The console losses discussion thread (or 'how companies blow billions on products')*

That is exactly my situation. I have 2 PS3s and 0 games. I use them to play movies and would of gladly would of purchased a standalone player instead but did not because of the terrible quality of stand alone blu players.

This is exactly where some of those $3.1b losses go. Building up Blu-ray expertise way ahead of competitors. BD-Live is still only doable on PS3 right now. Really the money should be seen as investment, not write-off.

By the time other players achieve BD-Live parity, PS3 may already have optimized and well-tested BD-Live applications like Portable Copy, NetBlender iPhone integration, etc. The large number of PS3 players also pretty much guarantee that advanced Blu-ray titles will play well on them.
 
I'd rather discuss the other $2B in losses that Sony incurred, what choices and components were responsible and if they were good decisions.

I said it earlier, and I'll say it again. I think the BD was a good idea. I think they made other poor decisions that resulted in the other $2B loss, one of which was launching earlier than they wanted to in an attempt to counter the 360.

Well I don't think it's that one thing cost too much and another didn't... it's just more along the lines of, here's a console that was to be sold for x amount of money, and for all that was tossed in, it ended up costing y amount more to produce.

In the larger scheme of things I think there are a couple of classes of components inside the PS3:

1) Components that were outright wholly optional (B/C, Wi-Fi)

2) Components that were necessary, but may have been priced at a certain premium to available alternatives (Cell, PSU, MoBo)

3) Components that served an ancillary market/function (Blu-ray)

Now remember that Sony expected PS3 to be lossy anyway upon launch, so on top of whatever initial price target they had in mind, they were willing to spend more than that on components.

Let's say they would have liked to launch at $450, and would have willingly absorbed $100 loss/console at launch, for a burn rate of $1 billion/10M on PS3 install base.

With that (arbitrary/fictional) $550 budget to work with, I can understand where ~$5 Wi-Fi and ~$5 Bluetooth get included as minimal costs that are thought to positively impact the user experience. So I have a hard time criticizing decisions like that.

Now on Cell, Cell is sort of the heart of the initial PS3 design effort. It's almost impossible to quantify that cost as manageable, because it was so integral to the development of the system... even pre-dating the larger system R&D itself. So, whatever the costs associated with Cell, I'd almost consider them a fixed cost rather than a variable we can actually play with. And in terms of investment, the architecture should pay forward dividends as it gets leveraged into the next console.

So Cell chips vs some 'control' Intel chip... may have cost more on a chip-for-chip basis, but whatever that cost is we're just going to have to toss it in wholesale towards that $550 as a non-variable expense, along with the XDR RAM that it works with.

Decisions that were more fluid but still material expense generators included the decision to use a high quality motherboard and an internal (and internally developed) PFC power supply. Not to mention the massive cooling solution that resulted from the internalizing of all of this.

But it's hard to separate the stuff out in a piecemeal fashion, because the truth is that since they were going to use PS3 for BD penetration - and just probably out of their own pride in project development to begin with - a quiet and internalized solution was always a must. The discussion of PS3 vs standalones is one thing, but the idea of PS3's appeal as a player in its own right is completely another, and the console would not have had the AV-centric uptake that it had were it with an external PSU and louder than it was (already too loud for some).

And because it was using new-tech optical drives and IC's like Cell (which is finicky on power delivery), the use of the motherboard and the high-quality PSU were almost further required rather than a true option. Each design decision had a cascading effect on what would be acceptable for other design decisions.

And so then we reach a point where it's either all or nothing; do they launch PS3 as a system that is forced to use the most expensive across a broad range of components to achieve its goals, or do they go cheaper and in so doing scale back the scope and ambitions across the board?

Well, they went for the former, and due to constraints elsewhere in the chain (software development, infrastructure) weren't able to capitalize immediately on even those factors that they initially paid out for so handsomely. For instance, movie store *this* summer instead of the summer of '07.

