Texture cache of the N64 vs. that of Playstation

I also prefer n64 look much more. I dont even mind tge low res textures, but the claim it was above ps1 in every area is incorrect. The avarege game had higher res textures (albeit pixelated) and often more geometry complexity (albeit wobbly) on ps1. Banjo and Conker were outliers, they were some of the best looking n64 games, compare it to spyro and crash and they put up a good fight. I'm not saying ps1 was better, I'm saying each made different tradeoffs, and which set of trade offs was best is not so obvious.
 
On the topic of cables, watch out for poorly wired SVideo cables. You can get a checkerboard pattern. I thought it was dithering but it was the cable. Best to avoid those combination cables with SVid and composite.
 
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I also prefer n64 look much more. I dont even mind tge low res textures, but the claim it was above ps1 in every area is incorrect. The avarege game had higher res textures (albeit pixelated) and often more geometry complexity (albeit wobbly) on ps1. Banjo and Conker were outliers, they were some of the best looking n64 games, compare it to spyro and crash and they put up a good fight. I'm not saying ps1 was better, I'm saying each made different tradeoffs, and which set of trade offs was best is not so obvious.
Let's get some data on these ps1 claims of textures and geometry. From you or anybody else, I think it's pure bs mate. The complexity of tooie and conker are leagues ahead of spyro and crash.

Though Spyro at least has no draw distance issues like 99% of other ps1 games, so pretty impressive on insomniac. There's a distinct lack of fog even in the first game.

But geometry is not better than 64 games I would definitely say it's lower. Then you still have simplistic lighting, no filtering and warping. With very simplistic pallets to boot, while something like tooie has more realistic details.

Someone can ask me for proof too but i'll just point to the spec difference for now.
 
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N64 was based on a chipset Sega of America were interested in back in ~1993. SoA asked for various tweaks / enhancements (like Sega got with the DC), got them, then presented it to Sega Japan for consideration as the Megadrive's successor. SoJ chose their own Saturn design instead, based on manufacturing reasons fuck Sega of America.

Three years later, and one process node later, it launched with shit video output, carts instead of CDs ... and still saw several of the defining games of the generation.

N64's texture cache was shit. Default graphics microcode was not suited for all games and Nintendo placed restrictions on what you could do with it based on how much they liked you. The Z buffer was far more advanced than the painters algorithm employed by PS1 and Saturn, but could beat down the machines performance.

And that could be especially problematic as the N64 had a UMA and a shortage of real world bandwidth.

N64 was a forward looking architecture but lacking in performance for a 1996 system. But that's because it was actually kinda dated architecturally when the hardware was available to buy.

1994 was PS1.

1996 was N64.

1998 was Dreamcast.

Dreamcast was so far beyond the N64 that it makes it look like a 1994 machine. And that's because it was a different, and ambitious, take on 1994 technology re factored for cheap manufacturing in 1996.
 
Nobody said 64 didn't have shortcomings, but it still head and shoulders above ps1 and that's not debatable. Oh and carts > cds.

Dreamcast was more state of the art than 64 was when they both launched, but honestly perceptually 64 from ps1 is the bigger jump to me. Just for having proper stable 3d graphics. Hugely disagree that DC shows a 4 year gap in graphics. More like 2 with the addition of higher framerates.

DC had absolutely 0 compromises design wise though, aside from using cds and didn't suffer from poor framerates. Graphically though isn't even in the same league as PS2 let alone GC Xbox
 
Nobody said 64 didn't have shortcomings, but it still head and shoulders above ps1 and that's not debatable. Oh and carts > cds.

Well it's obviously debatable because people are debating it. Your declaration can't change that. And if carts are better than CD's. why has every none mobile Nintendo console abandoned them after the N64?

Dreamcast was more state of the art than 64 was when they both launched, but honestly perceptually 64 from ps1 is the bigger jump to me.

No doubt it is to you.

