hadn't had time to peak before MS jumped the gun.
This gen has been what 8 years? And the next-gen boxes have still not been officially annouced. So 6 years till the current gen peaked at the end of 2011 as you say (less than a couple of years in fact, just over a year). People are simply tired of what current gen has had to offer, and anticipating the announcment and release of next-gen systems.

It's got nothing to do with phones and tablets, and frankly I find the entire notion that the two are somehow related rather bizzarre.:???::?:

In the above bolded you say that tablet and mobiles gaming is eating up discretionary income, but I ask you how? Most people get mobile phones on contract and thus always have a monthly running contract charge for their mobile phone. This hasn't changed in the last 10 years. Also mobile app & game costs are mostly insignificant $0.99 purchases compared to the $60 people will spend on console video games. Many popular mobile games are also F2P, and speak to any mobile platform dev or publisher and they'll tell you that 90% of their revenue comes from a very small fraction of their userbase spending inordinate amounts. The latter even bodes well for consoles as it means that the majority of social and casual gamers on mobile are paying very little if anything for their games, thus have more discretionary income available for console games.

If you were referring to mobile and tablet HW, then I strongly disagree as even the most expensive mobile HW are one-time purchases that would be made at most once a year (and then only by the most rabid hardcore apple fanboys). Most tablet users will buy HW on average once every 2-3 years, and again phone users will usually get 12-24 month contracts. I see nothing that precludes these customers having available discretionary income for a monthly AAA console game (and the average console gamers makes gaming purchases at a much lower rate than that).

If you were refering to media content, then i would strongly challenge that idea, as it has again little to do with the surge in mobile platforms, and more to do with a shift in the way people consume such media content. E.g. prior to smartphones and tablets, people would watch movies in cinema, on TV networks like Sky and Cable, and on VHS/DVD media formats etc. Now people consume video content in cinema, on TV networks, on portable media formats and now online via streaming platforms, through digital download platforms on PC, tablet, settop box and smartphone devices. The balance of platforms has changed, but the total global dollars spent on media content would most likely be the same.

So in essence, mobile platforms are not even having a significant negative effect on consumer's discretionary income. Rather they have in most cases found a way to provide the majority of users a free lunch, whilst exploiting the small number of idiots willing to spend obscene amounts of money on microtransactions and in-app purchases.

The issue in totality is over-inflated.
 
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:cry:



Laa-Yosh, there is no one more qualified than you to do this.

Start a thread.

Post examples of diminishing returns: run some LOD on some models with various poly counts. Do the same for alpha, shadow resolution, AA, resolution, etc to demonstrate this principle.

Do this and you may snatch away ERP's #1 poster award.
That would be great though I think that he could be a busy man ;)

Nebula iirc made some really nice comparison of games (far cry2?) at various resolutions, with/without AA etc.
Was pretty interesting. Now that we have things as motion blur, DoF, etc. in action I would say it might be even less clear cut as it was back in time, hence Laa-yosh comment.

I think Tim Sweeney got it right, what people notice the most are artifacts, it jumps literally to your eyes. Getting rid of those pesky artifacts should trump resolution increase anytimes. Add to this the fact that scalers seem to do quiet a good job of "clean" pictures.
 
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The bolded actually isn't true at all. Perhaps at the beginning of a generation it is. But look at games like Crysis 2, Battlefield 3, and pretty much most AAA multi-platform games this generation.
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If you look at what I wrote, I conceded that you will not be able to take full advantage of hardware if you work on cross compatible hardware. Where we disagree is that I don't think writing to the metal is that beneficial financially. A lot of work to squeeze every once of a machine for a little extra visual gain. If the Xbox 3 in 2013 has 1.2 TFLOPS and the Xbox 4 in 2016 has 2 TFLOPS, games for Xbox 4 will be much better graphically just by brute force.

Also, people keep comparing cross-compatible consoles to PC. PC is the wild west. Apple is the real model to compare with--the iMac, Macbook, and iPad. One vertically integrated company that tightly controls the hardware.

The reason this console generation has been so long is because starting a new generation without cross compatibility puts everyone in a dangerous place. Every new generation = zero users. Vita and Wii U had low early aggregate software sales on release. There's usually 1-2 hits and everyone else fights for scraps. The 2013 games for Xbox 3/PS4 will have an audience of only 2-3 million users at most. Isn't that a huge problem? Contrast with the iPad that has a growing user base each new iPad.

Remember, companies really never need to upgrade hardware very fast. The reason they do so is psychological. Every new iPhone creates hype and iPhone 3 users buy an iPhone 5 not because they really need it, but because they feel they are too far behind even at 3 years. The trick with companies is to release hardware at a pace that creates desirability to stay ahead while avoiding obsoleting hardware too fast to annoy people. It is a psychological balance.
 
If you look at what I wrote, I conceded that you will not be able to take full advantage of hardware if you work on cross compatible hardware. Where we disagree is that I don't think writing to the metal is that beneficial financially. A lot of work to squeeze every once of a machine for a little extra visual gain. If the Xbox 3 in 2013 has 1.2 TFLOPS and the Xbox 4 in 2016 has 2 TFLOPS, games for Xbox 4 will be much better graphically just by brute force.

Also, people keep comparing cross-compatible consoles to PC. PC is the wild west. Apple is the real model to compare with--the iMac, Macbook, and iPad. One vertically integrated company that tightly controls the hardware.

