The importance of UMD to PSP and its future *spinoff

[Blazkowicz]

Too bad your internet skills failed you with regards to this statement;

I'm seeing an awful lot of non-Sony Minidisc recorders and players

I should have made clear that was a hyperbole. I only knew about sharp, JVC, samsung ; so rather than a short handful vendors, there were 4x that amount - this still is totally dwarfed by CD, cassette and DVD formats.
Virtually no vendors from US, Europe, China, taïwan, thailand etc. whereas the audio cassette it competed with had players made everywhere, even in Soviet Union .

 

[Blazkowicz]

Why not a 1.8" hard drive?
you may have two models, one with 16GB flash and another one with a 120GB hard drive. with a single component providing as much storage as 80 full UMD disks, problem solved.

 

[darkblu]

Also for Darkblu, I guess I wasnt clear again. Regarding me using an unnamed dev, I'm implying you saying I'm wrong isn't really evidence of a HAL on the GPU, no more than me using my dev friend who asked not to be involved in this. You made the claim HAL is present, back it up.

I'd like to see some evidence. You telling me libgu is the sequel to another lib is not proof. It being a wrapper is not proof, it is proof it's not a HAL.

About your comment on sending NDA protecting info via PM, that option is available to you.

See, Neo, you missed a few opportunities in the course of this thread. First one was when you heard me saying HAL and you asked your friend about it, to which they reportedly laughed. Instead of taking that for an answer (is you friend's name Iwata, btw?), you should've asked them what they used for creating and managing their GE display lists in their commercial titles (assuming they have such). That would have already shed some light for you.

Second missed opportunity is you actually not reading my posts carefully enough (go re-read what i said about libgu, it's not a sequel to anything).

Third one was when you said that even if you knew what your were talking about re ME, you'd still not bother send a simple proof of your understanding to me (apparently you'd rather pull irrelevant homebrew lore from around the internet). Way to make me willing to share anything with you.

And now you want me to back up something which i would not need back up in the first place, if the other party was in the loop. I'm not sure how i feel about it right now. I could, however, share with you that a HAL is not what you think it is - something that is mandatory by definition. Some HAL implementations could be mandatory just as well, but that's not part of the definition of what HAL is. HAL is a software layer over some metal, which layer allows the next sw layer after it to not deal with the full extent of the metal's programming model. as such HAL is normally used to hide reasonable differences (ie. ones not entirely breaking the programming model) in variations of the metal. libgu (and a few other libs in the sdk) is not strictly HAL when looked at in isolation on the psp (not because of what you claim but just because there are no different implementations of the GE whose peculiarities would need to be hidden), but libgu would effectively serve as a HAL when one looks at the psp and its successor, given the latter needed to have BC. Simply because the common psp title does not need to talk right to the metal, instead its talks to those libs. Mind you, my first post mentioning HAL was in the context of why the psp successor would not need to host the original GE silicon, which you thought it would instead.

 

[Lazy8s]

An SGX543MP that's comparable in size in 45/40nm or smaller geometries to the PSP's GPU and is as relatively aggressive with its clock rate could emulate the PSP's GPU in its sleep.

 

[NeoTechni]

I rather hope that the PSP2 has PS2 emulation.

In all likelihood, it won't.

-I've been saying they won't be able to make PSP2 even emulate PSP1, (at least not for another 5-10 years) cause PSP is so powerful as it is, you'd need something like 10 times as powerful to run it. PS2 is more powerful than PSP in some ways, like the bus between the VRAM and the system RAM. It's so wide/fast cause PS2 has transfinite energy, PSP uses a smaller bus cause it's battery powered.

-PS3 doesnt even have a finished PS2 emulator. And even the partial one (the one that emulates the Emotion Engine) is buggy. It would only be buggier on a portable with less power available to it. There's a reason Sony uses actual PS2 hardware to play PS2 games, it's a very complex system. Even PS3 has problems with PS2's massive RAM-VRAM bus (PS3's bus is actually smaller than PS2's. Though Sony could probably solve that by caching an entire copy of PS2's RAM in PS3's VRAM negating the need for the bus for the most part).