But in terms of objectivity, in terms of: performance, image quality, hardware features, memory (PS1 3.5 MB -> N64 4MB -> DC twenty-fucking-six MB), connectivity, quality of output modes, colour resolution, output processing ... DC was ahead of the N64 by a staggering degree. In every possible way. By a fucking mile. In some ways it remained above PS2 for it's lifetime.

Just for having proper stable 3d graphics. Hugely disagree that DC shows a 4 year gap in graphics. More like 2 with the addition of higher framerates.

That's because you're a Nintendo fan, and don't actually understand what happened in those four years. And also that the N64 feature set was outdated by 1996 in high end graphics (let alone by 1997, when N64 released in Europe).
 
but honestly perceptually 64 from ps1 is the bigger jump to me. Just for having proper stable 3d graphics. Hugely disagree that DC shows a 4 year gap in graphics. More like 2 with the addition of higher framerates.
Really the N64 was a mixed bag in my eyes. We got cleaner textures due to perspective correct textures and biliniear filtering with the N64 but thats the most noticeable advantage. Overall the N64 wasn't that huge of a leap.
Proper 3D visuals came with the DC and that was indeed a huge leap and could even compete the PS2 in some areas. Maybe your memory is foggy.
I have no idea how can someone consider the PS1->N64 a bigger leap than the N64/PS1->Dreamcast.

The PS1 started solving it's major draw distance issues later on and many N64 games were using fog to cover it.
 
Inappropriate Language
Get your panties out of a bunch blowhard. You're all equally wrong is all. Carts are gone because of cost.

My perception as I said with regards to dreamcast is valid as it's what I think on the actual visual jump, NOT the technical one.
 
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That's right, even Playstation had a game or two doing high res.
I'd be surprised if the Saturn, Jaguar and 3DO didn't have examples too.
Anyone know any examples of how framerate drops, or low steady frame rates where handled in these few games?

The Saturn had a few high resolution games I believe and 60fps (mostly am2 fighters), and dead or alive which was an amazing port of the arcade for its time. Outside am2 it's pretty barron territory.
Bomber man is a notable 2d example supporting 10 players. High Res was required to make it possible.
 
That's right, even Playstation had a game or two doing high res.
I'd be surprised if the Saturn, Jaguar and 3DO didn't have examples too.
Anyone know any examples of how framerate drops, or low steady frame rates where handled in these few games?

Tobal 1 and 2, Tekken 3, Ehrgeiz, Rapid Racer, Rascal, IS Internal Section, Dead or Alive, Bloody Roar 2 I believe run at above average resolutions tha the typical PS1 game.
It would have been interesting if we had a list of rendering resolutions of past games as well
 
Really the N64 was a mixed bag in my eyes. We got cleaner textures due to perspective correct textures and biliniear filtering with the N64 but thats the most noticeable advantage. Overall the N64 wasn't that huge of a leap.
Proper 3D visuals came with the DC and that was indeed a huge leap and could even compete the PS2 in some areas. Maybe your memory is foggy.
I have no idea how can someone consider the PS1->N64 a bigger leap than the N64/PS1->Dreamcast.

The PS1 started solving it's major draw distance issues later on and many N64 games were using fog to cover it.
Nah really the games I play on 64 generally don't have fog. All the rare platformers, , zelda rayman star wars naboo DK racing etc. etc. Games like spyro were pretty rare in terms of draw distance early on. Look at the horrible pop up in the wipeout games.

We have games like rayman 2 where not only were the visuals greatly diminished on playstation but levels had to be cut up into chunks, and even on the high res mode on 64 it runs fine. Even bigger games like Tooie would fare even worse on PS. CD's provided 0 benefit to graphics and the actual game data not including audio and fmv was comparable to cart sizes.

As I said if you look at the paper specs, DC > N64 is indeed a bigger jump but yes, in terms of going from an unstable pixelated mess to 64, I find that a bigger jump than 64 to DC. I really think some people like to pump up playstation because carts *feel* old, and they then do mental gymnastics around that to make it seem like 64 is weaker than it is. If the 64 had cds we wouldn't even be talking about this because the developers like square, and a better public perception would have been present.
 