Anyway... I think the thing with BD is that at any given stage, its exclusion would have lopped off some significant factor in loss. I estimated it at $2 billion, but maybe I was wrong to do so, since there's a number of ways one could look at it. For instance, the fact is that whatever they wanted to launch the system at and what they finally did for ($500, $600), the spread was much larger than $100. In fact, when you consider that the losses we're discussing here ($3 billion plus the PS2/PSP profit wipeout) are extremely front-loaded in the PS3's life, the deal is obviously that the initial launch PS3's were losing a ton per console. I just have to think that is mainly due to the BD inclusion, since the other technologies - though new - were being produced on mature(ish) fab technologies.

As time has gone on, we've seen the costs of PS3 manufacture drop precipitously, allowing significant early life cost-cutting (essentially $200) at the same time that the actual loss per console has diminished at an even greater rate. 65nm Cell, taking B/C out, cheaper cooling... all decent contributors. But the biggest one I'd venture has been the dramatic cost reductions in the BD drive inclusion as the manufacturing and economies of scale on that front have begun to rev up.

So - who knows. But for me the single most significant design decision for the PS3 will always have been the Blu-ray inclusion; without it, they could have launched earlier, priced for less, and have lost less.

But like you, I think it may have (may have!) been the right decision anyway, simply based on the bet Sony had riding on BD's victory at the time.

They'd almost have been better off waiting another year, and launching a console that either used cheaper and more matured tech.. so their costs would have been lower to start, or a console that included more features such as a current-gen GPU instead of the RSX, or additional RAM, or started with larger HDD capacity, etc.. so that it would have been clearly superior to the 360.

It seems to me they split the baby in half with the PS3. If they wanted to rush to market, they still could have done so with BD, just scale down the rest of the feature set.

They'd have been better off waiting another year, or tossing some of the ambition and launching earlier. I agree that the launch was one where events collided to make it as painful as possible... but at the same time that was really just bad luck. If I were in their position, I honestly would have been paralyzed by what course to take as well. BD development was delayed just long enough, and HD DVD initial pricing reduced drastically enough in advance of the PS3 threat, that essentially Sony had to decide whether to go full-out on BD or not at a time before the economies made sense.
 
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You sound like there are no other companies than Sony that are selling Blu-ray players...
I don't see how I sound like that, but anyway, what does that have to do with anything? tkf is suggesting PS3 is best BR player, and if it wasn't there, people wouldn't buy BR standalones. That's ridiculous. If Sony can make PS3 a good BR player, they can make an equally good standalone for a lot less.

Mass-production of Blu-laser diodes for PS3 contributed to economies of scale. In addition to hardware, pressing all PS3 software on BD keeps Sony's replication plant busy.
So what? If PS3 had no BR, Sony would have spent far less on disc replication and diodes. Economies of scale aren't going to make up for the fact that 10 times as many PS3's are needed to move the same number of movies.

This is a terrible argument, anyway. The difference between millions and tens of millions doesn't make cost reduction any easier for the latter.

HD-DVD sold 700k players worldwide since launching, almost half of which were XB360 addons. There just wasn't a big market for HD players of any sort. PS3 jump-started the HD market by providing people wanting a games machines with an HD player. I don't think any subsidized hardware would have established an HD player successfully, and the other device incentives were necessary.
There are plenty of people who bought BR standalones and used PS3 primarily as a movie player as it is. Moreover, I've already established that HD-DVD would have sold far less under my proposed scheme (obviously). That's enough for BR to win the war, IMO with greater ease than the way it really happened.

Why would BR need any more of a jump-start than that?
 
3) Components that served an ancillary market/function (Blu-ray)

Need to add the pricey internal hard drive to that since you can make games without it, but it is needed to be blu-ray 2.0 compatible, to be able to download movies, etc...
 
Need to add the pricey internal hard drive to that since you can make games without it, but it is needed to be blu-ray 2.0 compatible, to be able to download movies, etc...