In this case it could very easily be the UMD player as a standard component. It drives up the cost for the 2nd and 3rd group of people whilst shortening battery life for everyone when its used

-The cost is obviously insignificant.

-It wouldnt shorten the battery life of people that dont use it

The best UMD haters can hope for is 2 separate versions of PSP2, one with UMD one without. As it stands, Sony NEEDS UMD. PSP2 simply cant survive without it. Whether you agree with the need for BC or not, it's still needed. 75% of the world doesn't have broadband. Less than half of PSPs users are even online. Some retailers have boycotted the Go because it doesn't use discs, that will only get worse without a disc-using SKU. Then there are the people not smart enough to know how to operate online functionality (the people whose clocks flash 12:00, and you know they are out there) the people without credit cards and would be forced to walk to the store anyway to buy vouchers if they are even available in their country

UMD wont go away cause a minority wants it to, at the expense of those who cant use the alternative. Sony is a business, and that would mean excluding people they currently sell to. Be more considerate.

Consoles aren't designed to be catering to the needs of 5-10% of game concepts which might use one feature or another.

That points to needing UMD, given how Go is selling so absolutely horribly. DD-only wanters are obviously in the minority. Hell, Sony said in a magazine that they ran a survey and only 25% said they were interested in downloading games. An NPD and GameSpot poll had roughly the same numbers. Most gamers want a physical disc.

First one was when you heard me saying HAL and you asked your friend about it,

I didn't ask. He read the thread and came to me.

(go re-read what i said about libgu, it's not a sequel to anything)

That was an exaggeration, like you said about me talking to daddy.
I didn't mean it literally. I meant what you said about libgu when I asked, still proved nothing.

Third one was when you said that even if you knew what your were talking about re ME, you'd still not bother send a simple proof of your understanding to me (apparently you'd rather pull irrelevant homebrew lore from around the internet).

And yet, you've given me nothing. Yet expect me to give you anything.

And now you want me to back up something which i would not need back up in the first place

You need to back up your claims, or not make them.
Regardless of any of my friends who disagree with you, you made a claim you haven't proven. And I'm more than willing to (and happy to) read through anything you've got.
But it's just your claims against a friend of mine who I trust. I don't know you.

Instead you'd rather throw insults and say that proves your point.
I've yet to insult you by the way.

. I'm not sure how i feel about it right now. I could, however, share with you that a HAL is not what you think it is - something that is mandatory by definition

In which case, the PSPs GPU having HAL would be irrelevant. If it's not mandatory, then you can't tell me every game uses it. And thus, it can't be used for emulation instead of the GPU. You've defeated your own point.

If any wrapper counts as HAL, then every piece of hardware has HAL. Every smart dev makes or use wrappers so they dont have to reinvent the wheel everytime. Hell I've made Windows programs that use wrappers just to use Windows Media Player, so I can swap out any other media player if the need arises (and has, so that was pretty convenient) My small card game for PSP that used custom soundtracks, I wrote wrappers for both the MP3 player and PNG drawing code.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

75% of the world doesn't have broadband.

75% of the world doesn't have access to PSPs, and couldn't afford it even if they had. Plus why does losing the UMD require going DD only? As plenty have suggested, Sony can go the Nintendo route and use carts of some form. Job done, serving both conventional buyers and the DD future.

Most gamers want a physical disc.

Poor DS owners don't have that option. No wonder it sells so badly.

 

[eastmen]

I'm not sure why there is an arguement.

Flash has advantages.

1) Speed . Memry stick pro duo is capable of 15MB/s. Umd trasnfers at 11mbps or 1.375 MB/s

2) Size. While UMD had the intial size advantage of 1.8gigs for dirt cheap , flash has continue to grow and now you can get 16 gigs for $40 bucks. Which is why we see the psp go hit the scene.

3) Durability . Not only is the flash much more durable than a spining disc , but the slot for the memory stick is more durable than the drive for the umd. You have the actual door to insert the disc which can easily break or jam , but then you have the optical eye that can get dislodged easily in a handheld system.