The reason this console generation has been so long is because starting a new generation without cross compatibility puts everyone in a dangerous place. Every new generation = zero users. Vita and Wii U had low early aggregate software sales on release. There's usually 1-2 hits and everyone else fights for scraps. The 2013 games for Xbox 3/PS4 will have an audience of only 2-3 million users at most. Isn't that a huge problem? Contrast with the iPad that has a growing user base each new iPad.

Remember, companies really never need to upgrade hardware very fast. The reason they do so is psychological. Every new iPhone creates hype and iPhone 3 users buy an iPhone 5 not because they really need it, but because they feel they are too far behind even at 3 years. The trick with companies is to release hardware at a pace that creates desirability to stay ahead while avoiding obsoleting hardware too fast to annoy people. It is a psychological balance.

Eh... more like launching a console so soon after a recession is financial suicide. I mean, assuming consoles were going to launch back in 2011, real dev work would have started in earnest in 2008, right smack dab in the middle of the economic free-for-all in the US. And just because the recession officially ended in 2009 doesn't mean that people were going to go spending money willy nilly on $400 consoles with no games.
 
Resolution does eventually reach the point of diminishing returns. The fact that phones aren't there yet doesn't prove it doesn't exist.

I specifically formulated the metric in terms of moving images. Since moving images on a screen are sequences of static images, you just have to add up the errors and normalize them. And of course frame rate is another place where really, doubling your pixel consumption to go from 30 to 60 is not nearly the jump in quality you get by going from 15 to 30. And going from 60 to 120 is just a waste when there are so many other things you could do with that fill rate.

Forza 4 doesn't.

Photos are the easiest to conceptualize, but it should be pretty obvious that with other types of games, you'd need some way to compare it to the ideal. Like with a cartoon-style game, compare it to a high-resolution hand-animated sequence of the same thing.

2D Platformers with cartoon-style graphics look pretty similar on the PS2 and the 360. They both display millions of colors, they both can run them at 60 fps, they both have no real limits on how many sprites can appear on screen, and they both are capable of doing just about any sprite effect the developer can imagine. The only real difference is screen resolution. The jump from the NES to the SNES was much larger. In that genre, returns began diminishing rapidly two generations ago with the PS1.

To compare "returns," you have to keep all else fixed. Let's say we scale our metric from 0 to 100, where 0 is "impossible" and 100 is "perfect." I'll make up numbers, but I imagine that this is what they'd look like for a variety of genres:

Genre / Atari / NES/ SNES/ PS1 / PS2 / Xbox 360
Cartoon platformer / 10 / 50 / 75 / 85 / 99 / 99.99
3D racing / 5 / 8 / 15 / 50 / 75 / 90
2D fighting / 5 / 25 / 60 / 80 / 99 / 99.99
3D fighting / 0 / 0 / 0 / 50 / 70 / 90 /
3D sandbox / 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 45 / 65
3D Rail shooter / 0 / 5 / 25 / 50 / 85 / 90
Corridor FPS / 0 / 0 / 8 / 35 / 60 / 85
3D open-world RPG / 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 35 / 60

In game types I've scored below 80, I expect huge leaps next-gen, comparable to huge leaps we've seen before, e.g., I expect the difference between current-gen Elder Scrolls games and next-gen to be every bit as big as the leap from Morrowind to Skyrim. But I do not expect 2D platformers to be observably different, and I don't expect the jump from current-gen Forza to next-gen Forza to be nearly so large as the jump from last-gen to this-gen, which was IMO smaller than the jump from GT2 to GT4.


I think they've already appeared in pretty much every type of 2D game, and have already started to appear in a select few genres of 3D games. Every game type is on a different curve---one thing that happens as hardware improves is that we see all-new game types. But this is the first generation where we really haven't seen new types of games enabled by the hardware. That in itself is a form of diminishing returns.


I bumped this threaf just for this fearsomepirate :p Although I considered just sending a PM, I thought it could be good discussion. Although I'm not sure what this thread really is about...

anyways I recalled you listed driving games as a genre that 360 had 90% maxed...can you really say that after seeing Forza 5?


GT6


I think even at a glance even a most casual viewer could see a noticeable difference. Certainly well more than 10%. And these videos are both 720P, so we're not even seeing the impact of the 720P>1080P jump here (assuming GTX isn't 1280X1080 or whatever GT5 was).
 
Makes you wonder what a leap from 1.2Tflops to 10Tflops would give you.. focus on physics?

I wish the GT6 video were a cockpit video so we'd get an apples to apples comparison.
 
I bumped this threaf just for this fearsomepirate :p Although I considered just sending a PM, I thought it could be good discussion. Although I'm not sure what this thread really is about...
It's about the long-term future of consoles

anyways I recalled you listed driving games as a genre that 360 had 90% maxed...can you really say that after seeing Forza 5?
They were only illustrative numbers showing diminishing returns. As there's no specified measure, it's not possible to determine of Forza is literally 10% better than GT6 or not. Heck, it's not even clear if the measure is linear or not (probably not when compressing the range from chunky, abstract pixels to photorealism). The important point is that Forza 5 is near photorealism, no? Meaning next-gen pushes the scale towards 95-96% for racers. The gen after that would be 100% - diminishing returns.
 
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