Yeah I was thinking about the hard drive as well - certainly not a 'cheap' inclusion - but it's hard to know where to place it. It is ancillary though, you're right. Not BD related per se as Patsu pointed out, but part of their over-arching digital strategy... slow as it is to roll out.

It's hard to know how to view that in the short vs long-run however, as what cost them a lot now (~$30-40/console?), may in the future end up being a great profit generator for them down the line when the digital catalog increases.
 
BD-Live only requires at least 1 Gb of persistent memory. It doesn't have to be HDD-based.

Sure but you get my point, if they only wanted games then they didn't need it, if they wanted to get in the business of selling additional downloadable stuff then they need mass storage. Basically, the hdd falls into the "ancillary market/function" category from Carls post.
 
Not BD related per se as Patsu pointed out, but part of their over-arching digital strategy... slow as it is to roll out.

It's probably easier to sum up all the losses and credit them under the "Trillion Yen" strategy.

Because of the integrated strategy Howard Stringer adopt, the costs may be distributed throughout the entire group.
 

Kotaku's the one that got this whole entire thread started with their re-hash articles, and this one is just par for the course. Archgamer I'm hoping that none of the stuff mentioned in that piece there was new information for you. :)

Cell's been 65nm for a while now, and RSX at 65nm was known already for this year as well. I'd be very surprised if they went slim on 65nm, although with the confluence of BD drive advances, PSU requirement drops, and chip thermals/cooling it could theoretically be feasible.

But it wouldn't be 'slim' so much as 'slimmer.' In my mind they'd probably wait for 45nm components, or even until the more significant power savings that'll come from 32nm and the move to metal gates.
 
But it wouldn't be 'slim' so much as 'slimmer.' In my mind they'd probably wait for 45nm components, or even until the more significant power savings that'll come from 32nm and the move to metal gates.

Sounds reasonable, the primary focus of the 45 nm shrinkage was to get the power requirements down, but they may want to push it even futher. They may very well want a 45 nm RSX as well before they go slim. I would be very surprised if we saw a PS3 slim model before christmas 2009. Personally I think 2010 may be even more likely.
 
If Sony can make PS3 a good BR player, they can make an equally good standalone for a lot less.

The reason the PS3 is a good BR player is because it´s a god damn computer/console, you can make it do whatever you want. It´s based on a very powerfull CPU it has plenty of memory and persistant storage and build in ethernet. And the price tag on that powerpack is very high.

Cramming all that into a standalone player just for the sake of making a standalone player would have been stupid, especially because they already had a PS3.
 
Sure but you get my point, if they only wanted games then they didn't need it, if they wanted to get in the business of selling additional downloadable stuff then they need mass storage. Basically, the hdd falls into the "ancillary market/function" category from Carls post.

But you do acknowledge that gamers benefit from it?
 
Seems anticipated, but if true Sony best bet would be to put out the PSU (I know some will hate this idea).
 
I don't see how I sound like that, but anyway, what does that have to do with anything? tkf is suggesting PS3 is best BR player, and if it wasn't there, people wouldn't buy BR standalones. That's ridiculous. If Sony can make PS3 a good BR player, they can make an equally good standalone for a lot less.
How could they make a good standalone BD player for a lot less without PS3's influence? Did Panasonic release a superb-quality BD player? Do you suggest subsidization like Toshiba did for HD DVD? It would have cannibalized their own market.
So what? If PS3 had no BR, Sony would have spent far less on disc replication and diodes. Economies of scale aren't going to make up for the fact that 10 times as many PS3's are needed to move the same number of movies.

This is a terrible argument, anyway. The difference between millions and tens of millions doesn't make cost reduction any easier for the latter.
Did you forget one of the bragging points of HD DVD in the early days was its cheaper disc replication cost? Sony had to prevent plants from being idle, otherwise investment in plants would have been wasted and yield would have stayed lower while movie studios jumping ship to use cheaper HD DVD.
 