4) Power drain. Flash uses much less power than a spinning disc.



Umd seems to have 2 advantages

1) Cost. Its much less money to make a umd

2) Size at launch. While 2 gig cards were avaible they were very expensive. Umds offered 1.8gigs at very low prices.



I don't see an arguement moving into the future for the continued existance of umd. Even if they move to a bluray mini type device its not worth it.

On a hand held downloadable games will be much more popular why carry a bunch of discs when you can carry them all with you on a few memory sticks that in a case might take up the space of 1 umd.

 

[sunscar]

What precisely are we all bitching about here?

Seems the list goes...

1.) UMD is irrelevant.

2.) ME is a multi-purpose processor.

3.) There is no HAL.

4.) Memory Stick isn't an option.

5.) PSP2 will require UMD because SONY demands backwards compatibility.

6.) Nothing can emulate the godlike power of the PSP!!! Atleast in mobile form.

7.) Without UMD, backwards compatibility won't work...

For starters, UMD is irrelevant. It serves no real purpose anymore. Memory stick can store many times more, for prices similar enough. Games rarely even take up the entire disk. And if they did, would it still matter? Some 360 titles are smaller on disk, and still look superior to their Xbox brethren.

Virtually any processor can be tricked to do a job it is not specifically architected for, ME is no different. ME was designed to be a media engine, hence the name. Does that bar me from writing a calculator program for it? No. Does that bar me from writing a shitty little renderer for it? No. Does the SDK specifically state it to be usable for those myriad purposes? Not IIRC.

Darkblu's been trying to explain, if there's a software layer that you write to, that then commands the hardware, that *IS* the very definition of a HAL. So by definition there is a HAL present. There's no argument, there! For eph's sake!

Memory stick is a fine option. It's relatively cheap, capacious, has fast transfer, and can be pretty damned secure. Sounds like it hits just about all the requirements.

Backwards compatibility... SONY has de-prioritized backwards compatibility so far it's not even worth mentioning, and it hasn't really damaged them that badly, if at all. Hell, MS borderline dropped it, mid-sentence, and they're by all accounts fine for it. So no real need for UMD here either.

Sorry, also not true. We have mobile GPUs that here soon will make the PSP's performance look quaint by comparison. The GPU part inside Tegra 2, trounces the hell out of it, and it's basically a matter of writing a wrapper for the programs to live inside. There are mobile CPUs a dozen times more powerful than the one inside the PSP, ZMS-08 for example, and again you could probably write a wrapper for the games as they are. Shit we could feasibly build a handheld today that beats the original Xbox to hell and back, let alone a PSP.

And maybe it won't - Not everyone in the world has a fast connection to the web to obtain those somewhat large files, but it's not killing MS and SONY's current home consoles, and I really don't think SONY views backwards compatibility as a major priority anymore. Their actions certainly don't seem to indicate so - Quite the contrary, they view it as a way for consumers to avoid buying new titles, which screws them painfully.

 

[Squilliam]

In all likelihood, it won't.

-The cost is obviously insignificant.

-It wouldnt shorten the battery life of people that dont use it

Its money not spent on a larger screen, better battery and its space which cannot be allocated to that purpose.

The best UMD haters can hope for is 2 separate versions of PSP2, one with UMD one without. As it stands, Sony NEEDS UMD. PSP2 simply cant survive without it. Whether you agree with the need for BC or not, it's still needed. 75% of the world doesn't have broadband. Less than half of PSPs users are even online. Some retailers have boycotted the Go because it doesn't use discs, that will only get worse without a disc-using SKU. Then there are the people not smart enough to know how to operate online functionality (the people whose clocks flash 12:00, and you know they are out there) the people without credit cards and would be forced to walk to the store anyway to buy vouchers if they are even available in their country

66% of PS3s are connected to the internet and the majority of the downloadable titles are within the range of 0.5-1.5GB. Obviously people who only have 56k haven't connected their PS3s.