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I didn't like PS1 much, but while N64 has the 3D feature set, it has very poor fill rate. I am very fond of N64 though. Still, DC games had striking fluidity and higher resolution and that was a big shift. It really changed basic playability in many cases. N64 has major titles that are under 10 fps sometimes because it was just unavoidable.
 
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I didn't like PS1 much, but while N64 has the 3D feature set, it has very poor fill rate. I am very fond of N64 though. Still, DC games had striking fluidity and higher resolution and that was a big shift. It really changed basic playability in many cases. N64 has major titles that are under 10 fps sometimes because it was just unavoidable.

Occasional drops to 10 maybe but that far from represents the majority of play. Ps1 games were not locked 30fps I don't know where these ideas come from.
Notice no one in here is providing data for these claims. 64 had over 500mb/s bandwidth and with the expansion pak 9 total mbs. Ps1 had 3.5 megs and a limited bandwidth of 132 mb/s. 64 actually had 4.5 megs, as 512kb was used for AA. Doubled to 9 with the pak.

This forum remains unobjective with regards to Nintendo hardware.
 
Actually, I'm referring to playing my N64. I play it a few times a year usually. Recently bought one with UltraHDMI. It is interesting to me how some of the biggest games, like Perfect Dark, Goldeneye, and Turok 2/3 have barely playable frame rate, that is so bad the gameplay is designed to work around it. Forgiving auto-aim, slow AI baddies, etc. Turok 2 even has nasty control input lag. But the world was mostly ok with it back then because it was the best there was.

I have little experience with PS1. I bought one way back just for Gran Turismo and MGS. Barely played anything else on it because I didn't like the visuals.

I picked up a DC about 8 years ago out of curiosity. I just wanted to check out a few of the arcade conversions. Though I really liked Draconus Cult of the Wyrm. The main aspect that impressed me with DC was the fluidity with racers and such, that you don't see in N64 games besides like FZero and Smash Bros. DC was the first to really bring that kind of high frame rate gaming to consoles en masse. The gamepad is a POS however.
 
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Actually, I'm referring to playing my N64. I play it a few times a year usually. Recently bought one with UltraHDMI. It is interesting to me how some of the biggest games, like Perfect Dark, Goldeneye, and Turok 2/3 have barely playable frame rate, that is so bad the gameplay is designed to work around it. Forgiving auto-aim, slow AI baddies, etc. Turok 2 even has nasty control input lag. But the world was mostly ok with it back then because it was the best there was.

I have little experience with PS1. I bought one way back just for Gran Turismo and MGS. Barely played anything else on it because I didn't like the visuals.

I picked up a DC about 8 years ago out of curiosity. I just wanted to check out a few of the arcade conversions. Though I really liked Draconus Cult of the Wyrm. The main aspect that impressed me with DC was the fluidity with racers and such, that you don't see in N64 games besides like FZero and Smash Bros. DC was the first to really bring that kind of high frame rate gaming to consoles en masse. The gamepad is a POS however.
I grant those fps don't run well. Doom 64 and quake 2 run a lot better, and the former actually has really impressive lighting for the time.

Maybe world is not enough by eurocom runs better than rare's shooters? I'll have to check that out.

I agree with you on DC framerates, I think that and image quality was easily the bigger improvement over 64 rather than visuals. I do wonder how much further DC could have been pushed visually if given a 6 year cycle.
 
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Doom 64 and quake 2 run a lot better, and the former actually has really impressive lighting for the time.

Maybe world is not enough by eurocom runs better than rare's shooters? I'll have to check that out.
Doom64 is a great Doom for sure. I'm not huge on the simple gameplay anymore though. I actually beat Quake2 a year ago. The controls are tricky and it doesn't quite run fast enough for good reaction time, but I love how it is almost entirely original.