How could they make a good standalone BD player for a lot less without PS3's influence? Did Panasonic release a superb-quality BD player? Do you suggest subsidization like Toshiba did for HD DVD? It would have cannibalized their own market.
Do you think Sony engineers are retards? If making a fully featured BR player was important for sales, they would do it. They don't need PS3's 'influence' to see, "Oh, that's how we should have done it."

The fact remains that if you strip PS3 of RSX, wifi, HDD, most RAM, and a bunch of other stuff, you have a much cheaper machine that's equally capable of BR playback. If you can't see that then you're an idiot. It's not optimal, but it's way more optimal than PS3, both in terms of unit cost and effect on BRD sales.

It's up to Sony whether they want to keep other manufacturers in the fray or not. They could do it all themselves (HD-DVD isn't any more enticing for Panasonic), or they could give them cheap optical units.

Did you forget one of the bragging points of HD DVD in the early days was its cheaper disc replication cost? Sony had to prevent plants from being idle, otherwise investment in plants would have been wasted and yield would have stayed lower while movie studios jumping ship to use cheaper HD DVD.
Do you really think that Sony couldn't afford to subsidize a few million BRD's? They already did ten times as many for the PS3 when they sold games for the same price as MS did.

Some of you have ridiculous notions of "economies of scale". The first 2M BRD's are more expensive when you ramp quickly, not less. Once you've made a commitment to a technology with long term goals of taking over DVD, it doesn't matter whether you're printing millions of discs per year or tens of millions. The resources devoted to improving yields will be the same and cost reduction will happen at the same pace.
 
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Cramming all that into a standalone player just for the sake of making a standalone player would have been stupid, especially because they already had a PS3.
So first you say that without BR on PS3 nobody would buy standalones since they all sucked. Now you say building a BR player as good at the PS3 but much cheaper would be stupid. :LOL:

You haven't brought up one good point against me and are clearly just arguing for the sake of arguing, even contradicting yourself. If you miraculously put together a decent argument, I'll consider replying again. Good luck.

BTW, have you ever looked at an HD-DVD player? General processor running linux, RAM, networking, and HD-DVD drive.
 
Do you think Sony engineers are retards? If making a fully featured BR player was important for sales, they would do it. They don't need PS3's 'influence' to see, "Oh, that's how we should have done it."

The fact remains that if you strip PS3 of RSX, wifi, HDD, most RAM, and a bunch of other stuff, you have a much cheaper machine that's equally capable of BR playback. If you can't see that then you're an idiot. It's not optimal, but it's way more optimal than PS3, both in terms of unit cost and effect on BRD sales.
I'm confused. Does the "much cheaper machine" equal to the BD player they actually released for $1000 in 2006 in terms of hardware? Let's assume they subsidized it with the money saved by not including BD in PS3, and sold it for the same price as an HD DVD player with a similar spec. Do you think it would beat HD DVD in 2 years like PS3 did, or in less time?
Do you really think that Sony couldn't afford to subsidize a few million BRD's? They already did ten times as many for the PS3 when they sold games for the same price as MS did.
Then Sony had even more interests in keeping economies of scale. It's really weird if they were subsidizing it with no efforts to bleed less...
 
So first you say that without BR on PS3 nobody would buy standalones since they all sucked.

Yes, the HD-DVD players were better afaik, i think the Blu-Ray sales on standalones were very bad and without the PS3 it would have looked bad.

Now you say building a BR player as good at the PS3 but much cheaper would be stupid. :LOL:

Well maybe you read it like that?
I said that making the PS3 possible took billions of dollars, taking that and cramming it into a Blu-Ray player would be stupid considering they already had a Blu-Ray player called a PS3.
Maybe it´s hard to understand?

BTW, have you ever looked at an HD-DVD player? General processor running linux, RAM, networking, and HD-DVD drive.

Yes, i actually made that point several times, but afaik it was only the first one, that of course bleed Toshiba alot of dollars :)

Whats with the hate? you call One and idiot and "threaten" me with not answering my posts. Do you own an extensive HD-DVD collection? You seem very personally involved...
 
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