Given the incredibly poor sales of discs I could say that roughly 66% of PSP owners probably never used the optical drive. Either due to piracy or simply using it as a portable media player. The worldwide attach rate for software on the PSP is 2.58 after almost 6 years on the market. Thats an average of 0.5 games sold per PSP per year.

Retailers haven't boycotted the DS and that doesn't use discs, its also sold a hell of a lot more software per unit than the PSP at an attach rate of 4.0 over a shorter period of time.

UMD wont go away cause a minority wants it to, at the expense of those who cant use the alternative. Sony is a business, and that would mean excluding people they currently sell to. Be more considerate.

Only a minority use UMD, the majority don't want it.

That points to needing UMD, given how Go is selling so absolutely horribly. DD-only wanters are obviously in the minority. Hell, Sony said in a magazine that they ran a survey and only 25% said they were interested in downloading games. An NPD and GameSpot poll had roughly the same numbers. Most gamers want a physical disc.

Those 25% probably make up at least half of the numbers of the people who even buy games for the PSP. Most people don't even buy games for the PSP and the UMD is a game format. Why would they need to include it in what is essentially a portable media player which can also play games?

 

[eastmen]

They can go with free 3g connections or even 4g connections (sprint has it) for the psp2 and limit it to downloading games only.

They can then charge monthly for 3g/4g for wireless gaming or allow it through wireless network connections.

I'm not sure how large people are expecting mobile games to grow. Perhaps to xbox 360 game sizes ? Which would be 6.8 gigs or less. I'm betting on less because content costs money and devs can't sell a psp2 game at $60 bucks like they can an xbox 360 game.

 

[Lazy8s]

People who compare the graphics of the PSP to phones and believe that PSP technology is "still" relatively powerful make the mistake of assuming the sizes and power consumption are at all similar between the GPUs of the those different classes of device.

The top mobile GPU architectures of the PSP's time were more effective and would've scaled to much greater performance if budgeted to a comparable cost to the PSP's GPU. So, a modern mobile graphics architecture like Series5XT would yield a core so much more powerful when scaled to that kind of silicon budget and power consumption envelope.

 

[RudeCurve]

When you play a MP3 on the PSP and have the visualization on, which processors are being used?

 

[NeoTechni]

75% of the world doesn't have access to PSPs,

Except Sony sells PSP to areas without broadband.
Sony doesnt want to stop selling them to people.
Movies and music still come on physical mediums for that reason, that and lots of people prefer physical mediums.

[/B]Plus why does losing the UMD require going DD only? As plenty have suggested, Sony can go the Nintendo route and use carts of some form.

No they can't. The whole point of UMD was to not use carts of any form.

I don't see an arguement moving into the future for the continued existance of umd. Even if they move to a bluray mini type device its not worth it.

Eh? I made multiple claims as to why it's needed. The retailer boycotts of the Go alone should tell you that.

For starters, UMD is irrelevant. It serves no real purpose anymore. Memory stick can store many times more, for prices similar enough.

Memory stick prices are not similar enough to UMD.
UMD serves a huge purpose, selling to areas without broadband, those who dont want to invest in large enough memorysticks to hold their library or deal with swapping, those who prefer physical mediums (and the extra rights that entails)

Darkblu's been trying to explain, if there's a software layer that you write to, that then commands the hardware, that *IS* the very definition of a HAL. So by definition there is a HAL present. There's no argument, there! For eph's sake!

-Except he's made claims with no proof.
-If the 'HAL' isnt mandatory, then you cant just emulate the HAL and expect all the games to work. Which is why he brought up HAL.
-By his definition, every piece of hardware ever made has HAL.

Memory stick is a fine option. It's relatively cheap

I've never heard memorystick described as cheap.

and it's basically a matter of writing a wrapper for the programs to live inside

Except from what I've been told, you really have really low level access the hardware on PSP. And not a HAL.

There are mobile CPUs a dozen times more powerful than the one inside the PSP

My UMPC is dozens of times more powerful than N64, that doesn't mean it's good at emulating it. Hell, the same dev who told me PSPs GPU has no HAL loves this example when I say my UMPC is better than a Pandora. My UMPC also cost $900. No one will buy a PSP2 at that price.