TWINE is interesting too. I've played through a chunk of it. It's not quite GoldenEye, but it is a good time. Sometimes it's not clear what you're supposed to do so I've had to look at walkthroughs. It has a High Color mode that is I guess literally changing color depth. Difficult to tell just what is changing there.
 
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Nah really the games I play on 64 generally don't have fog. All the rare platformers, , zelda rayman star wars naboo DK racing etc. etc. Games like spyro were pretty rare in terms of draw distance early on. Look at the horrible pop up in the wipeout games.

We have games like rayman 2 where not only were the visuals greatly diminished on playstation but levels had to be cut up into chunks, and even on the high res mode on 64 it runs fine. Even bigger games like Tooie would fare even worse on PS. CD's provided 0 benefit to graphics and the actual game data not including audio and fmv was comparable to cart sizes.

As I said if you look at the paper specs, DC > N64 is indeed a bigger jump but yes, in terms of going from an unstable pixelated mess to 64, I find that a bigger jump than 64 to DC. I really think some people like to pump up playstation because carts *feel* old, and they then do mental gymnastics around that to make it seem like 64 is weaker than it is. If the 64 had cds we wouldn't even be talking about this because the developers like square, and a better public perception would have been present.
There are games that suffered greatly on the N64 too such us many major racing franchise of the PS1 that found its way on the N64. Games like Quake 2 had a noticeable hit on texture quality. Basically, depending on the game, some were better on the N64 some better on PS1.
For example this case. Polugon numbers a detail on the N64 took a hit, but has a cleaner image. Pop up on the PS1 was replaced with a gradual fading on the n64. It looks like the PS1 has a bigger draw distance too.

The PS1 improved hugely the draw distance later on. Wipeout 3 Special Edition for example has the same tracks as Wipeout 1 and you can clearly see a huge improvement in draw distance, you can barely spot a pop up. Ridge Racer Type 4 was one of the finest titles technically in that respect in addition to Wipeout 1.

That said, the N64 did have improvements in many areas that made it's games age much better than the PS1. Games that were designed with the n64's hardware in mind showed a quality that was unmatched by the PS1 such as Zelda.

But I disagree totally about the leap between the PS1->N64 vas N64->DC. The PS1 could compete the N64 here and there depending on the games. But neither came close to the DC. The difference the DC offered was huge not just on paper.
Polygon numbers per second reached milions, textures finally looked like their real life counterparts, lighting effects were on a different level, and a great deal of its games were running on 60fps.
The DC was a real next generational leap, whereas the N64 was a 1.5 leap.
 
Ill be honest im a little surprised at the nascar example, must've been an issue with developer resources. If you didn't write your own tools or worked closely with Nintendo the machine was more limited. I wouldn't use it as an example of the consoles power though like I wouldn't with DOA 2 on ps2. Still, I would submit that ease of use was a win for ps1.

Back in the day I only played 64 exclusives or games tailored for the machine so I wouldn't have known about any ports looking worse on 64. Perhaps that happened often on sports games?

Side note I watched footage on 007 world is not enough and bought the game, it does seem to run smoothly and looks better than goldeneye
 
There are games that suffered greatly on the N64 too such us many major racing franchise of the PS1 that found its way on the N64. Games like Quake 2 had a noticeable hit on texture quality.
Quake 2 on N64 is interesting. It's not much like the PC game. It's basically a new game built with the same monsters and guns and set in locations that look similar to the PC game. I imagine the PC game simply could not be ported and this was necessary. I even wonder if the engine is more Quake64 than idTech 2. Even Quake 1 had to be simplified.
 
Quake 2 on N64 is interesting. It's not much like the PC game. It's basically a new game built with the same monsters and guns and set in locations that look similar to the PC game. I imagine the PC game simply could not be ported and this was necessary. I even wonder if the engine is more Quake64 than idTech 2. Even Quake 1 had to be simplified.
If you can get past the jerky animation Q2 actually looks better on 64 with better lighting and skyboxes and runs better than voodoo 1 Q2.

I have no idea if a voodoo 1 in a console setting would be better than 64 but voodoo 2 is obviously better.
 
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