Its money not spent on a larger screen, better battery and its space which cannot be allocated to that purpose.

You guys do know the Go, which has no UMD, has a smaller screen, and less battery space/life right?

66% of PS3s are connected to the internet

I agree. Now here's how that supports me

-1/3 of the userbase is not connected to the internet.
-The number of people not connected to the internet on a handheld with far less internet functionality will be even greater.
-Businesses do not abandon percentages of their userbase that high

Given the incredibly poor sales of discs I could say that roughly 66% of PSP owners probably never used the optical drive

That'd be false.

The worldwide attach rate for software on the PSP is 2.58 after almost 6 years on the market

That alone proves your claim was false.

Retailers haven't boycotted the DS and that doesn't use discs

Retailers haven't boycotted the DS cause it uses a physical medium of which they can make money off used game sales.
Retailers didn't boycott the Go specifically cause it didnt use discs, but because it didnt use a physical medium of which they can make money off used game sales.

Only a minority use UMD, the majority don't want it.

Sony says otherwise. Their own survey said the majority (75%) do want it
Only a minority use downloads, the majority don't want it.

Those 25% probably make up at least half of the numbers of the people who even buy games for the PSP.

No, that'd be false. You seem to like joke statistics.

Most people don't even buy games for the PSP

So you're saying PSP2 shouldnt even play games?

They can go with free 3g connections or even 4g connections (sprint has it) for the psp2 and limit it to downloading games only.

For games larger than 2 gigabytes?!?!?
Amazon's kindle has free 3G, and downloads are limited to less than a megabyte a month! That wouldn't even cover the music/video/backgrounds Sony puts in eboots!!!

People who compare the graphics of the PSP to phones and believe that PSP technology is "still" relatively powerful make the mistake of assuming the sizes and power consumption are at all similar between the GPUs of the those different classes of device

I've yet to see an iphone game look better than some of my best looking PSP games though

 

[function]

No they can't. The whole point of UMD was to not use carts of any form.

Running a game from a memory stick isn't a million miles from using a cart or card (variable access times apart). You could get value for money from a PSP without ever bringing a UMD within a mile of it.

Eh? I made multiple claims as to why it's needed. The retailer boycotts of the Go alone should tell you that.

As Shifty Geezer already said "why does losing the UMD require going DD only?"

UMD serves a huge purpose, selling to areas without broadband, those who dont want to invest in large enough memorysticks to hold their library or deal with swapping, those who prefer physical mediums (and the extra rights that entails)

Nintendo do all of the above without putting mechanical drives on their incredibly popular and profitable handhelds. Also, the iPhone has been incredibly popular while doing none of the above. Sony will be thinking very carefully about where they target the PSP2 to make the most money.

Looking at what has worked, and what hasn't, it's hard to see Sony believing that they need UMD going forwards. Media loading mechanical drives on small, portable devices are a thing of the past.

My UMPC is dozens of times more powerful than N64, that doesn't mean it's good at emulating it.

I doubt Nintendo built your UMPC with an N64 emulator in mind, or even that they tried particularly hard to get their N64 emulator running fast.

What is it that the PSP graphics chip does that couldn't map to a DX 9 shader? Could you ask your PSP dev friend? I be interested to know.

Hell, the same dev who told me PSPs GPU has no HAL loves this example when I say my UMPC is better than a Pandora. My UMPC also cost $900. No one will buy a PSP2 at that price.

I'm getting a bit confused now. Why does the PSP2 need to cost $900?

You guys do know the Go, which has no UMD, has a smaller screen, and less battery space/life right?

So they should have put a UMD drive on there, to increase screen size and battery life for free?? Just because Sony went in a certain direction with the Go doesn't mean that UMD drives don't cost money, take up space and draw power.

I've yet to see an iphone game look better than some of my best looking PSP games though

That will have nothing to do with the GPU though.

 

[darkblu]

Virtually any processor can be tricked to do a job it is not specifically architected for, ME is no different. ME was designed to be a media engine, hence the name. Does that bar me from writing a calculator program for it? No. Does that bar me from writing a shitty little renderer for it? No. Does the SDK specifically state it to be usable for those myriad purposes? Not IIRC.

Actually, the sdk goes a bit firther than that ; )

1. It does not present the programming model of the ME processor - for the sdk it's just an AV-processing blackbox (how's that for not saying what it's useful for? ; )
2. It does not provide means for running threads on it (last time i checked homebrew does it through hacking into kernel mode). Which is only logical, given the unit is not exposed as programmable.
3. It does not provide tools for debugging code running on that processor. And given (2) and (3) - why would it? ; )

So you say you have a product to ship? Good luck doing that with no programming model, no established code deployment protocol and no debugging!

But this is just what the sdk does not do. And it's just a minor nuisance compared to the next obstacle.

As we all know (sans certain hyperactive posters), there's one other aspect of the whole process called releasing commercial games, and it's passing the console vendor's TRC. Hacking your way into the ME would be a really spectacular way for a licensed developer to fail their TRC. I would really, really love to hear the success story of some psp dev who actually tried that : )

 

[Shifty Geezer]

No they can't. The whole point of UMD was to not use carts of any form.

Nonsense. You really think Sony execs sat around the board room saying, "C'mon guys! No matter what, we have to find some media other than those damned little carts"?

Sony had a need for a distribution method for their portable media and games device. They weighed up the pros and cons of different formats. They wanted 2GBs or thereabouts for their intended movie format, which would have meant very expensive carts of some form. There was also an issue of piracy which carts were open to. Hence they developed a new optical format.

For their next platform, they will consider the options once again. There will be cost, impact on the portable's key performance, scalability and versatility considerations, etc. They'll then pick the right media they feel for the job. They certainly aren't going to flatly refuse carts. Again, which you've conveniently ignored, Nintendo make a killing on carts. Carts aren't a dead format, and no-one but yourself would dismiss them out of hand without a proper consideration of costs and benefits for the different formats.

 

[Mobius1aic]

Nonsense. You really think Sony execs sat around the board room saying, "C'mon guys! No matter what, we have to find some media other than those damned little carts"?

Sony had a need for a distribution method for their portable media and games device. They weighed up the pros and cons of different formats. They wanted 2GBs or thereabouts for their intended movie format, which would have meant very expensive carts of some form. There was also an issue of piracy which carts were open to. Hence they developed a new optical format.

For their next platform, they will consider the options once again. There will be cost, impact on the portable's key performance, scalability and versatility considerations, etc. They'll then pick the right media they feel for the job. They certainly aren't going to flatly refuse carts. Again, which you've conveniently ignored, Nintendo make a killing on carts. Carts aren't a dead format, and no-one but yourself would dismiss them out of hand without a proper consideration of costs and benefits for the different formats.

It would be interesting to see the average amount of space a PSP game takes up on a UMD.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Several hundred MBs AFAIK. Next-gen, 2 to 4 GBs will be plenty for most cases I reckon. You could even start off with a cheaper 2GB cartupper limit and then allow for larger carts once prices have dropped, if they start to high, like the old Megabit cartridges of yore.

 

[eastmen]

Several hundred MBs AFAIK. Next-gen, 2 to 4 GBs will be plenty for most cases I reckon. You could even start off with a cheaper 2GB cartupper limit and then allow for larger carts once prices have dropped, if they start to high, like the old Megabit cartridges of yore.

Why even go with a cart.

Just install 64 ggs of flash into the system and just download games. Even those who don't have broad badn. Just go into a gamestop or a toys r us and go by a ps3 kiosk or psp 2 kiosk and download the game and have it charged to your credit card or if you don't have a credit card buy a game code from the store and input it.

How do the stores make money ? Give them a bit of each transaction.

 

[MfA]

Oh it's certainly possible, but is it worth it to try to force an unfamiliar distribution model on your customers to save 2$ worth of flash? Whether you sell on carts in stores or not is irrelevant to whether you offer DDL versions as well.